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Marximus
October 11th, 2001, 10:28 PM
I'm considering purchasing one of the ProDrag intercoolers, very reasonably priced at &#36750 - your opinions? Can anyone recommend another alternative? Mailorder is fine too.

CYA
October 12th, 2001, 02:16 PM
mark... if you're trying to build something good then don't skimp. besides you make tonnes of money! haha.

but if you're just building something that is "decent" then... yeah 750 is pretty cheap... i.e. might be worth it.

why don't you check with corky?

spearco might be an alternative. a lot of people run them but that doesn't mean it's good. i don't run an intercooler yet so i haven't done my homework in this area. but with all the aftermarket support for my car it's not hard to do.

have fun!

cya

Marximus
October 12th, 2001, 02:34 PM
I just got off the phone with Cartech. Corky wasn't in, but the engineer I talked to schooled me on intercoolers, but then again everyone thinks their intercoolers are the best.

Here is a pic of what I had:
<a href="http://www.planet.eon.net/~mseto/DCP_0063.JPG

I" target="_blank">http://www.planet.eon.net/~mseto/DCP_0063.JPG

I</a> may consider something more import looking, with end tanks on the left/right. But as Cartech was telling me, the longer end tanks make for an intercooler with less pressure drop, while still maintaining excellent cooling efficiency. I do have to admit, the Cartech has done me well. I may have Corky custom make me one with side end tanks while keeping the same plumbing.

I think Ill pass on the Pro Drag intercooler, I'm sure its a nice unit, but being untested I'll stick with the Cartech or Spearco units.

TurboBlueNX
October 12th, 2001, 03:02 PM
Apex Mark, check out some of the Apex-i cores in the catalogue, I have an Aepx-i catalogue if you would like to see it.

You want that "Maxximum Marximus" effect going on...

CYA
October 12th, 2001, 03:13 PM
hmmm... longer end tanks... that's probably why incon has "end tanks" that go length wise instead of height. learn something new everyday. well... good luck with it. just make sure you have a goal in mind.

cya

Marximus
October 13th, 2001, 09:28 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from CYA on 3:13 pm on Oct. 12, 2001
hmmm... longer end tanks... that's probably why incon has "end tanks" that go length wise instead of height. *learn something new everyday. *well... good luck with it. *just make sure you have a goal in mind.

cya[/b][/quote]

Corky states the the length of the tubes is what causes pressure drop. So you're better off having many short tubes than fewer longer ones.

But correct me if I'm wrong - based on physics, if the intercooler is more efficient, won't cooling the charge reduce the pressure by more?

CYA
October 13th, 2001, 09:51 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Marximus on 9:28 am on Oct. 13, 2001
if the intercooler is more efficient, won't cooling the charge reduce the pressure by more?[/b][/quote]

yes... and that's a good thing. http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif it's that whole denser air charge again. http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

cya

Loose
October 13th, 2001, 11:18 AM
What is wrong with your current intercooler? Is it too small. You are fortunate to have an intercooler with the end tanks set up as such.

Having a top down setup means there are more tubes, with shorter length. The more tubes the less losses. The shorter the tubes, the less losses. This is the best setup for minimal pressure drop. It's just like your intake plumbing, would you rather it have lots of bends and kinks, or be straight?

Intercooler efficiency is is more relative to the size, design, and material selection of the core. Whether it's top-down or side-side has less of an affect on effieciency. I can't remember off the top of my head which one is better.

Remember, there are essentially 2 factors in selecting an intercooler: pressure drop, and efficiency at a given flow level. Unless you have the efficiency charts for the intercoolers, it is very hard to select the proper unit.

Just buy what Corky tells you to:)

Marximus
October 13th, 2001, 12:02 PM
There's nothing wrong with the intercooler I have. B/C of an accident I now have an option to go with another intercooler if I want.

I may just end up back at the cartech one again.

The reason why I brought up the pressure drop is that Corky states that choose an intercooler with the least pressure drop, but is that not contradictory to efficient cooling?

CYA
October 14th, 2001, 10:40 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Marximus on 12http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif2 pm on Oct. 13, 2001
The reason why I brought up the pressure drop is that Corky states that choose an intercooler with the least pressure drop, but is that not contradictory to efficient cooling?[/b][/quote]

nope... i was going to mention that before. "pressure drop" is being thought of in the wrong sense above. just think of that denser charge mark. http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

cya

Loose
October 14th, 2001, 12:59 PM
Pressure drop is caused by 2 things:

1. The air becoming cooler, and more dense.
2. Frictional losses within the intercooler.

You want to minimize the #2. How much of the total pressure drop is caused by each? I don't know.

I am guessing that the difference in pressure drop for #1 comparing 2 i/c's:one i/c with 90% efficicency vs one with 85% efficiency is marginal.

Marximus
October 14th, 2001, 10:34 PM
Good reply Loose,

I imagine Corky meant the frictional loss also.

Great to have you on board!

Chris Seto
October 15th, 2001, 10:51 AM
Hey guys I've found the Top to Bottom do a great job for a couple reasons.
1)There are many more tubes so the air can divide its self up and go slower through it meaning more time to cool.
2)Less friction because more tubes to flow.(end to end may only have 8-10 tubes but top to bottoms have 25-40 depending on size.)
Two intercoolers with the same basic out side dimensions the Top to Bottom will always out perform.
click my web icon to see one!
Road race eng in LA sell this one with 2.5 inch in and out.
Price?

Marximus
October 15th, 2001, 08:06 PM
The Cartech IC I have is &#36560US. The core measure 16x8x3".

The IC you have is very similiar to mine, but you've got 2 more tubes (yes I'm bored so I counted).

After learning about intercooler designs, I'm definately sticking with the cartech. I was thinking of getting this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=596559396&r=0&t=0

but it goes against good ic design according to Corky.

Chris Seto
October 15th, 2001, 09:38 PM
What size of engine and turbo do you have ?
What is your goal?
I got mine because it has the highest effeciency for its size.
Its the real deal spearco at a clones price.

Marximus
October 15th, 2001, 11:27 PM
T25/28 on a 1.6L. I'd like to get 250-275 out of it at 12psi.

Chris Seto
October 16th, 2001, 10:31 AM
T-25
HMMMMMMMMM
Is that the same size that came on the 2nd gen Talons.
I think it was rated at 375CFM @ 14.7 PSI.
If you want 250-275 out of a 1.6L your Turbo may be way past its effeciency range and cause major pre-ignition.
Best to get a turbo that is in its effeciency range at your HP.
My I suggest a cheap 1st gen talon turbo.
14B is about 450CFM @ 14.7 PSI.
The charge will be cooler and your turbo won't burn up.
Ask Talon96 how long his T25 lasted at around 275 HP.
he also had a bigger engine that had more base power.
You will have to have a very free flowing Topend to make that HP at 12 psi.

Looses bud has a good 14B for sale I believe.

CYA
October 16th, 2001, 11:14 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Private on 10:31 am on Oct. 16, 2001
T-25
HMMMMMMMMM
Is that the same size that came on the 2nd gen Talons.
I think it was rated at 375CFM @ 14.7 PSI.
If you want 250-275 out of a 1.6L your Turbo may be way past its effeciency range and cause major pre-ignition.
Best to get a turbo that is in its effeciency range at your HP.
My I suggest a cheap 1st gen talon turbo.
14B is about 450CFM @ 14.7 PSI.
The charge will be cooler and your turbo won't burn up.
Ask Talon96 how long his T25 lasted at around 275 HP.
he also had a bigger engine that had more base power.
You will have to have a very free flowing Topend to make that HP at 12 psi.

Looses bud has a good 14B for sale I believe.
[/b][/quote]

just a side note mark if you're going to search for a new turbo. if you can compare lbs/min when looking at turbos use that. measurements for CFM have no "standards" and can be skewed to make each company's product look good.

cya

Chris Seto
October 16th, 2001, 11:40 AM
Not to start a fight here but I've found a page that has
Factory specs on lots of turbo's and the standard is
1bar(14.7psi) @ 72F ambi at a standard retriction=CFM.
LBs is a good way to go but you must be able to read those charts when you start to mix and match wheels and housings. I always just use the factory wheel and housing specs when making a hybrid then you now you have at least that much with maybe a little more from the tweeking.
Still think that a Generic 14B out of a first gen would be good for that 1.6L. Their a dime a dozen compared to new.

Chris Seto
October 16th, 2001, 11:59 AM
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/10faqA.html
This page is shows standard 14.7 psi vs CFM
and some peak HP under perfect flow circumstances at
higher boost.
Take it as you want but nost feel this is a good start.

Loose
October 16th, 2001, 12:29 PM
CYA,

As far as I know:

CFM = (lb/hr) divided by (air density at Std. condtions)

Thus, you can convert back and forth...

CYA
October 16th, 2001, 04:02 PM
straight from one of the world's top turbo gurus... he's the man behind the development of the lingenfelter twin turbo corvette.

"There does not need to be any other reason THAN varying temperatures. However, it does not just rest with ambients since compressor efficiency obviously effects discharge temperatures. There is no industry standard, although Garrett's has been 85F and 28.4" HG for a long time. CFM is good for measuring airflow where there are only minor temp variations in the flow duct, such as through a carburetor.

Regards,
Dave"

http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

cya

Chris Seto
October 16th, 2001, 10:15 PM
Then mitsu must use a diifrent standard.
Gee who would have guessed mitsu uses a easier
standard.
Easier to get CFM at lower temps and 14.7 psi(sea level)

Marximus
October 16th, 2001, 10:59 PM
It's actually a T25/T28 Hybrid. a T25 compressor side, with a T28 Exhaust side - or the other way around?

This was sized by Corky for the best mix of response and potential power. I don't plan on pushing past 250 until I get several weak links first. Appreciate all the suggestions.

Chris Seto
October 17th, 2001, 12:49 AM
http://turbochargers.com/currentspecials/FMIC.htm
Check this one out.
Will it fit your car?
They can make you different pipes if you want.

Marximus
October 19th, 2001, 11:26 AM
Quite nice, but after the pipes I'm afraid I'll be worse off &#36 wise.

I'm going to stick with the Cartech. Less hassle and no one I know has complaints. Thanks for the suggestion.

Chris Seto
October 19th, 2001, 11:48 AM
I don't think they would change one , they would just build it to your specs for the same price.
It would be easier to put straight pipes on anyways.
http://www.asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Never hurts to email them!

Marximus
October 20th, 2001, 02:01 AM
I agree but without seeing how my old one mounts and how the pipes run I dont tink it would be possible for anyone to build a intercoohler that wouldn't require any specific modifications.

Chris Seto
October 20th, 2001, 11:16 AM
No doubt , well I guess you'll have to take a look when the time is right.