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Thread: Power Engine Earring

  1. #1
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    Default Power Engine Earring

    Since that other thread http://forums.780tuners.com/showthread.php?122142-Power-Engineering&p=1808479#post1808479 simply HAD to be closed, because reasons, I was wondering and have no thread to ask it in, so now I start this one.

    What are the guidelines for licenced process operator requirements in plants? I was just talking with a guy who said something about >10,000kW "of steam" and that came from some BS calc of square meters of something multiplied by 10.
    Shouldn't it really be based on boiler capacities and steam production in a pressure-temp discussion?
    Let's say you had a hypothetical, small refinery with very little steam use but you had a reaction in your process that was very exothermic and you used that heat source to make steam. Would that be treated differently than a boiler and all its associated fired equipment controls and water treatment, etc etc? Or, would you potentially still need a First Class PE based on whatever formula ABSA uses?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by JugZ View Post
    Since that other thread http://forums.780tuners.com/showthre...79#post1808479 simply HAD to be closed, because reasons, I was wondering and have no thread to ask it in, so now I start this one.

    What are the guidelines for licenced process operator requirements in plants? I was just talking with a guy who said something about >10,000kW "of steam" and that came from some BS calc of square meters of something multiplied by 10.
    Shouldn't it really be based on boiler capacities and steam production in a pressure-temp discussion?
    Let's say you had a hypothetical, small refinery with very little steam use but you had a reaction in your process that was very exothermic and you used that heat source to make steam. Would that be treated differently than a boiler and all its associated fired equipment controls and water treatment, etc etc? Or, would you potentially still need a First Class PE based on whatever formula ABSA uses?
    No, you make steam with anything and its a boiler and it will have a power rating.

    I make steam with 850C Ethane/Ethylene in a cross exchanger, its now a boiler and thus has a power rating. You could potentially not need a 1st though depending on what that rating is of course.

    http://www.absa.ca/home/faq/owner-faq/
    Last edited by dc2696; April 6th, 2017 at 10:26 PM.

    -the faster you go
    -the longer you live

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc2696 View Post
    No, you make steam with anything and its a boiler and it will have a power rating.

    I make steam with 850C Ethane/Ethylene in a cross exchanger, its now a boiler and thus has a power rating. You could potentially not need a 1st though depending on what that rating is of course.

    http://www.absa.ca/home/faq/owner-faq/
    Unless things changed and ABSA got with the times(unlikely), then slave steam is treated quite a bit differently and not really recognized as a boiler. Technically if you work industrial and don't actually operate a boiler in the Utilities side of things, you don't need a Power Engineering ticket at all. I know Syncrude in particular actually had to petition ABSA with a pile of documentation and description of their processes and equipment to get an approval from ABSA to allow us to be credited our hours.

    From that whole debacle with Syncrude, ABSA might now be starting to recognize that a PE ticket is justifiable for something outside of operating a true fired boiler.

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    Thanks for these answers, although they are very different!
    The link mentions every m^2 = 10kW so that's a start unless what Viktimize mentions is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dc2696 View Post
    No, you make steam with anything and its a boiler and it will have a power rating.

    I make steam with 850C Ethane/Ethylene in a cross exchanger, its now a boiler and thus has a power rating. You could potentially not need a 1st though depending on what that rating is of course.

    http://www.absa.ca/home/faq/owner-faq/
    First Class PE's are extremely rare, though. Aren't they? I believe Shell Scotford has ONE, total. I'm thinking Viktimize is onto something.
    A 33' heat exchanger with 1000 tubes of 1.25" would be about 1,000kW (water on shell side). Add up 10 of those and you are suddenly mandated to have a First Class guy? That seems odd.

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    What does this have to do with earrings?
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLJDM View Post
    Rob with an awesome post as always.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JugZ View Post
    First Class PE's are extremely rare, though. Aren't they? I believe Shell Scotford has ONE, total. I'm thinking Viktimize is onto something.
    A 33' heat exchanger with 1000 tubes of 1.25" would be about 1,000kW (water on shell side). Add up 10 of those and you are suddenly mandated to have a First Class guy? That seems odd.
    Sometimes they are rare. Depends on the company.

    I am one, and there are 6 others at the company I work for...

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by JugZ View Post
    First Class PE's are extremely rare, though. Aren't they? I believe Shell Scotford has ONE, total. I'm thinking Viktimize is onto something.
    A 33' heat exchanger with 1000 tubes of 1.25" would be about 1,000kW (water on shell side). Add up 10 of those and you are suddenly mandated to have a First Class guy? That seems odd.
    That doesn't seem odd to me, you need only need one 1st class ticketed guy for the plant. On all of Dow's site we only need 2, one for our site and one for the power plant.

    As for Victors comment I've never heard of the term slave steam, a HRSG is basically the same thing yet it's still a boiler in ABSA's eyes so I'm not sure how they or if they differentiate how exactly the equipment is fired.

    Wesam should be answering all these questions since he's the smart one here anyway lol.

    Dean

    -the faster you go
    -the longer you live

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dc2696 View Post
    That doesn't seem odd to me, you need only need one 1st class ticketed guy for the plant. On all of Dow's site we only need 2, one for our site and one for the power plant.

    As for Victors comment I've never heard of the term slave steam, a HRSG is basically the same thing yet it's still a boiler in ABSA's eyes so I'm not sure how they or if they differentiate how exactly the equipment is fired.

    Wesam should be answering all these questions since he's the smart one here anyway lol.

    Dean
    Haha, you pretty much got it covered.

    Honestly sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to a indirectly fired/process heater being classified as a boiler. It depends on how the company initially submits their registration approval, and how ABSA interprets it.

    The thing with a HRSG is that at some point it is directly fired. Whether it is the GT in a GT setup or the Aux firing on it, etc. The flue gas ends up boiling the water.

    I think Vic is referring to slave steam as something that uses the waste heat from lets say a Hydrocracking process to make steam through an exchanger, usually those vessels require no ticket, or a 4th at the most.

    We have two glycol heaters at my job which are rated as a 1st Class Power Plant, if you see them, you would never think they were.

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