| Maxt |
I would like to ask the Constable what he thinks of photo enforcement and red light camera in particular..
I myseld see this is as just another form of Taxation, I full understand though the I will probably get the standard issue response, as, if anyone from a police office talks about it in a negative light, the media tends to pick it up and run with it.
Here is what I see as problem with red light camera's:
1) The timing of the lights are manipulable to the point that infractions can be increased or reduced by the timing of the yellow, more revenue just shorten the yellow up.
2) The timing of intersections in sequence can be set that, upon set off from an intersection from a green, the next light can be set so that the majority of the motorists from the first intersection, will hit the Camera equipped intersection on a yellow. This can be seen in Calgary, on Sarcee trial southbound, if you leave the intersection of 17th ave and sarcee on a green, accelarate moderatle to the speed limit exactly, you will hit the camera equipeed intersection every time on a yellow during peak driving times, I tested the theory 5 times, 5 times it proved itself.
3) Can the motorist have a fair chance to defend themselves if the ticket is received so long after the offence, the motorist is unaware of the circumstances or simply can't remember them.
4) The statistics are manipulable as well, but research show that most red light that are run intentionally are run by people in stolen cars, or people fleeing the police, what good is a fine for the registered owner in those cases? Red lights that are run unintentionally, are by people that are not paying attention, and that means that people who were daydreaming and went through an intersection also did not see the redlight camera's or there signage, did the camera stop them from running the light , no, it took 287 dollars out of their pocket though, was there any purpose or tangible result from that, no, if you think that will stop people from day dreaming, you are asking people to stop being human.
5) Only one camera can monitor one way of a four way intersection, however CPS claims a 21% reduction in accidents, however they won't cite which accidents have been reduced, and where.Also this only includes reported accidents. From my own observations rear end accidents are now an all to familiar occurence at red light camera equipped accidents, which in my neck of the woods, leads to excessive traffic backup, and put more people at risk of injury as vehicle density grows exponentially, that occcurence is a direct resuly of the camera on the corner, how does that contribute to public safety.
6) Large tractor trailer trucks often cannot stop for alot of the lights, how does ticketing the owner of the trailer of a semi truck, decrease the mass of the truck or the increase the attention span/ability of the driver? Most semi trucks are not in any way actually affiliated with the company that has registered the trailer.
7) Is there a better way? Yes, a flashing light, always will atract attention, other than just a camera flash,the money should instead be make a change to affect those that can be affected. A flashing yellow would be a far more affective way of gaining the attention of those proceeding towards an intersection, or like in B.C., a flashing green. Those intent on running Redlights to save time, if there are those kind of people, are probably going to be fully aware of what intersections are camera equipped, and will continue to do what they do at intersection so not equipped, no change in driver attitude.
I see this as a program introduced as basically a money maker, as it does nothing to actually change the way the intersection works, and how poeple interact with it, its easily defeated by those aware of how it works, and even when an offense is supposedly recorded, it did NOTHING to stop that person from running the light, in the first place. And thats the same as speed photo, if a person goes through an speed photo setup , and they are doing say 50 km/h over the limit, they get a ticket, but they continued driving that speed for how long after they passed the photo radar? Traffic safety is the priority here? Not with happenings like that.
I await your responce, just try to forget who your employer is while you write it..Maxt |
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| VerbotenZ34 |
Personally, I think the road-based forms of taxation (Photo/Red Light) are just results of failures in other areas. No offense Jimbo, but I know police departments are understaffed and underbudgeted, and as a result they can't go into the community and educate people. These road controls are means to control behaviour, and they are poor controls at that.
People don't connect the negative punishment with the offending behaviour beacuse of long waits to recieve the ticket, or they simply retain the attitude of "I'll just pay it, but if that camera wasn't there I wouldn't have been caught!" When people don't connect the punishment with the offending behaviour, there isn't any change in attitude that the cameras are meant to effect.
I don't like them. Even though I accept the revenue arguement as a sad fact, I think a proactive approach would be more beneficial.
Verboten |
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| DeathBy240 |
quote:
Originally posted by Maxt
1) The timing of the lights are manipulable to the point that infractions can be increased or reduced by the timing of the yellow, more revenue just shorten the yellow up.
I could be wrong but isnt there a set time for how long a yellow light has to be? |
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| Flex |
| Well if they use more red light cameras and photo radar and have less speed traps then thats fine with me. Keeps the demerits off if you do happen to get a ticket. Also free up officers to do actual police work and not spending time babysitting the roads. |
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| MightyMidget |
blah blah blah blah blah.....this point is that people know when they run red lights.....they do it on purpose......end of story!!!
S |
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| Maxt |
quote:
Originally posted by schlong69
blah blah blah blah blah.....this point is that people know when they run red lights.....they do it on purpose......end of story!!!
S
On the point of speed traps, there are greater chances of police solving other crimes with more direct interaction with the public....
If a car was stolen, and was speeding or ran a red light, all we get is a photo of the car... If they pulled the car over, what better way to find out if its stolen, or the person has warrants, drugs in possesion or weapons..real police work eh? :rolleyes: ...
Schlong, I guess your attention span didn't last long enough to get through my first post....Maxt |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by Maxt
quote:
Originally posted by schlong69
blah blah blah blah blah.....this point is that people know when they run red lights.....they do it on purpose......end of story!!!
S
On the point of speed traps, there are greater chances of police solving other crimes with more direct interaction with the public....
If a car was stolen, and was speeding or ran a red light, all we get is a photo of the car... If they pulled the car over, what better way to find out if its stolen, or the person has warrants, drugs in possesion or weapons..real police work eh? :rolleyes: ...
Schlong, I guess your attention span didn't last long enough to get through my first post....Maxt
no it didn't.....its called the "enter" key.....space things out a bit and peoples eyes would not hurt after........AND I very much KNOW and agree with you about getting guys out there stopping cars but the fact is that there are NOT enough police officers to be doing traffic stops all day......too many calls.
blah blah blah......more cash cow shit
AND don't call me on this cause I know all to well about "real work"
S |
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| 180sx |
| i think the main point is that human nature is to brake laws, otherwise we would have a perfect world but nothing is perfect, we don't run red lights on purpose alll the time , maybe if city desided to spend more time on cleaning snow dropping some send on black ice by the intersection people could stop easier, and its not a speed issue i was rolling like 15 kms an hour on 97street overpass towards a yellow light tried a fulll stop rolled right through like 3 meters on pure black ice down the hill whos fault? well i get the ticket its all about $$$ and cops no offence to jim speed when they don't have to, turn lights on to go through the red light turn them off after and cruise 60 again what is that?on hurry to get a donut (make that f@cker pay a ticket too is he any better than me ?!!! he aint on call cuz still only going 50-60 after running the light) they crash ,couse acidents that have taken lives, don't follow procedures, smoke and swear while on duty. aren't cops supose to be an example to our motorist they sure show us how to drive, thats why people speed and run red lights on purpose. after all this cameras and radars we still have people speeding so its not inforcing its just makeking more and more $$$ just like insurance companies PROFIT IS YOUR ANSWER> :thumbsdown: |
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| DeathBy240 |
quote:
Originally posted by 180sx
they crash ,couse acidents that have taken lives, don't follow procedures, smoke and swear while on duty. aren't cops supose to be an example to our motorist they sure show us how to drive, thats why people speed and run red lights on purpose.
Everyone can crash a car, I dont think they do it on purpose. It happens when your job requires lots of driving. You don't ever swear when at work? You never smoke at work(I'm assuming you smoke here)? You are saying there are people out there who run lights on purpose and speed because they have seen cops do it, and they think they are proving some kind of point? |
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| 180sx |
| no what i'm saying is the people who enforce law supose to be a good example to society and that is a job requerment. its like telling your son no to swear and smoking is bad, while you puff away on a cigaret in front of him and screem that f@cker while watching hockey. im saying if they the people we supose to look up to and enforce the law don't do their duty to society how do u expect society not to do the same. in regards to crashes i mean crashes and acidents that were cosed by not following prosedures or just being lazy.so everything starts somewhere and getting our police force to act like responsible citizens while on duty would be a good start no more sitting at tim hortons all day, no more just going through the lights, cancell red lights cameras and let them work. |
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| DeathBy240 |
| "Do as I say, not as I do" |
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| redbaron303 |
Yes law enforcement is suppose to set a good example. I have witnessed the St. Albert RCMP speed excessively w/out their lights on (I'm following them doing 20+km/h over the limit). They'll blow traffic lights w/ their lights on and turn them off on the otherside (I've heard this is so they're nto tied up at a light in case of an emergency, not that turning your lights on if you got the call wouldn't do the same thing). I know a lot of ppl that swear on the job, some that even take smoke breaks... Some of the officers aren't the best ppl for the job and sure as hell don't set the best Examples out there, but there are the ones that we shoudl respect as you'll never know when it's your life they're helping save/protect. :)
On the subject of RedLight Camera's, hell even photoradar. I like the idea because there are no demerits associated w/ any of the tickets. If I'm going to break laws I'd assume not have my insurance go through the roof and just go pay some lame ass ticket and "keep on truckin" ahaha :) I don't find them to be a deterent in any sort of way, but rather more of a cause of "careless" driving (that term being used lightly). Who's ever accelerated hard off a set of lights and seen that damn van and proceeded to slam on their brakes?! Or driving on whitemud/170st and you see the van and slam on the brakes... I'll say it's just as easy to cause an accident because your'e speeding and watching for these vans and redlight camera'd intersections so you don't get tickets than you are concerned about the road in front of you. This goes for the redlight cameras too, on an icy day or a rainy day, you hit the point of no return and the light goes yellow and slam on your brakes, you'll probably slid out in to the intersection and get a ticket if not cause an accident because you're trying to avoid getting that ticket. I'm not so sure putting actual police officers lives in danger of stopping speeding cars (3000lbs car, 200lbs person...) is worth it, or trying to stop someone who's probably just jumped on teh gas and blown a light... If I was the officer I wouldn't try to stop them, at least not like the ones I've been stopped by, they're crazy to jump out infront of the car... *what if* the brakes didnt' work right...
So, point here is: red light camera's are a cash cow, just something more to say "hey bend over and pay this ticket." I guess the deterent is you'll run outta money before they run out of film, but for some people money isn't a big deal and they probably don't even pay attention to what th eticket was for when they get it and just go pay it. Hell, if i get either photoradar or redlight I'll take the time if I have spare time and go fight them in court they'll always give you a nice reduction and you can go pay it and be on your way and you're insurance co will never find out. So cashcow :bigthumbup: because they're just weakening your pocket book, not detering you from donig anything and maybe even helping you cause an accident in the process of "being on the lookout" for their photo devices. |
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| littledan |
| cash grab. end of story. |
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| REFLUX |
holy shit not another one of these threads...
can anyone give a nice little summary of what MaxT wrote in his first post??? |
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| Copper |
I 've read a couple of these cash cow posts regarding photo radar, red light cams etc...
And I have found a few key points
1) Photo anything is a cashcow with good intentions.....
2) These photo tickets don't deter anyone from speeding or running red lights, why, because the little ticket is small compared to what the insurance jack up would be if they were getting demerits. If photo tickets gave demerits (which i know they can't because you can't prove the driver) they would be much more effective I'm sure, but as was stated many times above, "I like photo radar, keeps the demerits off" (PS - not attacking anyone personally, just making a point)
3) You can complain all you want, one simple point remains, yes, there a cash cow, but there only making money off those that break the law.
In closing....It does suck that so much money gets takin by these things, and the fact that the money probably isn't being spent the way we think it should be. So what to do. Personally, I dunno, what can we do, as a group, community, city??? Seriously, I don't know about you guys but i'm gettin tired of reading these threads, getting pissed off about it, but nothing getting done just blowin off steam.
So, I target this question to you Jimbo (just cuz your so wise) but also to anyone else that has an idea or suggestion etc..
What Can We Do? (I know not speeding and running red lights are the ideal option, but i mean in the sense to stop photo tickets and look at better solutions or somthing to that extent)
my 2 cents |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
holy shit not another one of these threads...
That's exactly what I was thinking!!!!! :thumbsdown:
S |
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| SplineZ |
quote:
Originally posted by schlong69
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
holy shit not another one of these threads...
That's exactly what I was thinking!!!!! :thumbsdown:
S
I'd never thought this day would come.. shlong myself and an mod all agreeing.. IN THE LAW FORUM, bahaha wtf is with today :)
James Z |
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| fraay |
I'm sure this has all been said before.. but we all need to vent once in a while right :)
As a generally law abiding citizen.. (licensed 10 years, no photo-anythings or tickets).. I'd like to comment that red light cameras have changed my driving habits.. especially now with the increased fines.. but not for the better..
Last year I was stopped at an intersection and a car behind me lost control on the ice.. I went through the intersection through a red because it was safe to do so.. the other car sliding closely behind... an on looking police officer gave me a thumbs up and smiled at me.. now that the fine is absolutely insane, and red light cameras can't realise what that police officer did.. that I made the RIGHT choice.. if I end up in that situation again, my car isn't moving an inch..
The MAJORITY of drivers do their best to be safe and curtious.. I feel this system forces these people to change their driving habits to protect their wallets, instead of trying to avoid accidents.
I worry that because these red-light cameras have no authority to 'punish' people intensionally breaking the law (no demerits etc).. these devices only encourage those who commonly break the law and endanger lives to continue to do so... and perhaps do so MORE OFTEN in intersections without cameras..
It greatly disturbs me that a system was put into place to 'supposidly' catch a relatively small number of repeat offenders.. when it has no power to remove these dangerous drivers from the road... and it also pulls even more of the limited resources we have in place (police officers) that DO have the power to make MY roads safer.. off the streets an into court rooms and behind desks...
Important note!: I'm not saying everyone whos ever got a ticket or photo-whatever is a dangerous driver.. I've seen some INCREDIBLY questionable red light camera timings.. not to mention that there are times in Edmonton when the roads are so horrible in the winter that it's impossible to stop safely. I'm just commenting on the fact that this system has been advertised by the authorities to increase my safety.. and I feel it does the exact opposite. |
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| 1mns13 |
| Cash grab, safety is a secondary issue, just like photo radar. |
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| Insomniac |
| what the gov't doesn't want you to know is how many people are being rear-ended and injured at these intersections, as a result of the drivers slamming on their brakes to avoid tickets... |
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| 83b18b1slow |
Question about those red light cameras.
You know those sensors that make the camera take a photo. couldn't they be used to say, extend the red light duration so whoever was caught in the intersection could pass safely?
I remembering hearing about some town extending there yellow lights by a small amount and then suddenly they didn't have any red light runners becuase that small added time would clear the intersection?
Could something like that be put into play?
Just a thought? :unsure:
I know it wouldn't make money, but it could stop some accidents? |
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| Maxt |
quote:
Originally posted by 83b18b1slow
Question about those red light cameras.
You know those sensors that make the camera take a photo. couldn't they be used to say, extend the red light duration so whoever was caught in the intersection could pass safely?
I remembering hearing about some town extending there yellow lights by a small amount and then suddenly they didn't have any red light runners becuase that small added time would clear the intersection?
Could something like that be put into play?
Just a thought? :unsure:
I know it wouldn't make money, but it could stop some accidents?
The point is to make money ..... And thats the only point of it..Safety is not a concern, does the camera stop you from running a redlight, no it only issues a ticket, if it was about safety even for those absent minded daydreamers, they would have spent the money on making the redlights more visible, not installin a camera just for revenue generation... Its kinda like the gun registry, does spending billions on making those who were law abiding carry a piece of paper, stop people from killing people..no..
Your idea is sound.... And much the way it is Japan...
Alot of the stats used for the justification of red light Cameras, involved accidents where people ran the red of a turn lane, that cross traffic, red light cameras do not work with (left hand) turn lane infractions..
It seems the only answer Canadian traffic engineers and police ever come up with increasing safety is impeding the flow of traffic and stopping it, the point of transportation, is transportation, not bringing cities to a stand still by the means of monetary enforcement...
Wanna stop red light infractions? Get rid of red lights....
In Calgary for instance, the city is flooded with traffic lights,the only answer they have for any traffic dilemna is adding a light, this slows traffic frsutrates drivers and stops the flow of people, which is not the point of having roadways is it..
I had my eyes opened when I went to Japan...
Their light sequence is reverse to ours, and it made somuch more sense... the cars turning across traffic yeilded on green, but then had the advance green arrow, after the main light turned red, not the way it is here, with left traffic first, then straight through traffic, this way people were not forced to turn on reds, and also minimized the turning car from being t-boned by oncoming traffic...
Also why in Japan, can any even somewhat major roadway have a intersection/overpass without traffic lights, yet here in Canada, with a country that has one of the lowest popualtion densities in the world,along with most wide open space, can we not have a traffic lighjt free intersection... In Japan they have 155 million in place slightly smaller than ALberta, yet theyhave alot less traffic lights..hmm.
Also light sequencing goes along way, you cannot drive more than 2 city blocks in Calgary without have to stop at light, in Tokyo I drove for an hour in heavy traffic across the city and every light, every way was sequenced, we can't do that here why?...oh yeah, it would take a way a reason to tax people..
In Japan ,its about moving people, huge amounts of poeple, in a fast effiecient manner, and it shows... moving traffic is also apparently alot safer than traffic that is being forced to stop/start/slow down/turn/merge/yeild/stop etc etc, I only saw one accident while I was there for 3 weeks, yet on my way home from work, I see 3-4 accidents on one road everyday....
I think we need to revisit our design, our rules, and the people making them and enforcing them....They all need to either get their act together, or get lost...Maxt |
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