| Port & Polish / Honing / Flow Bench - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Xx D-MAN xX |
Is there anyone that has gotten this done? If so, by whom?
I'm interested in getting my IM honed on a flow bench, and perhaps get my TB & IM port matched.
Is there a shop (Tech Works & Extreme Hone come to mind) that can do this, plus the removal & re-installation in Alberta? |
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| HKSpowers |
EC AUTO Darcy! :bigthumbup:
They're great with machieing anything! had my fly wheel done by them and it cost $50 p&p is like $180.
I'm gonna have mine done by them sometime this winter. |
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| MATRIX MOTORSPORTS |
Darcy this is Milan we have exactly what your looking for, he is one of the best in the business. He has one of only a few electronic flow benches (SF600) in western Canada and has gone a step further and has added a swirl meter as well as a tumble meter to his setup. He currently does sublets from some of the other machine shops in town, some of his projects include head work for dragster engines, he is currently working on a late model corvette head as well as is currently working on a street bike project. My experience with him has been he is the top in his field and can take you to any level you want to go. Please give me a call and i can get you in touch with him. He is currently finishing up his new shop and would like to get his contacts through us at Matrix Motorsports.
Hope This Helps!
Milan |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Is there anyone that has gotten this done? If so, by whom?
I'm interested in getting my IM honed on a flow bench, and perhaps get my TB & IM port matched.
Is there a shop (Tech Works & Extreme Hone come to mind) that can do this, plus the removal & re-installation in Alberta?
Pro Drag Performance is an authorized Extreme Hone outlet.
To port match your IM and Extrude Hone it, with flow benching before and after will cost you $515.
To learn more about the Extreme Hone Power Port Process (that's alliteration for you english geeks :D ) Click Here |
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| djshortys |
EC owns , Darcy.. check them out!
andy! |
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| ManHunter |
EC Automotives rebuilt my engine (the one going in the car soon) and they did a port & polish on it too. They seem to know what they are doing.
MH |
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| Xx D-MAN xX |
Eric, if I brought my car to say EC Automotive, would they do all the un-install and re-install after the honing? I want to get the hondata IM gasket done at the same time.
I think I'll pass on the port matching of the IM since I'll be running a 70mm TB and will probably stay NA (70mm -> 62mm).
Blaine, does pro drag performance do the honing or do you send it out to another shop. If you send it out, to whom?
Milan, send me a pm with your affiliated extreme honing shop. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Eric, if I brought my car to say EC Automotive, would they do all the un-install and re-install after the honing? I want to get the hondata IM gasket done at the same time.
I think I'll pass on the port matching of the IM since I'll be running a 70mm TB and will probably stay NA (70mm -> 62mm).
Blaine, does pro drag performance do the honing or do you send it out to another shop. If you send it out, to whom?
Milan, send me a pm with your affiliated extreme honing shop.
Blaine would send it out to Extreme Hone - since they don't deal directly with the public (Only their affiliated dealers). There's a couple shops that deal with them, and I think they're prices are pretty much standard.
In fact, anyone in Alberta who offers Extrude Honing would go to Extreme Hone - I think they're the only one in Canada still?
As well, I would recommend AGAINST Extrude Honing. There has never been any proof that it can outflow a normal port/polish job, just that it outflows a stock piece.
Personally, I would go to Campbell Automotive - they have a guy there who's been doing it as long as I've been alive and he's amazing. He'll do just as good (If not better) of a job than an extrude hone would, for less $$$. Throw in the fact it's getting done by an amazing engine builder (Last I heard, he had 12:1 SBC's running on pump gas) who knows how an engine works and all those tips/tricks that'll get you that extra HP. |
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| Xx D-MAN xX |
| Where is this Campbell Automotive located? |
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| stealthgtsr |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
As well, I would recommend AGAINST Extrude Honing. There has never been any proof that it can outflow a normal port/polish job, just that it outflows a stock piece.
[QUOTE]
Acttually there is proof that Extremehone power port process does out perform hand porting we see it all the time . There are many articals on the net that confirm this . www.extrudehone.com not affiliated with Extremehone has a lot of good info . Ford uses the process on the Contour SVT over 20000 units NASCAR
F-1 ,CART ,INDY , NHRA superstocks . US military , NASA , ETC .
There are many head porters around very few good ones though Our process
replaces the operator variable and process s each port to the same level .
On average we se a 15 to 20 % improvement in air flow Over hand porting
and with an intake manifold the only thing a guy with a grinder can do is a little bit in TB /Carb area and a couple of inches into the port this hardly optimises the flow .We can also provide are flow data from our brand new PowerDyne flow bench this is state of the art equipment and is operated by a journey man Instermentation tech not just some self taught grinder operator . TrevorK may prefer the hand jobs but we know that our Powerport Process is the one that really delivers . |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
TrevorK may prefer the hand jobs...
low blow!! |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
As well, I would recommend AGAINST Extrude Honing. There has never been any proof that it can outflow a normal port/polish job, just that it outflows a stock piece.
You seem to have a hate on for the guys that work out of that address in the city.
I am going to dig up some before and after results of Extreme Honing done on 1G DSM Intake Maifolds. There is a huge horsepower difference to be realized by Extreme Honing in the upper RPM range, based on the 4G63 Intake Manifold. |
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| scooby_dooby |
I have dyno charts of an extreme hone on an Integra intake manifold, gained 5-7 whp across the board.
there's also charts of an extreme honed b16a intake manifold that out performs a stock ITR manifold in evryway, even when put on a 1.8l engine.
It's a very good process, removes the human error factor, it's just a little expensive that's all. |
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| ManHunter |
I doubt EC Automotive will take your car apart to do it. You'll have to bring them the parts. As with Campell, EC Automotive is a bunch of 50+ years old guys who've been working on motors for decades.
MH |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
As well, I would recommend AGAINST Extrude Honing. There has never been any proof that it can outflow a normal port/polish job, just that it outflows a stock piece.
You seem to have a hate on for the guys that work out of that address in the city.
I am going to dig up some before and after results of Extreme Honing done on 1G DSM Intake Maifolds. There is a huge horsepower difference to be realized by Extreme Honing in the upper RPM range, based on the 4G63 Intake Manifold.
I don't care about Extrude Honing compared to stock figures - I want to compare Extrude Honing versus a GOOD P&P job. Not a do-it-yourself P&P, a good one by a professional.
That's all I ask for. I don't care what it does over stock numbers, that's not what we're talking about is it?
I want to see it compared to a job done by a professional engine guy.
Can anyone deliver, or is this going to be on all just heresay? |
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| Xx D-MAN xX |
| Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what. |
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| TrevorK |
I'll toss in a link from a tuner source:
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com...03/projectqg18/
Definetely has the info from what appears to be an unbiased source.
But, unfortunately with the honing process done we ran into problems when we attempted to dyno'd the car. The air/fuel ratio at high RPM's was "in the red" so to speak. After having the manifold honed our engine started running at irregular intervals from a rich 13:10 at approx 2500 rpm to lean 16:02 at approx 6100 rpm Air/Fuel ratio throughout the power band possibly causing the small surges and unfavorable driving conditions that were experienced at high RPMs.
and
So for now, based on our current observations, if you have a QG18DE equipped vehicle with just the normal bolt on performance parts, the Extrude Hone process will most likely not help much if at all unless your able to adjust you're A/F ratio. If your engine is really built with cams, headwork, compression, etc. and you are interested in squeezing every bit of power out of your motor, you should consider it. But it would be a finishing touch type of modification. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
I don't care about Extrude Honing compared to stock figures - I want to compare Extrude Honing versus a GOOD P&P job. Not a do-it-yourself P&P, a good one by a professional.
I want to see it compared to a job done by a professional engine guy.
Can anyone deliver, or is this going to be on all just heresay?
Fine. Then put up or shut up. Where are YOUR proffesional guy port and polished flowbench specs? Can you deliver or are you just blowing hot air?
Nobody I know races a flowbench, it is a tool to aid in the gathering of knowledge as to how your modifications affected airflow characteristics. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
I'll toss in a link from a tuner source:
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com...03/projectqg18/
Definetely has the info from what appears to be an unbiased source.
But, unfortunately with the honing process done we ran into problems when we attempted to dyno'd the car. The air/fuel ratio at high RPM's was "in the red" so to speak. After having the manifold honed our engine started running at irregular intervals from a rich 13:10 at approx 2500 rpm to lean 16:02 at approx 6100 rpm Air/Fuel ratio throughout the power band possibly causing the small surges and unfavorable driving conditions that were experienced at high RPMs.
and
So for now, based on our current observations, if you have a QG18DE equipped vehicle with just the normal bolt on performance parts, the Extrude Hone process will most likely not help much if at all unless your able to adjust you're A/F ratio. If your engine is really built with cams, headwork, compression, etc. and you are interested in squeezing every bit of power out of your motor, you should consider it. But it would be a finishing touch type of modification.
So what your "tuner source" is saying, the Power Port Process did it's job to TEE. It increased the CFM capability of the manifold. That is if I am reading the A/F ratio correct. Most educated tuners I know would show the ratio as 13.1:1 and 16.2:1, that alone arouses scepticism on my part.
Why do you think the engine went lean on the top end? Because it is breathing ALOT more air at WOT (wide open throttle) than the ECU is calibrated for. If you significantly increase the airflow to the combustion chamber without adding the correct amount of fuel of course it is going to cause a lean condition.
I am not entirely familiar with the Nissan Sentra, does it use a Mass Air Flow sensor or does it use a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor?
Since I am not one to spread onesided propaganda, I will copy/paste the article in its entirety so people can see the FULL story that the magazine reported.
quote:
Project Sentra QG18DE
Increasing Air Flow Part 1 - Extrude Honing
By Keith Sipmann
There isn't much that can done with the stock Nissan intake manifold, except for port matching and Extrude Honing. Port matching just grinds the ports down so airflow is maximized. Extrude honing is far better as it guarantees that the inside surface is completely smooth and will flow optimally under all conditions. This improves airflow while maintaining a stock underhood look.
Most of you probably know that a good way to increase horsepower from your engine is to maximize the airflow that's going through the motor. This kind of thinking is why cold air intakes are so popular for most beginning tuners. The theory is more air in, the more power out. This is also why turbo and superchargers, which force-feed the motor a ton of additional air, help the motor produce more power. Nissan engines are not different than any other performance machine in that it takes the proper combination of components to fully optimize the power potential.
Several factors will limit the amount of air an engine can breathe. On the induction side are the intake tracts, including the intake manifold and intake port of the cylinder head. The specs of the cam shaft, which determine how much power the motor will produce. Here is what the Extrude Honed intake manifold ports look like after the process is done, note that the ports are much enlarged and the normally rough cast surface inside the port is now very smooth. The result is a dramatic flow increase that is related to flow velocity not flow volume.
Normally when you're tuning for top end power, you lose torque and your power-band becomes narrower at the bottom end. A wider, higher torque power-band at lower rpm will nail the quick 0-60' times but a top end, high-horsepower power-band will give you the ¼ mile advantage. Your best setup will deliver the highest amount of horsepower over the power-band for the transmission's gear range for the longest amount of time.
So what is Extrude Honing?
The process is actually called Extrude Hone Porting. What makes Extrude Hone porting different is that instead of gouging the ports out by hand using an array of rotational carbide and hard roll cutting tools, Extrude Hone forces a Silly Putty-type media through the passages under high pressure using hydraulic cylinders. The media that Extrude Hone uses offers a number of unique properties that help its effectiveness as both a deburring process and an airflow enhancement. The "Silly Putty" is impregnated with small abrasive silicon carbide chips or beads that act as a cutting agent in the putty. By forcing the abrasive putty back and forth (sometimes in only one direction) through an intake manifold or cylinder head port, material is removed from the inner walls. This removal process improves airflow through the passage by approx. 15% according to EH. Extrude-honing is the best way to port a lower intake manifold as its elaborate twisting shape makes die grinding impossible.
By passing that abrasive putty-like compound through the internal passages of ordinary cast and machined parts, the process will control the shape and smoothness of areas inside the part that normally cannot be reached with ordinary machine tools. By lowering the turbulence within the flow passages, the engine will breathe more easily, and increases both the mass flow rate and entry velocity of the air drawn into the combustion chamber, providing a more complete and leaner fuel/air mixture and consequently, a more efficient and cleaner combustion. The Abrasive Flow Controlled Machining process is used on both fuel and air components, such as, inlet scoops, inlet ducts, intake manifolds, intake plenum chambers, cylinder heads, exhaust manifolds, turbochargers, superchargers, fuel injectors, fuel valves, etc.
The media demonstrates properties of both a liquid and a solid. While "at rest", the media exists in a fluid form. If you held the material in your hand, it would most likely ooze to the floor. How quickly this would happen depends on the particular thickness of the material. Though the putty exists in a fluid form all the way to the ground, for that split second that it contacts the surface, it changes to a solid.
It is this split personality that allows the Extrude Hone process to work so successfully. When the putty is put under pressure using the hydraulic Extrude Hone machines, it flows through the intake passages like a liquid, following the exact same path as the air-flow. The hydraulic pressure from the machines is transferred through the putty to the abrasive carbide material. This allows the putty to remove material from the adjoining areas uniformly like a solid. When the "Silly Putty" runs into an air-flow restriction it acts like a solid and removes the restriction. It's like having a miniature hand porter go in, find where the restrictions are and remove them. This is very useful when porting long runner intake manifolds.
Overall General Benefits
The result is a dramatic flow increase that is related to flow velocity not flow volume.
Major benefits are increased horsepower and torque, throughout the power band while reducing emissions and improving fuel economy at the same time!
In Kojima's Garage area of Sentra.Net we show test results for the Extrude Hone process on a GA16DE motor with excellent results. Power gains were experienced from 4500 rpm on up with no loss of bottom end power. In fact we got big fat power gains from 4800 rpm on up, right in the zone where you shift at wide open throttle, so the whole useable powerband saw an increase. The gains averaged 3-4 hp in that range with a peak gain of 5 hp. For our project QG18DE we hoped those numbers would be just as impressive. Before we had the EH process completed, Project QG18DE was dyno tested to produced 110.29 hp at 4300 rpm and 117.33 lbs of torque at 5900 rpm. But, unfortunately with the honing process done we ran into problems when we attempted to dyno'd the car. The air/fuel ratio at high RPM's was "in the red" so to speak. After having the manifold honed our engine started running at irregular intervals from a rich 13:10 at approx 2500 rpm to lean 16:02 at approx 6100 rpm Air/Fuel ratio throughout the power band possibly causing the small surges and unfavorable driving conditions that were experienced at high RPMs. The air-fuel ratio is the weight ratio of air to fuel (gasoline) drawn into the cylinder during engine intake stroke. AF=(mass of Air)/(mass of Fuel). Because of the problems we ran into during dyno testing, we can only speculate that the QG18DE would see power gains very similar to our GA16DE results in 2001.
All this mess from just Extrude Honing? Well the car was already running lean with the other bolt on modifications, not to mention the QG18DE runs exceedingly lean from the factory. So improving the QG18DE's airflow will obviously affect the engines Air/Fuel ratio. We'll get more into air/fuel ratios when we go over the results of installing our new Apexi SAFC.
We can say that Extrude honing really does a great job of opening up and polishing the small stock manifolds ports. Extrude Honing is exceptionally expensive in relationship to the power gains it produces. But if your intent is to build a completely built motor, then it will unquestionably help you squeeze more power out of your engine.
So at least with what little results we do have, it shows that increasing the manifold's flow does have some affect on a fairly modified QG18DE. But unfortunately we can't say whether it's a positive affect or not. Unfortunately due to Extrude Hones involvement in the racing scene, they weren't able to flow test the manifold to determine for sure that the stock manifold is a major choke point for the QG. We'll have to determine another way.
So for now, based on our current observations, if you have a QG18DE equipped vehicle with just the normal bolt on performance parts, the Extrude Hone process will most likely not help much if at all unless your able to adjust you're A/F ratio. If your engine is really built with cams, headwork, compression, etc. and you are interested in squeezing every bit of power out of your motor, you should consider it. But it would be a finishing touch type of modification. We just went ahead and had the process done because we had already taken off the intake manifold to have it thermally coated by HP Coatings Inc. If you have a high revving, full race, naturally aspirated or high boosting turbo engine where the stock manifold has become flow challenged, Extrude Honing should definitely be a plus!
This thread is going to get good. :bigthumbup: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup: |
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| THEONE |
| Peak flow numbers mean shit unless you are turbo/supercharged! NA velocity and flow characteristics mean ten times more! That said huge ports on turbo cars does not mean huge power! BUYER BEWARE! :) |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
NA velocity and flow characteristics mean ten times more! That said huge ports on turbo cars does not mean huge power!
You are correct on these statements.
Huge ports don't NECESSARILY mean huge power. The devil is in the details of the design of the COMPLETE engine. Huge ports are necessary in some applications and less desirable in others. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
Fine. Then put up or shut up. Where are YOUR proffesional guy port and polished flowbench specs? Can you deliver or are you just blowing hot air?
Nobody I know races a flowbench, it is a tool to aid in the gathering of knowledge as to how your modifications affected airflow characteristics.
Exactly - just because it flows more, doesn't mean it's going to make more power. And that's the sole basis of Darryl's post - that he flows "15-20% improvement in air flow". And that's also the common misconception with people who wants stuff ported - "more air means a bigger boom and more power".
Which is why I told Darcy to go to a shop that specializes in engine buildups, because they'll be able to grasp what the goal is of the project and tailor it accordingly. By your own admissions, if Darcy got his intake manifold extrude honed, he'd be running lean up top once it was put back on. Good horsepower gain right there eh?
I'm not saying Extrude Honing is the devil, I'm not saying it's the shittiest thing. But it doesn't have the effects that people think on a car with just bolt-ons, if that (Especially at the price). |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
If you want to, but we aren't talking about carburated engines here. Atomization of fuel isn't a concern when the fuel injector is spraying fuel in a fine mist at the back of the intake valve. |
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| 2000z |
You ask the question, "Good horsepower gain right there eh?" in regards to leaning out on the top end. It probably has a great horsepower gain when it leans out. But thats not good for the longevity of the engine.
Thats the only point either of you has made that I have solid knowledge about so I'll leave the rest alone. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
Fine. Then put up or shut up. Where are YOUR proffesional guy port and polished flowbench specs? Can you deliver or are you just blowing hot air?
Nobody I know races a flowbench, it is a tool to aid in the gathering of knowledge as to how your modifications affected airflow characteristics.
Exactly - just because it flows more, doesn't mean it's going to make more power. And that's the sole basis of Darryl's post - that he flows "15-20% improvement in air flow". And that's also the common misconception with people who wants stuff ported - "more air means a bigger boom and more power".
Which is why I told Darcy to go to a shop that specializes in engine buildups, because they'll be able to grasp what the goal is of the project and tailor it accordingly. By your own admissions, if Darcy got his intake manifold extrude honed, he'd be running lean up top once it was put back on. Good horsepower gain right there eh?
I'm not saying Extrude Honing is the devil, I'm not saying it's the shittiest thing. But it doesn't have the effects that people think on a car with just bolt-ons, if that (Especially at the price).
So why would you let your fingers do the talking and bash the Power Port Process when you have NO PROOF whatsoever to back up your statements? ie. That a hand ported piece will flow as well as a Power Ported piece.
I wouldn't represent something I don't believe in, that is why you don't see double decker potato peeler spoilers hanging on the walls in Pro Drag.
Here is an excerpt from the article you quoted:
quote:
By lowering the turbulence within the flow passages, the engine will breathe more easily, and increases both the mass flow rate and entry velocity of the air drawn into the combustion chamber, providing a more complete and leaner fuel/air mixture and consequently, a more efficient and cleaner combustion.
The increase in entry velocity is the gain to look for in my opinion.
The shop you told Darcy to go to does specialize in buildups, OF OLD SCHOOL V8's WITH CARBURATORS. Technology has evolved. So has techniques in power production.
If somebody who is looking to "port and polish" anything doesn't understand the "why" then they are going to be dissapointed. If you increase the airflow volume and velocity YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THE FUEL in order to create more power. Air, Fuel, Spark, Timing are the vital ingredients of combustion. If you want to double a recipe of Redbaron303's Moms chocolate chip cookies, would you only double the amount of flour in the recipe? I sure as hell wouldn't. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by 2000z
You ask the question, "Good horsepower gain right there eh?" in regards to leaning out on the top end. It probably has a great horsepower gain when it leans out. But thats not good for the longevity of the engine.
Thats the only point either of you has made that I have solid knowledge about so I'll leave the rest alone.
Actually if it leans out too far there will be a power loss.
That is why you need to maintain the proper A/F ratio. Something the writers of the article had no control over. |
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| SplineZ |
Would there be any difference in power output between the pressure measuring methods if all things are equal? which one is easier to tune for increased flow?(MAP, MAF, Speed/Density)
It makes sense that nissan is running lean on the top end if the ECU was not programmed to flow that much. How much MORE air is actually getting thru tho? Has anybody actually flowbenched a stock intake manifold vs a extrude honed vs a PnP'd one. I'd like to see what the actual numbers are.
I love educational threads :D
James Z |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
Would there be any difference in power output between the pressure measuring methods if all things are equal? which one is easier to tune for increased flow?(MAP, MAF, Speed/Density)
It makes sense that nissan is running lean on the top end if the ECU was not programmed to flow that much. How much MORE air is actually getting thru tho? Has anybody actually flowbenched a stock intake manifold vs a extrude honed vs a PnP'd one. I'd like to see what the actual numbers are.
I love educational threads :D
James Z
The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM. The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width. Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle). |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
I love educational threads :D
me too, but without all the yelling, accusations and insinuated personal attacks.
keep it nice guys, we're all here to learn :) |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
The shop you told Darcy to go to does specialize in buildups, OF OLD SCHOOL V8's WITH CARBURATORS. Technology has evolved. So has techniques in power production.
Some of the projects we have done include:
3000+ HP 526" KB Blown Alcohol Engines
2000+ HP 632" - 706" Nitrous Pro Mod Engines
850+ HP 489" Supercharged Pump Gas Chevrolets
700+ HP 406" Supercharged Pump Gas Chevrolets
600+ HP 351" Ford Cleavlands
400+ HP 2.0L Eagle Talon Turbo Engines
550+HP 4.3L Chevrolet TurboCharged V6
They claim they've done fuel injected cars before....
quote:
So why would you let your fingers do the talking and bash the Power Port Process when you have NO PROOF whatsoever to back up your statements? ie. That a hand ported piece will flow as well as a Power Ported piece.
I wish I could find some. I can find port/polish numbers, but not compared to the Extrude Hone process. If you can post some numbers from some SBC heads with casting #'s, I'm sure I could find you some comparison. |
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| stealthgtsr |
The article that trevork posted is very interesting and underlines the need for understanding how HP is increased The only way to produce more HP is to increase the amount of fuel burned in a given time ! the only way to burn more fuel in the Correct ratio with air is to move more air into and out of the engine . by increasing only one element (air or fuel) THERE WILL BE LITTLE OR NO GAIN .
which is what we see in trevorks article the engine was moving more air but no more fuel was added hence no power gain You have to build the whole package !
As any of you know when you call us at Extremehone we ask a lot of questions as to the usage of the vehicle mods already done future mods , cam specs , n/a , turbo or n2o . and will help you decide if this is the best step for your engine . If we wanted to get rich at head porting I would have bought a couple of die grinders and bits and declared to be a head porter like most other head porters out there . there are two head porters in town that know thier stuff and will help you get what you need ,But there is no other company in Canada that can do what we do to your intake manifolds !And as far as cylinder heads go we are equal to the best port work out there . Which is what the original question was .If you spend all your money on cylinder head work and bolt on an un ported intake what have you gained? As far as head flow #s we would be glad to post #s or perhaps Blaine or Apex would care to ?
This is a V8 less forum so posting SBC #s is pretty much irellivent here .Though I seem to remember the post where You (trevorK)were bashing Stews Dyno you own a mid 80s camaro or something ? Infact if you bring in Your race ported intake manifold in we will flow it on the bench then hone it , air flow it again and if you dont see a 15 % increase I will give you 500.00 for your trouble s !
If it works all you do is pay for the process and leave with a superior intake Are you up to the Challenge ! Put up or fade away. |
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| SplineZ |
cant beat that :) cept if everything was free, ahah.. Then i'd volunteer the use of my car ;)
James Z |
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| bigpappa |
| ok ok i have been away for awhile and all i know is trwevor k is a bitch,and i will gladly say it to his face.as for bashing people and shops get your head out of your ass and quit reading your hotrod books,talk from expierance which in turn you don't have any because then you would have respect which you definantly don't got,because all you do is bash people,businesses and holy shit milan is on here to????did that guy ever build a car that doesn't have a warranty????oh ya a nother sales men tryin to make a buck talkin about shit he doesn't know about so did he ever get a set of heads port and polished done?better yet has he evr been on the track?????buyer beware never shop somewhere,where they haven't used the products or similar products on there own cars,because they are the ones who just don't understand?trust me would you buy a nitrous kit or any performance product,eg.camshafts,cam gears,nitrous or a turbo from someone that has no idea how to instal or use it themselves.??????????WATCH WEAR YOU SHOP,WATCH WHO YOU TALK TO ABOUT PERFORMANCE some of them don't know!!!!!!!!!! :thefinger: |
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| probetunerforlife |
so what are you all saying is that the honing is good but it is very dependent on application?
and with me and my 12 valve could i just do the exhaust side with its one valve to flow the same as the two intake valves?
i really like this thread but not the flames! very good learning. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
400+ HP 2.0L Eagle Talon Turbo Engines
Who's cars were these?
I have seen ONE first hand, and the engine has some weird issues. |
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| REFLUX |
| If any flaming/arguing/non-topic related posts results from BigPappa's response I will close this thread. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by probetunerforlife
so what are you all saying is that the honing is good but it is very dependent on application?
and with me and my 12 valve could i just do the exhaust side with its one valve to flow the same as the two intake valves?
i really like this thread but not the flames! very good learning.
I think all sides agree that if you don't have anything to support the extrude honing that it will not perform as you expect - and may even cause a loss in power because you aren't accounting for all the extra airflow over what it was previously. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
400+ HP 2.0L Eagle Talon Turbo Engines
Who's cars were these?
I have seen ONE first hand, and the engine has some weird issues.
Honestly have no clue. For all I know it could've been Brad's car. I just pulled it off their website. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
As any of you know when you call us at Extremehone we ask a lot of questions as to the usage of the vehicle mods already done future mods , cam specs , n/a , turbo or n2o . and will help you decide if this is the best step for your engine .
Only problem is - I thought you only dealt with shops and not with the general public? Which means it would be up to the shop to make that determination of whether it's best or not....
quote:
This is a V8 less forum so posting SBC #s is pretty much irellivent here .
There are a lot more flow numbers for a SBC part out there, so it would be easier to make a comparison.
quote:
Infact if you bring in Your race ported intake manifold in we will flow it on the bench then hone it , air flow it again and if you dont see a 15 % increase I will give you 500.00 for your trouble s !
If it works all you do is pay for the process and leave with a superior intake Are you up to the Challenge ! Put up or fade away.
That's a sweet offer, but my Performer manifold is on my car, which is under a car cover, which is under 2 feet of snow. Hah, maybe if you still have this offer in spring time, since I need to take my carb off anyways....
And for those still following here are some numbers done by a magazine. All pieces were flow-bench on the same machine on the same day:
Runners
stock tpi 203cfm
Accel large tube 242 cfm
Extrude honed Accel 275 cfm
SuperRam 289
BAse manifolds
stock 222 cfm
Accel 251 cfm
Accel extrude 276 cfm
Edelbrock perf RPM dual plane 286 |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
And for those still following here are some numbers done by a magazine. All pieces were flow-bench on the same machine on the same day:
Runners
stock tpi 203cfm
Accel large tube 242 cfm
Extrude honed Accel 275 cfm
SuperRam 289
BAse manifolds
stock 222 cfm
Accel 251 cfm
Accel extrude 276 cfm
Edelbrock perf RPM dual plane 286
StealthGTSR do you still have the flow specs before/after the Extreme Honing of Stew's Edelbrock heads for his BB Mopar engine?
I know it was between a 15-25% increase in flow just by Extreme Honing the Edelbrock heads, just wondering if the spec sheet is still handy. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
I think all sides agree that if you don't have anything to support the extrude honing that it will not perform as you expect - and may even cause a loss in power because you aren't accounting for all the extra airflow over what it was previously.
Then to be fair you would have to say that "porting and polishing" by hand will not perform as expected either. You can't have it both ways. |
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| THEONE |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
[B] Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
If you want to, but we aren't talking about carburated engines here. Atomization of fuel isn't a concern when the fuel injector is spraying fuel in a fine mist at the back of the intake valve. [/b][/quote]
I have talked to a lot of professional head porters in the States and almost all have said they do leave the intake finish ruffer on the intake side of the head! And polish the Exhaust side to combat carbon build up! Just a thought! |
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| stealthgtsr |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
[QUOTE]
At only 3000 rpm the intake valve opens 25 times per SECOND thats 50 times per SECOND at 6000 rpm that means the flow changes direction (starts and stops) 120 TIMES PER SECOND @ 6000 RPM ! how much turbulence does a rough port finish add to the flow ? please explain with proof to back up your claims . I agree a rough port will help the port appear smaller to the engine by causing a boundary layer that is further from the port wall but this can be prevented by not making the port to large to begin with . We also have a texture process to roughen up the port if a customer insists . Have you ever seen a F-1 or Cart engine or even an NHRA prostock port ? you can see your reflextion .
Extreme hone will be moving to our new location in Jan 04 perhaps an open house one evening with demonstrations of the machine and process woulkd help everyone understand what it is that we do . Perhaps we can bring in some of our dealers to help and some customers to comment .if we see enough interst we will arrange trhis for early feb . This may help remove somme of the mystery on this subject .Let me know .
Regards
Darryl |
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| SplineZ |
Open house? Im in :)
i always wanted to know a lil more about this process..
James Z |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
Extreme hone will be moving to our new location in Jan 04 perhaps an open house one evening with demonstrations of the machine and process woulkd help everyone understand what it is that we do . Perhaps we can bring in some of our dealers to help and some customers to comment .if we see enough interst we will arrange trhis for early feb . This may help remove somme of the mystery on this subject .Let me know .
Regards
Darryl
I'm in. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
[B] Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
If you want to, but we aren't talking about carburated engines here. Atomization of fuel isn't a concern when the fuel injector is spraying fuel in a fine mist at the back of the intake valve. [/b][/quote]
I have talked to a lot of professional head porters in the States and almost all have said they do leave the intake finish ruffer on the intake side of the head! And polish the Exhaust side to combat carbon build up! Just a thought! [/b][/quote]
Talk is cheap, I like to see results. Thinking outside the box is how technology moves forward. |
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| 4G63PWR |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM. The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width. Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
So your saying that extrude honing has better potential for turbo cars? Do all turbo cars have MAF's? Or do some have MAP's? |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM. The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width. Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
So your saying that extrude honing has better potential for turbo cars? Do all turbo cars have MAF's? Or do some have MAP's?
Whoa, you are taking what I said out of context. Which can be dangerous.
I just outlined the differences between the two systems.
Arguments can be made on both sides for which system is better. |
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| 4G63PWR |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM._ The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width._ Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
So your saying that extrude honing has better potential for turbo cars? Do all turbo cars have MAF's? Or do some have MAP's?
Whoa, you are taking what I said out of context. Which can be dangerous.
I just outlined the differences between the two systems.
Arguments can be made on both sides for which system is better.
Didn't understand your post totaly, so I asked a couple questions, not trying to start an argument. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM. The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width. Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
So your saying that extrude honing has better potential for turbo cars? Do all turbo cars have MAF's? Or do some have MAP's?
Whoa, you are taking what I said out of context. Which can be dangerous.
I just outlined the differences between the two systems.
Arguments can be made on both sides for which system is better.
Didn't understand your post totaly, so I asked a couple questions, not trying to start an argument. [/b][/quote]
Matt,
I know you aren't trying to start an argument. When I said "arguments can be made on both sides for which system is better" I was reffering to sides of a debate. When the parts you have on order arrive at the shop I can explain it to you face to face to minimize confusion.
Exteme Honing delivers optimal flow characteristics in my opinion, consistently. Regardless of application.
How the customer chooses to take advantage of the increased airflow by delivering the appropriate amount of fuel, spark and timing is grounds for another debate. |
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| 4G63PWR |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 4G63PWR
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] The MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor would almost automatically compensate for the increased airflow. It "counts" the air that passes through it, the ECU references that # to throttle position and RPM and calculates the correct IPW (Injector Pulse Width).
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor on a Naturally Aspirated car can only differenciate levels of vacuum in the manifold, which the computer would reference to throttle position and RPM._ The problem is that the engineers had a volumetric efficiency in mind when they calulated the tables for Injector Pulse Width._ Increasing the volumetric efficiency will lean out the mixture because there is no "check or balance" in the system when in WOT (Wide Open Throttle).
So your saying that extrude honing has better potential for turbo cars? Do all turbo cars have MAF's? Or do some have MAP's?
Whoa, you are taking what I said out of context. Which can be dangerous.
I just outlined the differences between the two systems.
Arguments can be made on both sides for which system is better.
Didn't understand your post totaly, so I asked a couple questions, not trying to start an argument. [/b][/quote]
When the parts you have on order arrive at the shop I can explain it to you face to face to minimize confusion.
[/b][/quote]
Sounds good :bigthumbup:
I think I get the jist of it, but I'm still a noob :D |
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| Xx D-MAN xX |
Darryl, I would be very interested in a shop tour sometime in the spring. That would give me the opportunity to see and understand the processes better and determine what I really want to do to my car.
I'm still not clear on what I want to do to my IM and what process would best achieve my goals. More research is needed. |
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| stealthgtsr |
D'arcy ,I will post on this site as to when we will have an open house . With moving next month and the back log of work we have right now it probaly wont be until mid feb. but I will post at least a week prior with the details .If you have any questions please feel free to contact us.
Regards
Darryl
www.extremehone.com |
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| THEONE |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrevorK
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
[B] Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
If you want to, but we aren't talking about carburated engines here. Atomization of fuel isn't a concern when the fuel injector is spraying fuel in a fine mist at the back of the intake valve. [/b][/quote]
I have talked to a lot of professional head porters in the States and almost all have said they do leave the intake finish ruffer on the intake side of the head! And polish the Exhaust side to combat carbon build up! Just a thought! [/b][/quote]
Talk is cheap, I like to see results. Thinking outside the box is how technology moves forward. [/b][/quote]
Talk is not cheap! Talking, asking informed questions is how you save yourself money and heart aches! The guys I have talked to have done thousands of heads not to mention race engine programs for some of the top racers! That said they have tried almost every possible combination in the search for any avaliable horsepower! If talking to people who walk the walk is waisting time I'm all for it! Outside your box, is not outside of everyone elses box! |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by TrevorK
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Pro Drag
[B] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Xx D-MAN xX
[B] Boy, did I open up a can of worms or what.
It is going to be a educationally tasty can of worms though. :bigthumbup:
So does that mean we should open up the discussion as to how the extrude honing process can hinder the atomization of the fuel? :bigthumbup:
If you want to, but we aren't talking about carburated engines here. Atomization of fuel isn't a concern when the fuel injector is spraying fuel in a fine mist at the back of the intake valve. [/b][/quote]
I have talked to a lot of professional head porters in the States and almost all have said they do leave the intake finish ruffer on the intake side of the head! And polish the Exhaust side to combat carbon build up! Just a thought! [/b][/quote]
Talk is cheap, I like to see results. Thinking outside the box is how technology moves forward. [/b][/quote]
Talk is not cheap! Talking, asking informed questions is how you save yourself money and heart aches! The guys I have talked to have done thousands of heads not to mention race engine programs for some of the top racers! That said they have tried almost every possible combination in the search for any avaliable horsepower! If talking to people who walk the walk is waisting time I'm all for it! Outside your box, is not outside of everyone elses box! [/b][/quote]
So these top builders have tried the Power Port Process?
Which heads have these top builders done for which top racers?
I am not trying to start a flame war here, I just want to know where you are getting your information. :unsure: |
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| THEONE |
| BCE, BJ's, and a whole bunch of other guys! I baicaly contacted all the sponsors of various magazine featured race cars! Some of the guys I talked to only do top racer engines and don't do private one shot deals! Names of racers John Sheppard, Paul Effatis, and many 6-8's pro import guys! |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
BCE, BJ's, and a whole bunch of other guys! I baicaly contacted all the sponsors of various magazine featured race cars! Some of the guys I talked to only do top racer engines and don't do private one shot deals! Names of racers John Sheppard, Paul Effatis, and many 6-8's pro import guys!
I have seen with my own two eyes and have pics somwhere of a BJ's 4G63 RACE head. It is NICE, don't get me wrong. If you have the $$$ for a full blown race head it doesn't get much better than a BJ's RACE head.
For the average enthusiast however I feel that Extreme Hone's power port process is unmatched for consistency and results.
We will be flow testing a BONE STOCK 4G63T Intake manifold before/after soon. Will post results when finished. |
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| stealthgtsr |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
BCE, BJ's, and a whole bunch of other guys! I baicaly contacted all the sponsors of various magazine featured race cars! Some of the guys I talked to only do top racer engines and don't do private one shot deals! Names of racers John Sheppard, Paul Effatis, and many 6-8's pro import guys!
[QUOTE]
Maybe I am wrong but I have found over the years that most racers and race shops are willing to share info up to a certain point but beyond that they still keep somethings to themselves . When it comes to bussines and racing you dont want your competitors to know everything ,do you? Extremehone has done work for a lot of class racers who dont want to have there names released even if it means a
sponsor discount on the process . the stock car guys in the stock casting classes are esspecially serious about this . Phoning some one and asking them to educate you for free may not provide you with all the answers.Just my opinion . |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
[QUOTE]Originally posted by THEONE
BCE, BJ's, and a whole bunch of other guys!_ I baicaly contacted all the sponsors of various magazine featured race cars!_ Some of the guys I talked to only do top racer engines and don't do private one shot deals!_ Names of racers John Sheppard, Paul Effatis, and many 6-8's pro import guys!
quote:
Maybe I am wrong but I have found over the years that most racers and race shops are willing to share info up to a certain point but beyond that they still keep somethings to themselves . When it comes to bussines and racing you dont want your competitors to know everything ,do you? Extremehone has done work for a lot of class racers who dont want to have there names released even if it means a
sponsor discount on the process . the stock car guys in the stock casting classes are esspecially serious about this . Phoning some one and asking them to educate you for free may not provide you with all the answers.Just my opinion .
I was going to say the same thing. Talk IS cheap. |
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| stealthgtsr |
hone testThese guys appear to know what they are doing . [
lots of good info . |
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| IH8V8S |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
If any flaming/arguing/non-topic related posts results from BigPappa's response I will close this thread.
:angry: You know Terry, if you're going to defend and condone the kind of behavior Leno constantly shows on this board then I don't wan't anything to do with it!! :thumbsdown: Why was his post not deleted? Or is insulting everyone possible "personal expression"? Make some clear rules and stand behind them; and don't defend people when they dig their own holes! :blink:
Krazy Karl :wacko: |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by IH8V8S
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
If any flaming/arguing/non-topic related posts results from BigPappa's response I will close this thread.
:angry: You know Terry, if you're going to defend and condone the kind of behavior Leno constantly shows on this board then I don't wan't anything to do with it!! :thumbsdown: Why was his post not deleted? Or is insulting everyone possible "personal expression"? Make some clear rules and stand behind them; and don't defend people when they dig their own holes! :blink:
Krazy Karl :wacko:
Karl: I understand where you're coming from because all too often I feel the same way. But I try to guide this forum as democratically as possible.
So let me clear some things up for you:
1) I do NOT condone bullshit behaviour and do not defend it.
2) Leno's post was not deleted because if it came down to giving him a warning or banning him, what kind of evidence would we have?
3) There are better ways to deal with attention-seekers than to give them attention. I do not care what they say and neither should you. They obviously put up posts like that to get you all wound up and they are LOOKING for a flame war.
Don't give them what they want.
Don't stoop down to their level.
This is essentially basic children & dog training. When a child/dog is looking for attention they will try various things to get it. When they find that doing things that piss you off gets you to give them the most amount of attention, they will continue to do it.
So what do you do when a child/dog does something that pisses you off only to get your attention? Don't give them any attention when they do those things and they will eventually realize that their actions yield no results. |
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| THEONE |
| This post has turned into a waste of time like most posts latly! Okay you guys know everything and the guys doing the work on the top cars know, or are not willing to disclose anything! You win! I give up! :wtf: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
This post has turned into a waste of time like most posts latly! Okay you guys know everything and the guys doing the work on the top cars know, or are not willing to disclose anything! You win! I give up! :wtf:
How is this thread a waste of time?
I could do without certain people WHO WERE UNINVOLVED in any technical aspect of the thread stepping in and flaming members of the debate, but that is all.
I think this is what Stealthgtsr was attempting to link to....
I have quoted the following from that website:
quote:
CONNECTION LEVEL IV.5
Alright...you guys twisted our arms enough. Once kept secret within shop walls, is now available for the most discriminating taste. This level is equivalent to our Level 4 head except we squeezed in 2mm over valves. How is this done? Ancient Chinese secret but we can say that you can count on a 10-12 CFM higher flow through each port than the Level 4 just by using these insanely larger than factory valves. As with the Level 4 head, the valves are included. Does NOT include cams, rockers, or lifters.
Note: Use of this head requires flycutting of your pistons for proper clearance. Don't feel like taking chances with an unknowing machinist? Just send the pistons in with your head and we'll flycut them for you for 85 bucks.
$1950 using your core
CONNECTION LEVEL V
"DEATH"
Just when you thought it was safe and couldn't be done. This head basically involves a FULL comp porting/polishing but with a twist. This crazy flowing monster is a 2G head! How is it possible? We are using 2mm oversized SI valves, raising the intake "roof", and relocating the injector ports in the process. We use the 2G head platform because of it's raised intake floor which makes for a straighter shot of fuel/air right to the backside of the intake valves. What does this mean? It means that at this level, a sheetmetal intake and a modded fuel rail is necessary...which aint no big deal if you think you actually need a head like this.
This head is the absolute epitome of Mitsubishi head performance with a flow of over 308 CFM through each port! If you're shooting for the top and serious about your placement within the DSM camp, call for details on how you too can own "death" and still come out alive.
$$$ Too scary too print. Check your Visa card limit, sell your kidney, or put a second mortgage on your house. Then call for a price.
Their "Death" Connection Level V head flows over 308 CFM through each port.
The following is a link to the Pro Drag Performance Inc. Level 3 Head flow chart, after being Extreme Honed with the Power Port Process.
Here is a Pro Drag Performance Level 3 Head, after Extreme Honing.
The level 3 PDP head does not utilize oversized valves whatsoever, you also don't have to "flycut your pistons" like you do on the FFWD connection Level V "Death" head. Also the injector ports have not been moved whatsoever. |
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| stealthgtsr |
Acttually Blaine, I was trying to post the intake manifold results ( the Extrude honed stock intake out flowed the sheet metal intake !).
But the head flow results are also impresive . There is a clicky on the indution page under Extrude hone shows flow test results .
I hope that by providing non affiliated sites and info that we are offering some facts on this matter instead of just quoting A magazine or saying a guy told us so
even if they are americans? I guess that has more pull than a Canadian ?
Certainally there are head porters out there that can bring a cylinder head alive
but as you can see in Prodrags link (quote) at 1600 + USD. the good work isnt cheap and you still have to have an intake that can flow the big #s to feed that head . Which is what this thread started out to ask . Sorry if any one has been offended by that info provided but the haters disappeared when the facts started to appear, that is all we intended to do , take away the mystery and provide some good tech info .The reason for starting Extremehone was I had my Stealth intake and exhaust manifolds Extrude honed 4 years ago and by only adding an extra fuel injector i was able to drop my ets from a 13.27 @ 96 to 12.46 @ 111 mph
11.73 @ 119 In mission with a homemade 75 shot ! this car has only minimal mods no after market part except the KN fipk every thing else is just old school hotrodding. This was one of the big influences for us setting up Extreme hone
we have had only very satisfied customer with no negetive results !
With better throttle response increased fuel economy and more power it sounds like an impossible mod but if you look a the science behind it you will understand
how it provides these results. |
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| THEONE |
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
Acttually Blaine, I was trying to post the intake manifold results ( the Extrude honed stock intake out flowed the sheet metal intake !).
But the head flow results are also impresive . There is a clicky on the indution page under Extrude hone shows flow test results .
I hope that by providing non affiliated sites and info that we are offering some facts on this matter instead of just quoting A magazine or saying a guy told us so
even if they are americans? I guess that has more pull than a Canadian ?
Certainally there are head porters out there that can bring a cylinder head alive
but as you can see in Prodrags link (quote) at 1600 + USD. the good work isnt cheap and you still have to have an intake that can flow the big #s to feed that head . Which is what this thread started out to ask . Sorry if any one has been offended by that info provided but the haters disappeared when the facts started to appear, that is all we intended to do , take away the mystery and provide some good tech info .The reason for starting Extremehone was I had my Stealth intake and exhaust manifolds Extrude honed 4 years ago and by only adding an extra fuel injector i was able to drop my ets from a 13.27 @ 96 to 12.46 @ 111 mph
11.73 @ 119 In mission with a homemade 75 shot ! this car has only minimal mods no after market part except the KN fipk every thing else is just old school hotrodding. This was one of the big influences for us setting up Extreme hone
we have had only very satisfied customer with no negetive results !
With better throttle response increased fuel economy and more power it sounds like an impossible mod but if you look a the science behind it you will understand
how it provides these results.
:bs:
You are missleading people to believe extrude honing your manifolds well take a second of your time! Are you saying you didn't raise your boost or adjust your tune up (with this added injector)! A true comparisson would be drive car, switch out manifolds drive car again with same tune, boost, 60ft, and shifting! Now I don't know about anyone else but I would believe professionals from the STATES opinion over that totaly un scientifc track results! I'm not saying that Extude honing is garbage and I have never said that! But gaining a second is never that easy and I can atest to that! I'm thinking about getting my exhaust manifold done myself, but do I expect to take a second off my time! NO! Oh I guess your here say test mean more then my opinion anyway! :wacko: Oh and which sheet metal manifold did it out flow? Quick phone Shep and tell him he should take his sheet metal manifold off and run your extrude honed stokck one! :blink: Not trying to start shit but people get on here and only show one side of the story! I believe they call that propaganda! |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
Acttually Blaine, I was trying to post the intake manifold results ( the Extrude honed stock intake out flowed the sheet metal intake !).
But the head flow results are also impresive . There is a clicky on the indution page under Extrude hone shows flow test results .
I hope that by providing non affiliated sites and info that we are offering some facts on this matter instead of just quoting A magazine or saying a guy told us so
even if they are americans? I guess that has more pull than a Canadian ?
Certainally there are head porters out there that can bring a cylinder head alive
but as you can see in Prodrags link (quote) at 1600 + USD. the good work isnt cheap and you still have to have an intake that can flow the big #s to feed that head . Which is what this thread started out to ask . Sorry if any one has been offended by that info provided but the haters disappeared when the facts started to appear, that is all we intended to do , take away the mystery and provide some good tech info .The reason for starting Extremehone was I had my Stealth intake and exhaust manifolds Extrude honed 4 years ago and by only adding an extra fuel injector i was able to drop my ets from a 13.27 @ 96 to 12.46 @ 111 mph
11.73 @ 119 In mission with a homemade 75 shot ! this car has only minimal mods no after market part except the KN fipk every thing else is just old school hotrodding. This was one of the big influences for us setting up Extreme hone
we have had only very satisfied customer with no negetive results !
With better throttle response increased fuel economy and more power it sounds like an impossible mod but if you look a the science behind it you will understand
how it provides these results.
:bs:
You are missleading people to believe extrude honing your manifolds well take a second of your time! Are you saying you didn't raise your boost or adjust your tune up (with this added injector)! A true comparisson would be drive car, switch out manifolds drive car again with same tune, boost, 60ft, and shifting! Now I don't know about anyone else but I would believe professionals from the STATES opinion over that totaly un scientifc track results! I'm not saying that Extude honing is garbage and I have never said that! But gaining a second is never that easy and I can atest to that! I'm thinking about getting my exhaust manifold done myself, but do I expect to take a second off my time! NO! Oh I guess your here say test mean more then my opinion anyway! :wacko: Oh and which sheet metal manifold did it out flow? Quick phone Shep and tell him he should take his sheet metal manifold off and run your extrude honed stokck one! :blink: Not trying to start shit but people get on here and only show one side of the story! I believe they call that propaganda!
Stealth GTsr is not trying to misslead people. I have known him a short while, but he is a STAND UP guy, who truly believes in his product.
You don't seem to have anything to say about my post, I am not spreading propaganda. I lay out both sides of the debate and let the consumer make the call.
Your comment on John Shepherd's Sheetmetal intake manifold is a little misleading. As you should know, the major gain from a Sheetmetal Intake is the increase in volume of the plenum of the intake. The factory cast 4G63 intake manifold is a pretty good design, but the plenum is a little too small, hence the power nosing over at around 6500RPM.
The plenum being too small becomes obvious when you begin to do mods to the car and get into the realm of bigger turbo's and high boost and EXTREME RPM.
Shepherd revs to 9000 RPM with 35lbs of boost on tap plus nitrous, that is why he runs a sheetmetal. I don't think the regular street/strip enthusiast NEEDS a sheetmetal if they are retaining the factory redline. It sure is a beautiful piece to look at no matter which way you slice it. :bigthumbup: |
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| stealthgtsr |
quote:
Originally posted by THEONE
quote:
Originally posted by stealthgtsr
Acttually Blaine, I was trying to post the intake manifold results ( the Extrude honed stock intake out flowed the sheet metal intake !).
But the head flow results are also impresive . There is a clicky on the indution page under Extrude hone shows flow test results .
I hope that by providing non affiliated sites and info that we are offering some facts on this matter instead of just quoting A magazine or saying a guy told us so
even if they are americans? I guess that has more pull than a Canadian ?
Certainally there are head porters out there that can bring a cylinder head alive
but as you can see in Prodrags link (quote) at 1600 + USD. the good work isnt cheap and you still have to have an intake that can flow the big #s to feed that head . Which is what this thread started out to ask . Sorry if any one has been offended by that info provided but the haters disappeared when the facts started to appear, that is all we intended to do , take away the mystery and provide some good tech info .The reason for starting Extremehone was I had my Stealth intake and exhaust manifolds Extrude honed 4 years ago and by only adding an extra fuel injector i was able to drop my ets from a 13.27 @ 96 to 12.46 @ 111 mph
11.73 @ 119 In mission with a homemade 75 shot ! this car has only minimal mods no after market part except the KN fipk every thing else is just old school hotrodding. This was one of the big influences for us setting up Extreme hone
we have had only very satisfied customer with no negetive results !
With better throttle response increased fuel economy and more power it sounds like an impossible mod but if you look a the science behind it you will understand
how it provides these results.
:bs:
You are missleading people to believe extrude honing your manifolds well take a second of your time! Are you saying you didn't raise your boost or adjust your tune up (with this added injector)! A true comparisson would be drive car, switch out manifolds drive car again with same tune, boost, 60ft, and shifting! Now I don't know about anyone else but I would believe professionals from the STATES opinion over that totaly un scientifc track results! I'm not saying that Extude honing is garbage and I have never said that! But gaining a second is never that easy and I can atest to that! I'm thinking about getting my exhaust manifold done myself, but do I expect to take a second off my time! NO! Oh I guess your here say test mean more then my opinion anyway! :wacko: Oh and which sheet metal manifold did it out flow? Quick phone Shep and tell him he should take his sheet metal manifold off and run your extrude honed stokck one! :blink: Not trying to start shit but people get on here and only show one side of the story! I believe they call that propaganda!
quote:
undefined
Sorry if you felt misled but my car did pick up almost 8 tenths in the 1/4 with honing the intake and exhaust manifold and as i said adding more fuel . the boost was set at 18 lbs before and after, I dont claim every one will gain this much but
for the 1400 usd it cost i felt it was money well spent as there is little or no aftermarket for this car . the intake manifold was desinged for hood clearance not really for performance and the exhaust is fairly restrictive as well . the only other change was water injection that was installed before the porting . I am not saying this process is the only mod you need to make but with tuning and hard work on your combo it can help as you know THEONE it takes a complete package that works together to produce results . If you would like to we could hone your ex manifold and do the back to back test you mentioned . no improvement no charge!I strongly belive in the process and am willing to work with racers to develop it even further .
Regards,
Darryl |
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