| A lesson is "Stereo Phonics" - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Darkrid3r |
What is "Stereo Phonics", well its kinda like hooked on phonics of the car stereo world. And yes it worked for me :D
Anyway....
I had my stereo beefed up this spring, all was good but over time my light dimming issue has been getting worse and worse. I did a bit of research (but obviously not enough)
I went to see my buddie at certified radio and pickced up a 2.2 fered power cap, just a cheep one 160 bucks (my special deal :D )
Anyway after a beeting on NFS underground i decided to go install it, not totaly a big deal.
Got out all my gear and got to work, being on the "Stereo Phonics" program I though all was well. Did i blow anything up. hell no! Thank god for instructions hehe.
Needless to say after 3.5 hours of work i finaly got the dam thing in and played a bit, but it was 12:30 am and did not want to piss off my wife hehe.
My soldder job sucks and needs to be redone in a professional mannor, and
THIS DID NOT FIX MY LIGHT DIM ISSUE (and my friend should have know this being a graduate of the "Stereo Phonics Program Level 32") However.......
I have much cleaner bass now, and i can have the volume at 19 before the lights decide to blink blink dim blink.
Anyway with a a couple more hours of research I found a website that explains it all in fairly good detail. (i will post it tonight when i get home)
For all you noobs just remember a cap is just that a capacitor, it simply holds power and supplies the AMP with extra power on the serious bass hits, it still has to recharge on the non bass hit, thus the light dim issue still exsists due to the recharge.
So my quest continues...Now looking for an Alternator, perhaps part source has one. 5,000 amps should be enough, MUhahahhahahah (im going to need more horse power to run it :P )
And my life goes on...........
Dark |
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| Darkrid3r |
Anyone know a site online that I can find an alternator for a mazda protege5 2002
Dark |
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| scooby_dooby |
man, i could have told you a cap DOES NOT REDUCE DIMMING. Caps are for SPL competitions only, when you need every bit of power to hit that one note. They're a total scam as far as a daily driver goes, just eye candy really.
Return that cap and Get a Optima Yellowtop Battery for less $$$, this will work. these have solved peoples dimming problems time and time again. |
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| Darkrid3r |
scooby,
I leanred my lesson, however i need the cap anyway when i change my subs next year so its all good.
I dont think the yellow top will solve my issue in the long run either, the simple fact of the matter is that im pulling way more power than the stock alternator can supply.
How much i have no idea, but i know the stock alt puts out 55amps at idle and 65 at 3k rpm, these numbers are perdy close but i forget exact numbers. I asked mazda the other day.
If i change my door speakers (4 of them) and my subs next year i will definatly be way over and into the alt killing zone.
I figure a yellow top and a new alt should solve my power needs.
I have not even done neon yet! and forget about running fog lights EVER hehe.
I think 120 amp alternator should be better than my stock one but will I end up over chargin the batt?
Dark |
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| WeDgE |
Not even SPL competitors use "caps", they know better than that. :) Caps are just a band-aid for an under-powered charging system. If anything, go with a bigger alternator, the bigger the better. I'd at least try to get an alt in the 150A range, and no it won't overcharge your battery, lol.
Getting just a battery won't help solve your light dimming issues when the car is on...the battery would only become effective once your voltage drops to ~12V. By then your alt is hurting pretty badly because of the extra drain and your lights have already dimmed. |
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| Z3r03rr0r |
| the bigger alternator won't kill your battery that is why you have a voltage regulator |
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| Darkrid3r |
| Thanx guys, i just have to find a place to get one and how much it will be. |
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| scooby_dooby |
i'd honestly try the yellow top first, most people think "ah it's just a battery, how can it help?" but from real life experience the yellow top almost alwyas gets rid of people dimming, or at least makes a huge difference.
I'd go with the yellowtop first, only buy the alternator if you really have to. You can get yellowtops at costco and canadian tire |
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| 2000z |
Before you buy anything (battery, alternator or getting yours rewound) upgrade your alternator and battery cables to 4 or 2 awg cable. This completely fixed my dimming and it was pretty severe. It also only cost $25.
I had to learn about caps the hard way too. I didn't research before I bought one and I bet I read the same website you did that explains why they're uselss.
After that, look at a rewound alternator, 150 is a pretty good number IF that is at idle. My stocker is pretty good at 105.
After that look at an Optima battery. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby
i'd honestly try the yellow top first, most people think "ah it's just a battery, how can it help?" but from real life experience the yellow top almost alwyas gets rid of people dimming, or at least makes a huge difference.
I'd go with the yellowtop first, only buy the alternator if you really have to. You can get yellowtops at costco and canadian tire
The Yellow top would be another bandaid. It is a better battery that is designed to discharge quickly according to demand. That's why it masks the "flickering".
The real problem has already been diagnosed in this thread. He needs a higher output alternator.
Powermaster does not list an application for the Protege5 but we have custom fit alternators before. I've got a "micro" 140 AMP Alternator that costs $203. It would require custom installation however. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by 2000z
Before you buy anything (battery, alternator or getting yours rewound) upgrade your alternator and battery cables to 4 or 2 awg cable. This completely fixed my dimming and it was pretty severe. It also only cost $25.
More good advice. :bigthumbup: |
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| Darkrid3r |
I was reading about the rewound issue and I dont understand how it actualy works.
I agree with the yellow top bandaid, its just that, the discharge rate is what makes the flicker go away, I run my car hard all the time so the only time the batt has a chance to charge is when my wife is in the car :rolleyes: and it aint that often.
Blaine,
Where is your shop dude. I think i will roll on by around the 17th or so.
Whats the pain on the custom install?
Should i rewind my current one instead or just get the bigger one.
I dont need another bandaid solution, i was looking at new concept amps with box and 4 new door speakers. This will put an additional load on the car so I need to plan for the future.
Dark |
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| 2000z |
Call a reliable alternator shop and see how much your current one can be re-wound. If it is around 150 amps than I'd say go for it, it will be a lot cheaper than buying a new one.
Make sure to upgrade your cables no matter what. This is not a band-aid this is a fix.
If you do buy a new one, make sure it is rated at idle not at a higher rpm. Many places will sell a "200 amp" alternator when it will only put that out at over 2000 rpm. Many of these actually put out less than a stock alternator at idle.
It sounds like Blaine wil be able to help you out no matter what you decide :bigthumbup: |
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| ManHunter |
Hmmm, caps are a good way to regulate the power source to the amps. You want to have the electrical power going into your amps as linear as possible, with no spikes or drops. That's why you use a capacitor.
MH |
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| Darkrid3r |
ManHunter,
I have noticed a jump in how clean the bass is, also the volume is up a little as well.
Dark |
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| Dopey88 |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby
man, i could have told you a cap DOES NOT REDUCE DIMMING. Caps are for SPL competitions only, when you need every bit of power to hit that one note. They're a total scam as far as a daily driver goes, just eye candy really.
Return that cap and Get a Optima Yellowtop Battery for less $$$, this will work. these have solved peoples dimming problems time and time again.
Ralphie
(sorry for stepping on your toes scooby)
Can you tell me how a cap does not reduce dimming??? Now does a cap not take load off a charging system??? Now the cause of dimming is too much draw on a cars charging system. So would a cap not help????
Also why whould an OPTIMA yellow top battery work??? A yellow top is JUST a deep cycle gel cell battery. What that means is that you can deep cycle (drain) the battery. In heavy cycling (big ass stereo) or high cycling applications (keeping the car's accessorys on with out starting the car), a vehicle will pull unusually high amperage levels from the starting battery due to extra accessories or limited alternator capacity. What you would want is the OPTIMA red top the starting battery the red top discharges faster keeping up with the load.
The next thing you will want to do is upgrade your power wire from the alternator like 2000z mentioned and also up grade your grounds. |
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| 2000z |
I can say that a cap does not reduce dimming because there was NO difference in my dimming between having my capacitor and not having it. There was a great website with about a 30 page thread where a guy explained how and why a capacitor is useless and everything he said made sense.
So I can't tell you how a cap does not reduce dimming, only that it doesn't. I'll keep looking for that site though.
How does a cap take a load off the charging system? It needs to be charged by something when it is drained and that would be creating a load on the charging system. The millisecond of usefulness it provides before it is drained and ineffective could not be heard or seen in my system. |
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| WeDgE |
cap = crap
:)
Go Alternator!! |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Dopey88
Also why whould an OPTIMA yellow top battery work??? A yellow top is JUST a deep cycle gel cell battery. What that means is that you can deep cycle (drain) the battery. In heavy cycling (big ass stereo) or high cycling applications (keeping the car's accessorys on with out starting the car), a vehicle will pull unusually high amperage levels from the starting battery due to extra accessories or limited alternator capacity. What you would want is the OPTIMA red top the starting battery the red top discharges faster keeping up with the load.
According to the Optima Batteries Website
quote:
14. When should I consider a deep cycle?
Any time you need the battery to supply all the operating power for a vehicle or other device. Additionally, deep cycle batteries should be used in vehicles that have heavy accessory loads where the alternator cannot maintain the battery in a fully charged condition.
Optima seems to think the Yellow Top is the way to go. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Darkrid3r
Blaine,
Where is your shop dude. I think i will roll on by around the 17th or so.
Whats the pain on the custom install?
Shop address is 10031-167 St.
Custom install could entail custom bracketry and some wiring. We would have to see your car to be sure. |
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| SplineZ |
First things first.. the amp does not pull the current directly from the alternator. You can get away with a smaller alternator. Its just there to charge your battery. Mind you it will charge quicker with a larger alternator. Ive seen some that make upto 250amps, You can electric-arc weld with these ones. Perfect for your high-output stereo! :)
Your battery NEEDS to be very very strong. I dont care who makes the best batteries. Its just manditory, and a smart move reguardless.
You need an EXCELLENT ground. None of this stupid lil 10gauge wire crap. Specially if your running something like 600-1000W. You WILL need atleast 4-2 gauge ground wires, and about the same for power wires. Soldered joints MUST be shiney, and solder should have penitrated everywhere for a good contact. Shrinktube the solder joints to keep from corrosion. A good ground is to a solid place on your chassis, wirebrush it bare, and use a stainless steel screw to fasten. Make sure your battery is grounded with a low gauge wire to the frame aswell.
A cap is a VERY smart move if you have an amplifier with a regulated power supply. These amps are expecting 12v input, and if it drops below that voltage; it WILL DIE QUICKLY. Sony amps are regulated, MTX's are non-regulated. You can usually tell by looking at the power ratings in the manual. If its rated for 12v only, its probly regulated. If its rated for 12v and 14.4v and give 2 different power outputs, its non-regulated or some sort of proprietary powering scheme.
IMHO, having a capacitor would seem to "unload" the electrical system in your car for a split second to feed the amp. It should REDUCE dimming, but not eliminate it if there is something else wrong. (eg: weak ground)
You could skip all the uberbattery and ubercap crap by running dual batteries. Best of both worlds there :)
James Z |
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| WeDgE |
A cap isn't a smart move period...where does all this extra juice come from? the cap? no...the battery? no...the alternator? yes
A cap is nothing but a band-aid for a larger problem...current draw. Only way to remedy that is to get a bigger alternator.
Do you think your battery jumps up to 14.4V as soon as you start the car on it's own? I sure hope not because that higher voltage is coming from your alternator...anything about 12.5V or whatever it is your battery tests at is coming from the alt. The only reason you would need a really "strong" battery is if you listen to your stereo at high volumes with the engine OFF, otherwise it's your alternator supply the bulk of the current.
A larger alternator is the BEST way to solve a current draw problem, period. |
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| probetunerforlife |
i myself have had systems with and with out a cap. a cap took care of my lights dimming but iam also only running 300watts. now from what i know it is a bandaid but we also need to say that when playing an amplifier hard , we will say our lights are dimming with out a cap in this system! now the amp as the big bass note hits the amp sees regulare voltage and amps now as time goes on the voltage drops right, we all agree?
now the amp has to pull more amperage to compensate for the lack of voltage so it pulles it from the easyest places and so on.
All that means is the cap, battery, alternater all play togther to make power for the amp. two batteries would allow your lights to get full power while your playing your stereo but also with this setup you also overtaxe the alternater.
lets do some math here!
stock car needs to have lets say 72amps total at night. plus the system deck, changer, subs and door speakers we will say that all needs 60amps which is very easy to do with the amount of bass some people like.
now we are at 132amps over our stock 72amps and all at 12 volts!
see were iam going with this?
now upgrading the battery would work for its discharge rates all the cheap batteries are slow were optimas are not but they come with a price and also caps are the same with there esr values. but the best way to do a trouble free system is to do all three battery cap alternater |
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| WeDgE |
Your car should not be dimming with only 300W, unless you are severely clipping your amp or you have very, very poor grounds.
Do you know the reason why voltage drops when you push larger amplifiers on a stock alternator? The alternator can't supply the current! Solution? Install larger alternator.
Batteries play no role when your car is running...it is operating above 12V (some vehicle's batteries may hold a higher voltage). Even if you added a second battery to you stock charging system it won't help with voltage drops when the car is running!! It would help extend the "off-key" listening time (engine off), though.
You seem to be stuck on this notion that the car's power source is running at 12V when the car is on...well it isn't, it runs at ~14.4V...coming from the alternator, not batteries.
Caps would be good, except they have a downfall...they discharge quickly and then become an EXTRA load on the alternator as soon as they're discharged...doesn't quite help to solve the problem now does it.
Best way to do the charging system in your vehicle is...larger alternator, upgrade the "BIG 3" wires, deep cycle battery (if you do alot of listening with the engine off). No cap needed whatsoever! |
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| probetunerforlife |
you should reread my first post! my lights dont dim and also caps charge to full capicty it one second and they are to stableize the voltage so you dont pull as more current than is requird and from my own expriences i found they are needed.
tell you what come over to my place and i will demonstrate and you are right 14.4 is were you should be but with the cars now with computers and such runing at the same time my voltage gauge on my amp says 13.8 .
but so this does not turn into a flame WAR i will say and agree that we are all right in the fact that caps dont do much but combined with a good battery and a alternater that is putting out more than stock you will have no problems. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by probetunerforlife
a cap took care of my lights dimming but iam also only running 300watts.
Ummm...
Large caps WOULD work great, but they all have high ESR values which is useless... :(
probe if the voltage at your battery is indeed 14.4V and the reading at your amp is 13.8V then you probably have a bad ground...which means you could be missing out on some free power! Though, if you both voltages at the battery and amp are 13.8V then there isn't anything you can do... :(
Peace B) |
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| probetunerforlife |
nope not much i can do ! but i have taken a break from car audio to do some preformance upgrades and revamp the system. iam sure my alternater is weak and my battery is not up to par . and as for anything bad about caps call a audio store and find out.
\
yes caps depend on esr's but any cap is still quicker than a battery. |
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| ManHunter |
I'm running 2 yellowtop batteries, with 3 caps, 1 for each amp. But yes, if the problem is current draw, you need a bigger alternator and/or 2 batteries. The caps won't solve any current draw problems, they should be used only to regulate power to the amps.
MH |
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| probetunerforlife |
| thats what i was saying and thats why my lights dont dim any more. the more current to an amp the better the less current means more heat and that is bad. |
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| 2000z |
quote:
Originally posted by WeDgE
A cap isn't a smart move period...where does all this extra juice come from? the cap? no...the battery? no...the alternator? yes
A cap is nothing but a band-aid for a larger problem...current draw. Only way to remedy that is to get a bigger alternator.
Do you think your battery jumps up to 14.4V as soon as you start the car on it's own? I sure hope not because that higher voltage is coming from your alternator...anything about 12.5V or whatever it is your battery tests at is coming from the alt. The only reason you would need a really "strong" battery is if you listen to your stereo at high volumes with the engine OFF, otherwise it's your alternator supply the bulk of the current.
A larger alternator is the BEST way to solve a current draw problem, period.
Correct. You know what you're talking about. |
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| probetunerforlife |
| i do know what iam talking about! but everyone has their own opion and iam not going to fight to tell them how it is. I will wait till they see the light from me or someone else. been dealing with car audio for 4 years now . but just hope noone hurts their electrical system in their car from this thread. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by 2000z
Correct. You know what you're talking about.
Indeed. :)
Thanks |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| Well im a bit of a car audio nut myself. One tried and tested method is this. Get a HO alternator, like a 140 A one. Then upgrade the alt->batt wire with thicker gage wire and then you shouldnt have problems. dont bother with caps, generally, they dont give you the results you seek. If you really want to get fancy, also get a yellow top, but generally, this only helps with mainting a stereo when your car is off. Also, its very easy to have a 500w system and have some major light dim. I have a 500w system and I get quite noticable dim, especially with neons on. it depends on the quality of the system on how much power its sucking up. Trying to compare a 500w sony explode system to my system would be a waste of time due to quality and power of the system. So yes, its very likely he could get lights dimming. Espescially if its only an 80 amp alternator. |
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| probetunerforlife |
wow it is amazing how you all think!
a cap regulates and you do need one because your alternater cant keep up with the demands of your amp and the cap regulates the power to the amp and voltage and with out one you are not getting the full power of the amp you bought espeicially if you got an amp with a non regulated power supply so it will put out less power but more heat.
eg- 12 volts = 100 watts
- 13.8 volts= 250 watts
- 14.4 volts= 350 watts
thats how it works with all amps but not as drasic with regulated power supply amps like alpine / sony.
all of that does not matter on amps like jl audio amps with the rip tecnholgy in them.
the only other thing i can say is get togther with me and to prove you wrong i will put my 1 farad cap on your system and show you what they can do.
the reason spl compeiters use lots of batteries is because at some events they can not run the engine and need the power to charge the caps.
who is up to the challange to prove they do work and work great? :) |
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| 2000z |
I'll take you up on that. I had a 1 farad cap with an LED display in my current system.
2- 12" Audiobahn AW1200s- 700rms each
Kenwood Excelon X810D amp, running at 1 ohm
kenwood excelon head unit
planet audio 5.25" door speakers, factory rear 6x9s.
It did NOTHING for my dimming. As far as regulating the power supply, how can it regulate when it is completly drained?
Why don't we (me, wedge, you, Blaine) meet somewhere and perform the test. We'll look for a reduction in dimming (I'll put my old cables back on to bring back the problem) and we can hook up a multimeter to see if the amp sees a different voltage with the cap and without.
Sound fair/good? Then we can post the results so everyone can be informed. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by 2000z
Why don't we (me, wedge, you, Blaine) meet somewhere and perform the test. We'll look for a reduction in dimming (I'll put my old cables back on to bring back the problem) and we can hook up a multimeter to see if the amp sees a different voltage with the cap and without.
Sound fair/good? Then we can post the results so everyone can be informed.
I'd be up for that. I bet that the amp would see a more extreme lower value (voltage-wise) when using cap than without...simply because once drained, the cap becomes an additional load on the alternator.
My car won't be much help because I don't have a sub or sub amp in it, so I doubt I'll be pulling much current... :D |
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| probetunerforlife |
iam up for that.
so will the test be at idle or 2000 for the test. |
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| SplineZ |
hehe i want to see htis for myself :D
James Z |
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| jasonmt |
| I find it interesting how some of the responders in this thread seem to think that the first law of thermodynamics do not apply to them! I will relate my experiences with this problem. My car had lots of P.G. & B.A. goodies in it and of course had the dimming problem, not to mention that the battery would go dead if I let it idle for more than 30 minutes with the system turned up loud. Wired with 2 guage from the battery back to fuse/distribution block. Various crackheads suggested the cap or a deep cycle battery as solutions, one unamed shop even went as far as to install a cap with the agreement that I wouldn't pay for anything if it did not solve the problem. I never did pay for that cap, the solution was a 150A alternator. |
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| SplineZ |
where the heck is Erfinder when ya need him? :)
Everyone has voiced their opinions... We need an electronic engineer or something to speak on the subject...
Not that i dont trust anyone, but it seems we need a definate, end all statement.
James Z |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
Not that i dont trust anyone, but it seems we need a definate, end all statement.
Caps don't solve the problem...alternators do. |
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| jasonmt |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
where the heck is Erfinder when ya need him? :)
Everyone has voiced their opinions... We need an electronic engineer or something to speak on the subject...
Not that i dont trust anyone, but it seems we need a definate, end all statement.
James Z
This is not definitive, not end all, but anybody can feel free to search the net and/or take some classes at U of A or NAIT to confirm the validity:
Anybody who has even taken a high school physics class should have been taught that a capacitor is a PASSIVE device which stores electric charge. Given that Q=VC a 1Farad capacitor will store 13 Amp-seconds of charge when charged to 13 volts. A double A battery stores about 2.8 Amp-hours or 10,000 Amp-seconds (775 times more than the capacitor) of charge. The only thing the capacitor is doing is storing charge when the amplifier(s) are under a period of low current draw and supplying charge when the amplifier(s) are under a period of high current draw. The advantage of the capacitor is that it is able to discharge and recharge very quickly which is what gives the amplifiers the increased headroom and better transient response. All of this current is being supplied by the electrical system in your car, with the only device that is changing mechanical energy into electrical energy being the alternator. As far as the deep cycle vs. starting battery they are both STORAGE devices, the electrical energy from a battery is simply stored energy from the alternator. The reason why some batteries appear to somewhat solve the dimming problems is due to the different electrical characteristics of the original and replacement batteries. A standard lead acid battery being replaced with a VRLA/AGM battery (I.E. an Optima) are going to have different electrical characteristics with the Peukert effect coming to mind. Below is a graph of available capacity vs. Amp draw for a given size battery, with n being the Peukert number. Google on The Peukert Effect for more information.
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| SplineZ |
I considder my self proven wrong :)
James Z |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by jasonmt
better transient response
Though I agree with everything you said, you're not going to change the "transient response" of an amplifier by supplying it with more current. You may think you have, but that's because the amplifier is able to supply the subwoofer with more current, making it louder...perception would be "better" transient response because of the increase in volume.
But if we're talking about subwoofers, then sure you can change it's transient response with different enclosures...even the transfer function of different vehicles will affect the perceived transient response. Transient response is largely dictated by the speakers inductance. |
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| ManHunter |
I believe that's the definitive answer. :)
MH |
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| jasonmt |
quote:
Originally posted by WeDgE
quote:
Originally posted by jasonmt
better transient response
Though I agree with everything you said, you're not going to change the "transient response" of an amplifier by supplying it with more current. You may think you have, but that's because the amplifier is able to supply the subwoofer with more current, making it louder...perception would be "better" transient response because of the increase in volume.
But if we're talking about subwoofers, then sure you can change it's transient response with different enclosures...even the transfer function of different vehicles will affect the perceived transient response. Transient response is largely dictated by the speakers inductance.
Perhaps I should have stated perceived transient response. In this case perception IS reality no? Because at this point acoustics devolves to psychoacoustics. |
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| probetunerforlife |
yes you do in prove transent respone of and amp with giving it more current and it runs cooler. but you may need a rta to here it.
now are we talking regulated or un regulated/ small system or big because it depends on whats all running at the time.
on small systems with two subs total of 400watts running a 1 farad cap would do more for it than if the same cap was on 800 watt system.
and also when running caps they work better at 2ohms than at 4 ohms but still work oncurrent flow.
HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE CHARGE A CAP?
they take 30 seconds when brand new to charge for the first one then after that one second count it and tell me how much of a load it is on the alternater, it is f**k all. its your amp that is hitting the alternater hard with load the cap helps lessen it . and on small systems like my little 300 watts dimming is not a problem |
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| 2000z |
First, a big hats off to everyone who has made this an informative, non-flaming thread.
:wavey:
Second, it only takes a second to charge. That is the point, it only takes a second to discharge as well. Which renders it useless. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by jasonmt
Perhaps I should have stated perceived transient response. In this case perception IS reality no? Because at this point acoustics devolves to psychoacoustics.
There ya go... ;)
Perception is reality for those that don't know any better...for the more technically knowledgable know why the change occured, they don't accept it at face value. I'm kinda going off on a tangent here, but it's all good. :) |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by probetunerforlife
yes you do in prove transent respone of and amp with giving it more current and it runs cooler. but you may need a rta to here it.
You don't change the transient response on an amp by giving it more current...
RTA won't show you jack for transient response...just like it won't/can't tell you if your soundstage is spot on... |
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| jasonmt |
quote:
Originally posted by WeDgE
quote:
Originally posted by jasonmt
Perhaps I should have stated perceived transient response. In this case perception IS reality no? Because at this point acoustics devolves to psychoacoustics.
There ya go... ;)
Perception is reality for those that don't know any better...for the more technically knowledgable know why the change occured, they don't accept it at face value. I'm kinda going off on a tangent here, but it's all good. :)
I did a few papers on psychoacoustics when I was forced to take psych classes. Rather interesting subject, Sony and Phillips have both done a large volume of research for implementation of their compression technology. Also an easy way to screw over your psych prof. with his liberal arts degree! |
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| probetunerforlife |
tell you what ? you can believe your papers and text but i believe my back chest and ears that they do work.
works for me how about you?
thanks for the fun of discussing this topic. peace out |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| Ok well im talking electrical courses at NAIT, so I know a little something about caps and electronics. One thing I have noticed is the idea that caps will only take 1 second to charge and 1 second to discharge. This can be true DEPENDING ON THE CAP SYSTEM! but caps work in unison with resistors. These resistors change the charge/discharge time. Now depending on the cap, these resistor values will differ. Im not going to break out my notes on caps and go into great detail. While caps work well for for some electronics, they dont work very well with car audio. Ask guys who are in the competitions, they will most likely all recommend a better alt and wire than getting a cap. |
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| Darkrid3r |
Dam boyz,
I did not mean to start a small war.
I just want a solution :)
Perhaps I should book some time at Certified and take care of my grounds and Solder points. I know for a fact mine are weak because I suck :D
I dont know anyone with a heated garage, So i installed my cap in the semi dark and in the semi cold :o I know it needs work, perhaps i was overly excited on the install. But its like a kid with a new toy.
I will be seeing Blaine @ pro drag for the new alt and install definatly, but not till after christmas, perhaps mid January. I need to survive untill then. Bah HUMBUG!!
Anyway.
We each have a solution to the problem, We have all done a couple different things to work through our issue. But i do agree with Wedge, and some others. I know i have well over 300 watts of 10 inch sub alone My amp is only pushing at 40% or so too i think :blink: And I know im defintaly pulling over my stock 60 amps at idle. As long as I dont play my stereo over 13-15 in the winter I dont get the dimming issue. So I know i can survive till i see Blaine in January as long as I take it easy on my shit.
I'm a computer guy so I dont do much "car" stuff but I am learning, anyone that needs computer shit done, im more than willing to trade services.
Anyone wana take a look at my shit and help me out. Im a poor guy but willing to buy Beer and Pizza. Drop me a PM.
Dark :D |
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| scooby_dooby |
I've heard alot of people, speaking from experiennce, say that a yellow top fixed their dimming that I still believe they work whether they're a band-aid or not they work, unlike caps. Here's what I'd do:
Goto canadian tire buy a yellow top, try it.
if it doesn't work you can bring it back within 90 days for a refund, it just has to appear "unused."
on another note, how's your ground? what's your stock alternator output. I'm not sure what mine is but I run a 450rms amp at about 60% and a 200rms amp at about 80% and I have never seen it dim, ever.
I just have a stock integra alt so maybe there's something wrong with your wiring?
I'd redo it, top to bottom. |
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| Darkrid3r |
scooby,
The grounds definatly need to be replaced.
I purchased the amp at certified, its a concept but unsure what model.
I will have to take a look.
I am driving 2 MTX blue thunder 10 inch subs in a single reflex band pass. They are about 5+ years old now. I could not even find an RMS or WATT ratin on the speaker itself when i took it appart.
I could not tell you how much RMS or raw wattage im pushing to the speakers.
I would love to test it out though.
Dark. |
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| scooby_dooby |
the ground is the most important thing in the whole system, it has to be GOOD!
otherwise you can get some very "wierd" results. |
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| 2000z |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby
I'm not sure what mine is but I run a 450rms amp at about 60% and a 200rms amp at about 80% and I have never seen it dim, ever.
Check out your amps and see what the fuse ratings are. That is the maximum amps they could draw. My alternator is 105a and my amp has 3 30a fuses. 1600 watts rms. So when my amp is peaking I have around 20 amps to run the rest of the car. |
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| scooby_dooby |
| 2x20 for ny little amp, 2x30 for my big one. so 100amps |
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| 2000z |
Also keep in mind, this is in no way even semi-accurate. I don't think amps pull that full amount very often and there is no way to tell at a glance how much they are drawing.
But I think(don't know for a fact) that that those numbers are the maximum amperage you could potentially draw. |
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| Darkrid3r |
There is 3 30s on my amp. Yellow ones.
:D
But 90 amps is to much for my 60 stock alternator hahahahha.
Dark |
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| scooby_dooby |
| aren't Yellow's 20? green's are 30. |
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| WeDgE |
| You can pull more amperage than the fuse is rated for a short time...sometimes even double... |
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| Darkrid3r |
Um...
Scooby,
I dono, Thats it, im going to have to get out my flash light now :bigthumbup:
Dark |
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| Darkrid3r |
haha
here it is, my crayola art of my stereo!!
So the question is, Is it installed right. I did it accordin to the book.
Dark |
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| 2000z |
| Yes. The amp and cap should have independant grounds and a common power wire. So you did it right. |
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| Darkrid3r |
I figured as much.
I think i could have goten my Neice to make a better picture too ahhahaha.
Anyway,
I think it is slowly getting worse, this could be because i have to charge the cap too. I have turned down the punch to 1 from 4 and the base to -1 on my deck.
Dark. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by 2000z
Yes. The amp and cap should have independant grounds and a common power wire. So you did it right.
You'd want a common ground (ground distro blocks work great for this) in order to minimize voltage differences. |
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| Darkrid3r |
Wedge,
The book says not a comon ground so i did not use one.
They are on each side of my seats where they attach to the frame of the car.
I get this loud thump now, Im sure the grounds are bad somewhere. First is the under hyper wire ground fix, then the stereo ground fix, then the alternator from Blaine @ prodrag. After that we will see what happens.
Dark |
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| Dopey88 |
| dude I have time tonight/tommorow in the shop if you like just give meh a shout. |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by Darkrid3r
Wedge,
The book says not a comon ground so i did not use one.
They are on each side of my seats where they attach to the frame of the car.
I get this loud thump now, Im sure the grounds are bad somewhere. First is the under hyper wire ground fix, then the stereo ground fix, then the alternator from Blaine @ prodrag. After that we will see what happens.
Dark
I don't know why they would advise against a common ground...everything I've tried independent grounds with my amps I've always wound up with alt whine.
If you must use independent grounds, use your DMM and find the voltage at each of your grounding points, they should be pretty close to each other and close to the reading off the battery. |
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| SplineZ |
Sheet steel should have pretty low resistance and therefor very little difference in groundpoint voltages; correct?
James Z |
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| WeDgE |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
Sheet steel should have pretty low resistance and therefor very little difference in groundpoint voltages; correct?
James Z
You'd be surprised... :) |
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| scooby_dooby |
| i use a splitter to join my grounds into one, I get no whine or dimming so I guess it works good. |
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| probetunerforlife |
common grounds are good things. if the grounds are sperate then a alternater nosie could be introduced in to the system.
the loud thunp you get is caused by a in rush of power to the speakers , thats what turn on delays are for if you have one on the amp. also can becaused by bad grounds. |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| I just wanted everyone to think about this. When you hear people are running several caps you must realise something. Caps in series run like Resistors in parallel and vica versa. if your running several caps in series, you are infact only providing the parallel amount of your caps. Just thought it might be helpful. |
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