| dsm question - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| autot |
| what is the difference on the motor for a 2nd gen talon es to a tsi? reason is, I was thinking about buying an es this year, and adding turbo the next year. Could I grab a turbo kit of a tsi in the future? |
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| curtis_rak |
Esi engine = 420a - 2.0l DOHC - 140hp (same engine as Neon R/T)
Tsi engine = 4g63 - 2.0l DOHC - 210hp
There are turbo kits availiable for $2500-4000 USD that will let you, dependably, run 10psi of boost. I you want more boost, you have to spend upwards of $6000 USD (forgd internals, people are running ~30psi like this)
Basically, if you want to keep up with a modded Tsi in your Esi, you need to spend probably $8000 on top of what the car is worth.
The choice is yours. |
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| SplineZ |
Off topic..
is a 4g63 swappable into a neon with minimal difficulties?
James Z |
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| curtis_rak |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
Off topic..
is a 4g63 swappable into a neon with minimal difficulties?
James Z
no |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by SplineZ
Off topic..
is a 4g63 swappable into a neon with minimal difficulties?
James Z
Not EASILY.
The reason it is difficult to transplant a 4G63T motor into a 420A equipped ESi is because the timing belts are physically on opposite sides of the engine, as well as the transmission. |
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| Anonymoose |
quote:
Originally posted by curtis_rak
Esi engine = 420a - 2.0l DOHC - 140hp (same engine as Neon R/T)
On the Neon (R/T, ACR, and Sport) the head is reversed from that of the Talon and is rated at 150 hp. I've never heard of anyone dropping a 420A into a Neon but there are people who have plopped a D4RE (the Chrysler code for the engine) into an Eclipse without issues.
As for the 4G63T into a Neon, the consensus it that its far cheaper to replace the internals (not necessary for low boost) and throw a turbo system on the original Neon engine than it would ever be to try to do the engine swap. |
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| Keith303 |
talon ESi and neons both have the 420A, exact same.
way more worth your while to just buy a turbo DSM than a N/T, the money that you would spend on a N/T to get it asfast as a stock TSi, high 14/low 15's, that money could be put into A allready turboed car and make it high 12's. |
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| Anonymoose |
quote:
Originally posted by Keith303
talon ESi and neons both have the 420A, exact same.
No. Read the post above yours. |
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| prophet_ca |
quote:
As for the 4G63T into a Neon, the consensus it that its far cheaper to replace the internals (not necessary for low boost) and throw a turbo system on the original Neon engine than it would ever be to try to do the engine swap.
Word to your Moms... B) Neon + Low Boost = better than 4G63T stock
quote:
talon ESi and neons both have the 420A, exact same.
"On the Neon (R/T, ACR, and Sport) the head is reversed from that of the Talon and is rated at 150 hp. I've never heard of anyone dropping a 420A into a Neon but there are people who have plopped a D4RE (the Chrysler code for the engine) into an Eclipse without issues." |
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| Keith303 |
with low boost they wouldnt be any better then a stock 4g63T, there not even that much lighter afnot the same, Im sure the neons have smaller throttle bodies and manifold.
I think they would be weak with just turbo upgrade |
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| mitsuman |
quote:
Word to your Moms... B) Neon + Low Boost = better than 4G63T stock
No, not likely
quote:
"On the Neon (R/T, ACR, and Sport) the head is reversed from that of the Talon and is rated at 150 hp. I've never heard of anyone dropping a 420A into a Neon but there are people who have plopped a D4RE (the Chrysler code for the engine) into an Eclipse without issues."
And No again, its not just the head that is reversed... its a different motor all together dude. |
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| curtis_rak |
This thread has to stop. Way too much misinformation.
To carify the BS.
The 420a is found in Talon Esi, Eclipse RS/GS (to '99), Neon (to '99), Sebring (to '99) and Avenger (to '99).
It is the exact same 420a. However, there is also a 2.0l SOHC that is called the 420a as well. As for the R/T and ACR 420a, they simply have more agressive transmissions.
Check out allpar.com is you like.
PS
The 420a on low boost (5-8psi) might get you ~170-190hp. How would this be better than a 210hp AWD?? |
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| Keith303 |
| i knew they were the same, dsm would rape the neo still |
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| curtis_rak |
quote:
Originally posted by prophet_ca
On the Neon (R/T, ACR, and Sport) the head is reversed from that of the Talon
The Evo 4g63T is oriented the same as the 420a. The 4g63T from a DSM is not. |
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| prophet_ca |
quote:
with low boost they wouldnt be any better then a stock 4g63T, there not even that much lighter afnot the same, Im sure the neons have smaller throttle bodies and manifold. I think they would be weak with just turbo upgrade
quote:
This thread has to stop. Way too much misinformation._ To carify the BS. The 420a is found in Talon Esi, Eclipse RS/GS (to '99), Neon (to '99), Sebring (to '99) and Avenger (to '99). It is the exact same 420a. However, there is also a 2.0l SOHC that is called the 420a as well. As for the R/T and ACR 420a, they simply have more agressive transmissions. Check out allpar.com is you like. PS The 420a on low boost (5-8psi) might get you ~170-190hp. How would this be better than a 210hp AWD??
First off a Dohc Neon with a stock block and low boost (5-9 psi) nets you 170-200 whp not crank which is more than the 195-210hp a 4G63T gives you ( I don't know what a talon stock boost level is) . Thats why I said it was better. Neon owners who look for boost don't even look at swapping in 4G63T because they can boost there engines and net more hp for the cost. As for awd thats another story.
The 420a is NOT the same engine that is in the DOHC Neon (it is similar but not the same), as said before "On the Neon (R/T, ACR, and Sport) the head is reversed from that of the Talon and is rated at 150 hp" also blocks differ by the knock sensor location(always on the intake side) and piston orientation. The bore and stroke is also different. The mounting points are also different Chrysler never called the engine 420a they called it 4dre (Neon) 4sre (cloud cars).
The engines are very similar, but not the same. People just them all 420a because of the similarities.... |
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| curtis_rak |
Actually, I call mine a 420a because thats what it says on the DSM sticker under my hood. But, you took that tidbit off of SRT Forums, I read that too....no one ever did reply to that comment...
As for turboing these cars....why? I used to think that way, until common sense kicked in. |
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| curtis_rak |
| I'd also like to point out that, as far as buying parts is concerned (even internals) 420a is Neon. Eclipse, Talon, Avenger. |
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| prophet_ca |
quote:
Actually, I call mine a 420a because thats what it says on the DSM sticker under my hood. But, you took that tidbit off of SRT Forums, I read that too....no one ever did reply to that comment...
As for turboing these cars....why? I used to think that way, until common sense kicked in.
Thats great you call your car a 420a because thats what it says on the DSM sticker under your hood :blink:, Just don't call a Neon engine that. The shit I wrote was notepad file on what the differents are in the blocks not the SRT Forums. What is wrong with a turbo 420a or a 4dre don't like 400+ whp?
Im done with this thread if you wanna call a engine with a reverse flowing head, different bore and stroke, and piston oreintation the same, go ahead. Then again you could call the 4sre engine the same as a Chrysler T2 engine (the pistons and rods fit) since you seem to be doing the same with the 420a and 4dre
Anyways sorry for hijacking your thread autot.... IMO a 4G63T is an nice engine stock, it can be turned into a killer engine with the right amount of money. The 420a engine is okay stock (less than 4G63T), but can also be turned into a killer engine with the right turbo and money.. |
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| curtis_rak |
The Hahn Neon (fastest in the world), according to their site has a 420a.
f@ck it. Im out. |
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| 4G63PWR |
A 420a powered Talon that is turbocharged at 5-9psi would be at its max output with the stock internals. Put lower compression pistons in and the hp will drop without turning up the boost, leaving it with less hp than a stock TSi.
My .02cents. |
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| Anonymoose |
Well my 96 Neon Sport Coupe with a low comp headgasket shim and between 8-9 psi of boost made 188whp. A 98 Talon TSI AWD (since it was used in a previous example) is rated at 210 bhp. Going through the AWD you'll be lucky to be making 175 at the wheels.
And since we're also bench racing here we may as well talk about curb weight. A Neon Sport Coupe weighs in at 2480 lbs, lets say 2515 lbs with a turbo added. A 98 Talon TSI AWD comes in at 3153 lbs (numbers taken from www.carpoint.com). |
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| prophet_ca |
quote:
Originally posted by 4G63PWR
A 420a powered Talon that is turbocharged at 5-9psi would be at its max output with the stock internals._ Put lower compression pistons in and the hp will drop without turning up the boost, leaving it with less hp than a stock TSi.
My .02cents.
I don't know about a 420a Talon, but a 4dre with stock internals, right turbo and boost can make 250whp before things start to go haywire.. Here is a dyno of a 4dre with low boost 9 psi and stock internals, it is a daily driver
Im just trying to make the point that you don't need 4G63T to make good power on stock internals... A 420a which is similar to a 4dre can net great power with stock internals... Anonymoose's car is a good example of what the 4dre and 420a can give you.. |
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| Keith303 |
stock 1g fwd dsms are 195 hp flywheel, and around 165-170 at the wheels
awds are ofcourse going to be less whp because of the loss throught the drivetrain, prolly closer to 160hp
2gs are rated at 210, basically because they have higher stock boost, around 13 psi compared to 1g's with 9-11psi.
1gs have bigger throttlebody,manifold,a BOV that doesnt leak also a larger turbo that is capable of producing upto 16-17 psi on stock internals safely, whereas the 2gs have a T25 turbo, which is smaller but is used more to its potential from the factory.
when it comes down to it a propperly tuned 1g that is mostly stock should be able to beat a neon running 9 psi |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymoose
Well my 96 Neon Sport Coupe with a low comp headgasket shim and between 8-9 psi of boost made 188whp. A 98 Talon TSI AWD (since it was used in a previous example) is rated at 210 bhp. Going through the AWD you'll be lucky to be making 175 at the wheels.
And since we're also bench racing here we may as well talk about curb weight. A Neon Sport Coupe weighs in at 2480 lbs, lets say 2515 lbs with a turbo added. A 98 Talon TSI AWD comes in at 3153 lbs (numbers taken from www.carpoint.com).
I am guessing you got these #'s off of a Dynojet. They seem a little optomistic for real world Wheel Horsepower #'s. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Keith303
stock 1g fwd dsms are 195 hp flywheel, and around 165-170 at the wheels
awds are ofcourse going to be less whp because of the loss throught the drivetrain, prolly closer to 160hp
2gs are rated at 210, basically because they have higher stock boost, around 13 psi compared to 1g's with 9-11psi.
1gs have bigger throttlebody,manifold,a BOV that doesnt leak also a larger turbo that is capable of producing upto 16-17 psi on stock internals safely, whereas the 2gs have a T25 turbo, which is smaller but is used more to its potential from the factory.
when it comes down to it a propperly tuned 1g that is mostly stock should be able to beat a neon running 9 psi
Again, I feel these #'s are optimistic.
I would venture to guess that a reliably maintained DSM that is putting down a true 195 @ the crank would put out 156 FWHP and 137 AWHP.
We will find out about FWHP, My dyno whore Talon will be up and running in a couple weeks. |
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| Adam @ Apex |
quote:
I am guessing you got these #'s off of a Dynojet. They seem a little optomistic for real world Wheel Horsepower #'s.
Yup, off of our dyno. Why are they optimistic.....are they that hard to believe.
;)
Adam |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam @ Apex
quote:
I am guessing you got these #'s off of a Dynojet. They seem a little optomistic for real world Wheel Horsepower #'s.
Yup, off of our dyno. Why are they optimistic.....are they that hard to believe.
;)
Adam
They just are not realistic, the drivetrain loss is greater than those #'s reflect. |
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| Anonymoose |
| What proof is there for that these numbers are incorrect? There is no way to assume a crank horsepower on a vehicle that is not factory turbocharged. These numbers show what they show. I have a before and after dyno sheets showing that I gained 65 hp from the turbo at this boost level regardless of "drivetrain loss". |
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| Adam @ Apex |
Explain why actual real life numbers arent realistic...these are not made up, they are real.
something that actually happened is fact....It cant be "not realistic."
Regardless of the drivetrain loss the car made close to 190 whp. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymoose
What proof is there for that these numbers are incorrect? There is no way to assume a crank horsepower on a vehicle that is not factory turbocharged. These numbers show what they show. I have a before and after dyno sheets showing that I gained 65 hp from the turbo at this boost level regardless of "drivetrain loss".
I am not arguing the fact that you gained 65 WHP.
I am stating that the drivetrain loss is greater than Dynojets typically tend to show.
Dynojets tend to spit out higher WHP #'s than other dyno's. IE. Mustang. |
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