| Making Power on an H22 - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
I'm kind of contradicting myself with 18" rims and a bodykit, but I would like to create alittle more power on my lude.
Now after all the basic bolt ons ( intake, header, exhaust ), a healthy shot of laughing gas and tuning that biatch with a V-AFC, what's the next logical step?
I'd like to stay away from boost and create power by upping the compression of my engine.
Recommendations? |
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| WeDgE |
I think the comp. ratio on the H22 is at 11:1 which is already pretty high, any higher and you might not be able to run on pump gas.
Forged pistons/rods, Ti valve springs and retainers, cams, p&p, bored TB, dyno tuning, bigger shot of nitrous...etc... |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
Thanx for the input.
The USDM H22 has a 10.0 : 1 compression ratio.
The JDM H22 Type S motor has an 11.0 : 1 compression ratio. |
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| WeDgE |
No prob.
I'm guessing that you have the USDM H22...then certainly you can bump up the comp. ratio a point or so. Just curious, but why stay away from boost??? |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
quote:
Originally posted by WeDgE
No prob.
I'm guessing that you have the USDM H22...then certainly you can bump up the comp. ratio a point or so. Just curious, but why stay away from boost???
Yeah, I do have a USDM H22.
Why stay away from boost? I guess I belive if your motor wasn't turbo charged from the factory, there's prob a reason why. H22's aren't noted for having the strongest internals and don't respond to boost the way other Honda engines do.
I don't see the point of dropping big coin on a turbo and running 8 psi either. To reach higher boost levels and maintain realiablitity, your talking about big bucks <---- now that being said, making big power NA is prob the most expensive route. |
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| WeDgE |
Either way (NA or boost) you'd still have to build the engine (pistons, rods, etc.)...I guess I'm just a fan of boost... :)
Good luck in your build-up! |
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| IH8V8S |
You may want to IM Duane (Preylewd Power?). He probably has the craziest H22 around. He's running all motor with 13:1 compression and stg. 2 cams etc. See what he says. Just a thought.
Krazy Karl :beer: |
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| midnite |
what i would do first is improve the airflow to and from engine:
intake.
header.
exhaust.
perhaps intake manifold/throttle body. not sure how well stock ones flow.
then get more air/fuel into the cylinders:
bigger cams.
maybe port and polish head.
i don't know if larger injectors are needed.
may as well install new valve springs while head is apart and raise redline slightly.
adjust air/fuel ratio with VAFC, lower vtec engagement. |
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| TheWask |
| Anybody make a race header for the H22? A regular header is just a waste of money. |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWask
Anybody make a race header for the H22? A regular header is just a waste of money.
I'm alittle unsure as to what the difference between a race and regular header are??
I had a GReddy header on the last lude and will have one again on this lude. |
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| midnite |
racing header has longer primaries/secondaries, and replaces the CAT, usually connecting directly into cat-back exhaust system.
greater gains than a regular header because if it's length.
on RSX, regular header is about 2-3whp, race header gives ~15whp. short header on prelude probably gives more gains tho because it's much longer stock (exhaust is on front of h22a, on k20a it's rear). |
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| Xx D-MAN xX |
Sunil, it all depends of what your goal is, what route you want to take, and how much money you are willing to spend.
If you are trying to reach the 150whp or 400whp mark, it makes a big difference in the things you will need to do to reach that goal.
In my opinion, whatever route you take, you will end up rebuilding your engine. |
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| GTS Jeff |
to compensate for the 18" rims and to be as fast as stock, u should get:
i/h/e then tune with piggyback. stock tuning on h22 is really conservative. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS
I'm kind of contradicting myself with 18" rims and a bodykit, but I would like to create alittle more power on my lude.
Now after all the basic bolt ons ( intake, header, exhaust ), a healthy shot of laughing gas and tuning that biatch with a V-AFC, what's the next logical step?
I'd like to stay away from boost and create power by upping the compression of my engine.
Recommendations?
"This is the doctors office phoning, your black 96 Prelude has an appointment @ 10031-167 St. at your earliest convenience. Symptoms appear to be lack of power and a desire to destroy the competition. Call 443-3575 to confirm your appointment.":p |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
"This is the doctors office phoning, your black 96 Prelude has an appointment @ 10031-167 St. at your earliest convenience. Symptoms appear to be lack of power and a desire to destroy the competition. Call 443-3575 to confirm your appointment.":p
Haha, that's funny. But you know which shop I'll take it too should I proceed past all the bolt ons. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWask
Anybody make a race header for the H22? A regular header is just a waste of money.
one of the top 10 dumbest comments i've ever heard. |
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| silverTEG |
if you already have basic bolt on's and a v-afc , i would suggest some cams and cam gears before you dyno tune. and a hi-flow cat if you dont have one.
and decide where you want your powerband to be, with a h22 on N20 i would think you would want to tune for an upper rpm powerband, so a short ram intake and a 4-1 header or a 4-2-1 hybrid with a 2.5" collector, 2.5" cat and 2.5" exhaust would be your best bet. |
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| TheWask |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
one of the top 10 dumbest comments i've ever heard.
You haven't heard many dumb comments have you? Spending $800 for 5whp is a waste od money, when for not much more you could get a race header. A regular cheap header will add 5whp to my car, a race header will add 15whp. YOu tell me what the better buy is. |
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| ManHunter |
98luder also runs a N/A setup.
MH |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWask
You haven't heard many dumb comments have you? Spending $800 for 5whp is a waste od money, when for not much more you could get a race header. A regular cheap header will add 5whp to my car, a race header will add 15whp. YOu tell me what the better buy is.
I know on a forced induction application, every thing and everybody worth their salt I have talked to is of the opinion that primary tube length needs to exceed 28" in order to "tune" the header for a specific RPM range. I will look into the desired specs for a NA application, i suspect "ideal" primary tube length will be reduced.:confused: |
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| speedtech |
quote:
Originally posted by SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS
I'm kind of contradicting myself with 18" rims and a bodykit, but I would like to create alittle more power on my lude.
Now after all the basic bolt ons ( intake, header, exhaust ), a healthy shot of laughing gas and tuning that biatch with a V-AFC, what's the next logical step?
I'd like to stay away from boost and create power by upping the compression of my engine.
Recommendations?
I would recommend to get rid of the V-AFC and to run hondata instead. On a 2000 Prelude with an Injen CAI and an Apexi exhuast we made 15whp just by adding and tuning the hondata alone. I would also suggest Skunk2 Stage 1 cams if you didn't want to build up the head. But if you are willing to do build the head then i would suggest the Skunk2 Stage 2 cams and their cam gears, valve springs and retainers. The stage 1's made 11whp but the stage 2's we have not tried yet.
Basically there nothing left to do unless you start to get into the intenals of the motor. We are actually going to be building an N/A H22 motor for a customer from regina and here is his current build:
JDM Type-S Pistons (Standard Size)
Skunk2 Stage 1 Cams
Skunk2 High Comp. Valves
Skunk2 Valve Springs
Skunk2 Retainers
Skunk2 Intake Manifold
Hondata S200
Hondata Intake Manifold Gasket
Fidanza Flywheel
ACT Clutch Kit
Quaife LSD
We are still deciding on header but still doing some research. I am trying to push into higher comp pistons, but the only downside to that is you must resleeve the block. But yeah that's my recommendation. |
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| drastik |
| go light flywheel .... weeeee! |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
Speedtech: I was checking out your website as you are an affiliated EPC vendor, and I'm diggin' your price on that H22 Skunk2 intake manifold.
You might hear from me later in the year. :bthumbup: |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by TheWask
You haven't heard many dumb comments have you? Spending $800 for 5whp is a waste od money, when for not much more you could get a race header. A regular cheap header will add 5whp to my car, a race header will add 15whp. YOu tell me what the better buy is.
explain to me what this "race" header is ?
and no header on its own will add 8hp without doing a full exhaust system (i/h/c/e).
and yeah spending $800 on just a header is stupid. especially if you dont design you whole exhaust system first, what your hp goals areand to know where you want your powerband.
if you want to spend the money, i'd say the best header on the market is hytech. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS
Speedtech: I was checking out your website as you are an affiliated EPC vendor, and I'm diggin' your price on that H22 Skunk2 intake manifold.
You might hear from me later in the year. :bthumbup:
do your research on IM's aswell, cuz it will shift your powerband quite genorously. im in the middle of deciding whether its a good idea for me or not. |
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| TheWask |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
explain to me what this "race" header is ?
and no header on its own will add 8hp without doing a full exhaust system (i/h/c/e).
if you want to spend the money, i'd say the best header on the market is hytech.
]
The Hytech header is a race header. A race header eliminates the cat. Its also built differently then a normal 4-2-1 header. Im sure someone here with greater knowledge of headers can explain the differences. The hytech is a great piece but it is very expensive. Look into a JR or Comptech race header, both do wonders for the K20A2
http://forums.clubrsx.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=1361632
This dyno is from a K20A2 with a CAI/exhaust/Race header/Hondate #4 and 18's
Stock they dyno anywhere from 165-170whp. |
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| crx_86dx |
| what about some cams and cam gears |
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| nismoracing |
| throttle body , ECU , lighter flywheel |
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| Spoolin MX6 |
| I take it you can't stay away from the fun factor, hey Sunil??? Glad to heat that its not gonna end up being a show car. |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
quote:
Originally posted by Spoolin MX6
I take it you can't stay away from the fun factor, hey Sunil??? Glad to heat that its not gonna end up being a show car.
We'll try and find a happy medium. How did that exhaust finally turn out? |
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| Spoolin MX6 |
| well, it all ready to go on the car, but there is alot of work left to be done on the car before it actually goes on. That crushed z pipe, is now a downpipe for my turbo, the pinched part that came right off the muffler, that is now straight, without any problems. The only part I can't really fix is the dent in the bottom of the tip, but I am not worried about that. :) Other than that, it will all work out good |
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| rage2 |
quote:
Originally posted by SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS
Why stay away from boost? I guess I belive if your motor wasn't turbo charged from the factory, there's prob a reason why. H22's aren't noted for having the strongest internals and don't respond to boost the way other Honda engines do.
I don't see the point of dropping big coin on a turbo and running 8 psi either. To reach higher boost levels and maintain realiablitity, your talking about big bucks <---- now that being said, making big power NA is prob the most expensive route.
The key to boosting a H22 is tuning, and not to be too greedy. buh_buh's car runs 8psi, makes 260whp on a mustang dyno (that's about 290-300whp on a dynojet), only uses pump gas, and is super reliable. After tons of drag runs, several full days of lapping, and a year of daily driving, it burns zero oil, better shape than older stock H22's. The weak point with the H22's are the piston ringlands, if you tune it so there's ZERO detonation, the stock motor is capable of 300whp daily driven reliability. It's not the power that kills the ring lands, it's the detonation due to too much boost, or poor tuning.
IMO turbo is the best bang for the buck and reliable power upgrade for the H22. More NA power means higher revs, guaranteed that you'll need a rebuild after 1 season at the track at 9000rpm's :). |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by rage2
makes 260whp on a mustang dyno (that's about 290-300whp on a dynojet)
How can the two types of dynos be off by over 10% from each other? Is the Mustang too low, or the Dynojet too high, and who's to even say for sure?
Among various car circles, a certain % of drivetrain loss seems to be generally accepted by peers for that specific type of car. From what I've seen, the Dynojet #'s usually corroborate the approx. drivetrain loss estimates in many circles.
*shrug* |
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| rage2 |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
How can the two types of dynos be off by over 10% from each other? Is the Mustang too low, or the Dynojet too high, and who's to even say for sure?
Nothing's too low, and nothings too high. You shouldn't really compare dyno numbers between 2 different dynos. You should compare your gains from baseline on the SAME dyno.
I've dyno'd tons of cars on both dynos. For example, on my 944 on pump gas, I pulled 340whp on dynojet, and 290whp on Mustang.
Mustang dynos on average reads 10% lower than dynojet. A prelude makes 145whp on a mustang dyno bone stock, which is a 28% loss compared to flywheel. On a dynojet, the loss is closer to the 15-20% range.
Dynojet's the most accepted number out there, probably because it's higher. I always do a final dynojet run for bragging purposes hehe. For tuning though, you can't beat a mustang dyno with it's extensive load based options. I've mapped an entire supercharged M3 fuel and timing map (even part throttle) on a mustang dyno within an hour.
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| HKSpowers |
Hey Sunil this is my plans for this summer, i'm looking at getting Crower Cam Shaft with cams, and titanium valve springs, and a Hondata ecu, i've read you dont need a Vafc if your running Hondata.
Well see whos H22's badder at the track this year, yours or DMI's :bthumbup: |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
Sounds like warring words to me.
Let's play ball. :beer: |
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| CanadianSkyline |
| If you dont want to go the induction route, i dont think re-doing the "breathing" on your engine is worth while. I would start thinking about higher compression pistons, underdrive pulleys, cams, and cam gears if it were me and i didnt want to go to boost. Just for an idea, you could run a jackson racing super charger at very little boost on stock internals and you would be fine (5 to 8 PSI). That would put you over 200 whp. That would open the door to fmic, and low compression pistons which allows you to put a new pulley on there for more boost. The superchargers are a nice way to get more power with a bit better drivability than turbos, i think the reliability would be somewhere the same as a turbo, except with the super charger you dont need the manifold and all that stuff, something to look into anyway. Chris. |
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| buh_buh |
| I wouldnt waste my money on internals if your only going to be making ~200whp. If you want to put in forged pistons in a H22 your going to have to resleeve the block (either at a local machine shop or ship it down to the states) which will cost big bucks. Also there is no FMIC kit out for the H22 JRSC. A couple people have fabbed up their own, but there have been no actual gains seen on the dyno. In fact a supercharger setup will cost more than a turbo setup, so the "manifold and stuff" isn't really a big issue. |
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| CanadianSkyline |
| Im just speaking from my perspective, i looked into a turbo kit and a supercharger kit, the supercharger kit came out cheaper. |
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| buh_buh |
| wow you priced out both and the JRSC was cheaper?? The most expensive turbo kit out for the Prelude to my knowledge is the Greddy kit, and even that is substantially cheaper than a JRSC. I'm very surprised. Which turbo kits were you looking at? |
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| CanadianSkyline |
| I was getting a very good deal on the jackson racing s/c and they couldnt do the same deal for the greddy kits. |
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| buh_buh |
IMO the Greddy kit is pretty weak.
In fact it is the most expensive, but lowest rated hp out of all the kits out there. I think the main reason its the most expensive kit out there is because it is CARB approved.... which means jack here since we have no emissions.
Did you end up getting the JRSC? I wasn't aware JR made a supercharger kit for H23s (I'm assuming you have a H23 since its a 92) |
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| CanadianSkyline |
| No, i was just kind of looking into it, i never really wanted to put a lot of money into my prelude, because i've always been planning on getting a rwd nissan of some sort, the shop i was at told me that the H22 kit would work on the H23 with minor mods, i never really got past the talking about it stage, so maybe if they would have seen money, prices would have gotten lower on turbo kits. |
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