| Steroids... - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| S2000_rider |
Yes, it's a touchy subject but I've heard from various physicians and professional bodybuilders that state if taken responsibley, it isn't as bad people say.
My question is once I've platued in size and strength AFTER using all other muscle building products you can buy at your local GNC and various excerises, can donig 1 cycle cause any permenant/serious damage?
When the time comes, I was thinking of doing a stacked cycle with Winstrol and Deca. A friend did this combonition and put on about 17 lbs of lean, LEAN muscle in about 2 months. He kept around 12 lbs of it.
Suggestions? |
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| VerbotenZ34 |
Was that five pound loss from nut shrinkage? :lol:
Just kidding!
Verboten |
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| Z3r03rr0r |
| IMO still a bad idea, heck I think you would be better off doing it all natural skip all the stuff from GNC and just work your butt off instead. You may not get to be a 300lb monster but your results will be more beneficial |
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| Insomniac |
I have a couple friends that juiced.
The good:
-it works... my one friend put on about 26 lbs in one month (if you think that's a good thing)
The bad:
-Dealers r shady
-contradictory information about the shit
-it's NOT cheap
-acne
-stretch marks
-water retention
I find that the people who juice are often an out for lazy unmotivated people looking for an easy out.
I suggest you look in the mirror and evaluate how you've been training.
I hope that helps, it's not my area of expertise and like most, my information is all heresay. |
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| S2000_rider |
| Lazy? If you've been working out for 2 weeks and then juice...yes, that is lazy. If you're trying to gain that extra bit of muscle mass and exhausted all other natural resources, I don't see how 1 cycle could hurt you in the long run...??? |
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| Lococoin |
i think anything in moderation is ok, take alchohol for example, it is a poison yet we choose to ingest it. i dont see how steroids are any different, i think there probably better then alchohol its just they arent socially accepted.
curious but how long is the cycle your planning on doing? |
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| Praylewd powr |
I would suggest you take a hard look at your training regime. I thought about this subject two years ago. At that point I was training for 5 years and seemed to plateau. I did a very honest self-appraisal and changed work out partners and have seen a natural gain of about 15-20 lbs lean mass in 2 years. I did so naturally (loose term) using only protein supplements and creatine cycles.
Think about what your reasons are. If you train smart and follow a regimented diet (all the time), you can overcome any plateau. If you want to compete, and have sized up your competition, and need the edge....go for it...but do so safely. In the end, it is up to you if you want to do it...don't listen to other people. Just remember that any shortcuts usually have long term consequences....and short term also-----acne, backne...need i say more? |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
I can remember reading once that steroid use can become addicting, where a lot of people tell themselves they'll only use steroids for a season or a school year, but doesn't work that way
Once users stop taking steroids, they're at risk of developing irritability, paranoia, and severe depression making them want to take it more; addiction.
But other side effects, more obvious ones then those mentioned, and worse imo.... for men specifically:
testicular shrinkage
pain when peeing
breast development
impotence
sterility
baldness
These are more severe and with limited use, less like problems, BUT, do you know your family history before you start to mess around with a drug that may instigate this?
High blood presure,
liver damage,
kidney probs
heart conditions and cardiovascular disease |
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| quadraphonic |
You have to understand the long-term implications of steroidal injections. Certainly the immediate effective (or anticipated immediate effect) is muscle gain, but tissue breakdown is still a risk.
Cortisone (a steroid) is used rehabilitatively to alleviate joint swelling/inflammation.
When some receives a cortisone injection, they are contraindicated from physical activity for anywhere from 4 days to 2 weeks because their tissue is weakened and highly susceptible to damage.
'Roids' aren't controlled well enough. I'd be quite nervous using them.
Accept your body's limitations, the risk isn't worth it. |
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| S2000_rider |
Thanks for all the input. With respect to doing a strictly 1 time cycle...Aside from the temporary acne and temper, is it safe to say the chance of any permenant damage is next to nil?
Thanks, |
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| Flex |
If you want to use them read all you can about them first so you can make an educated discison. Knowledge is power.......don't just take someones word for it just because they have used them before. Know what you are getting yourself into.
Any drug can be harmful if abused......to many aspirins are harmful. So if you choose to use them use them smart don't abuse them.
And there are much harder things out there people use everyday and don't think twice about it.....but the media has hyped up how bad steroids are so any mention of them is "ohhhhh those will kill you" A doctor will perscribe testosterone to a patient that has had a sex change (women to man) and give them way more then any athelete would ever use and that is fine.....but mention them for muscle enhancement and whoa look out.....your crazy. Also doctors will perscribe corticosteroids like they were pez......and they are much more harmful on your body then anabolic steroids.
So what ever you choose make an educated choice. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by S2000_rider
Yes, it's a touchy subject but I've heard from various physicians and professional bodybuilders that state if taken responsibley, it isn't as bad people say.
My question is once I've platued in size and strength AFTER using all other muscle building products you can buy at your local GNC and various excerises, can donig 1 cycle cause any permenant/serious damage?
When the time comes, I was thinking of doing a stacked cycle with Winstrol and Deca. A friend did this combonition and put on about 17 lbs of lean, LEAN muscle in about 2 months. He kept around 12 lbs of it.
Suggestions?
The people who have success are the people that do the research and stack them properly. It's not like you just shot up with one thing, and that's that. You have a post-cycle stack and everything.
So I'd say yes they can be good when used properly. Which is about 0.000000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.
My opinion - unless you plan to compete why would you do steroids? |
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| JustinL |
I think we should clarify the definition of a steroid. A steroid is a hormone that is based on the chemical cholesterol. This is a whole family of hormones not just the ones that make you bigger.
Anabolic steroids are what are used to make you bigger... as opposed to say the steroids in inhalers to help with asthma.
Justin |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
My opinion - unless you plan to compete why would you do steroids?
I agree totally with that statement.
Plus, I think we are all under the assumption that we are refering to anabolic steroids here, it's inherently obvious I think ?? :dunno: |
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| JustinL |
I only put that in because people were talking about doctors throwing around corticosteroids and someone mentioned cortisone.
It's important to recognize the difference even though we are indeed talking about anabolic or androgenic steroids. Doctors don't throw these around. |
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| Flex |
| I was the one that said that statement.....and I know the difference between them. If you read my whole statement I said that they throw around corticosteroids which are harder on your body then anabolic steroids. |
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| JustinL |
| Yeah, I noticed. I misread your statement the first time. My bad. |
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| quadraphonic |
| They're just a bad idea, period. |
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| lovemytrx |
| A better idea would be to reexamine your training and diet. Steroids are a crutch and a way to cheat. If you can't get there on your God given ability and intelligence the price you will have to pay is to high. MHO. Dude I started out at 18 yrs olds 5'11" and 125# in high school. I now weigh 210+. Not as lean as I want to be but not pudgy either. There's a lot of satisfaction you get from knowing you did it without drugs. I have my health and the knowledge that I am and always will be clean. I've been tempted to do a cycle but what for. I have no competitive aspirations and there are probably less than a 100 bodybuilders world wide who are making big money from bodybuilding. I've thought about it over and over and the only reason I can see for doing steroids is ego. |
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| Flex |
One thing I love to hear is people saying they are "clean" or "natural" because they havent used steroids. IMO if you have put anything into your body other then food.....eg. creatine, tribulus or any other supplement.....you are not natural or clean either. Those products aren't natural in your body in the doses taking so how can you be considered natural. And they can also do as much damage to your body as any steroid can.
(Im not for or against steroid use....Im pro choice if the choice is made from knowledge) |
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| high school |
| flex ur a genious:bthumbup: |
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| lovemytrx |
| So let me be an ass for a moment. So are you saying Creatine can turn my testicles into raisins, cause premature hair loss, acne and other health problems. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by lovemytrx
So let me be an ass for a moment. So are you saying Creatine can turn my testicles into raisins, cause premature hair loss, acne and other health problems.
Of course he's not - creatine is something that is found naturally (Albeit in much smaller quantities) and is used to super-hydrate
the muscle cells.
What he's saying, is that his definition of "clean" and "natural" means that you aren't using supplements that you would not get through a normal diet.
Everyone has a different definition of "clean"/"natural" - especially now with all the PH's out. |
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| Flex |
Creatine is in the body but not in the dosages no where near what people use as a supplement. It can cause other problems not the ones stated.
I had a friend taking Boron, he was taking the recomended dosage on the bottle. He went to his doctor and got some blood tests done. The doctor asked him what kind of drigs he was on (meaning a narcotic) casue all his levels where way out of way. They chatted for a while and it came out it was probably the Boron. So my buddy stopped taking it and went back a month later and his levels where returning to normal. The doctor told him if he would have kept that up for a long period of time he could have had some serious health issues. |
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| gsxr600 |
ok wait, i didnt read all of this but deca and winstrol?
what the hell is that
both are low aromatizing compounds, but you need an androgen in there if you plan on doing something. Try some test enanthate.
if your trying to bulk longer acting ester like an enth or phynhl prop will do you best. if your cutting shorter acting esters like winstrol or prop is a good bet.
This is all hypothetical of course, but dont be stupid and do winstrol and deca at the same time, i'm sorry but whoever told you that is a fucking moron. fist deca aids in packing on size because (lots of water) to counter act that , its main purpose, is rediculous unless your a bodybuilder looking to stay lean looking all the time. winstrol i sbest used to kick start cycles its highly liver toxic because its a 17 AA drug, it is methylnated but upon first pass of the live it can still do damage, dont stay on longer than 6 weeks.
and i've seriously doubt you've exhausted your natural abilities train and learn to diet before resulting to steroids, if you dont have a good base your fucked. if your still shopping at GNC your definately FUCKED>
you might want to think about anti estrogens too, i bet whoever you talked to about this steroid use neglected to mention that as well. |
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| gsxr600 |
quote:
Originally posted by Flex
Creatine is in the body but not in the dosages no where near what people use as a supplement. It can cause other problems not the ones stated.
I had a friend taking Boron, he was taking the recomended dosage on the bottle. He went to his doctor and got some blood tests done. The doctor asked him what kind of drigs he was on (meaning a narcotic) casue all his levels where way out of way. They chatted for a while and it came out it was probably the Boron. So my buddy stopped taking it and went back a month later and his levels where returning to normal. The doctor told him if he would have kept that up for a long period of time he could have had some serious health issues.
Bullshit. post his liver values and kidney values. His values returned to normal after a month hey, wow thats quite the liver antioxident, what type did the doc prescrive him. all his shit was out of wack but no jaundice no other symptoms, give me a break.
Go to pub med and look up anything regarding creatine if you find any liver damage or any elevated values i'll fucking pump some synthol into my dick.
Elevated levels of creatine dont do shit, there is no evidence to prove that they elevate liver or kidney damage and infact i believe its know to lower cholesterol levels.
but hey what the fuck do i know right? |
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| quadraphonic |
quote:
Originally posted by gsxr600
Bullshit. post his liver values and kidney values. His values returned to normal after a month hey, wow thats quite the liver antioxident, what type did the doc prescrive him. all his shit was out of wack but no jaundice no other symptoms, give me a break.
Go to pub med and look up anything regarding creatine if you find any liver damage or any elevated values i'll fucking pump some synthol into my dick.
Elevated levels of creatine dont do shit, there is no evidence to prove that they elevate liver or kidney damage and infact i believe its know to lower cholesterol levels.
but hey what the fuck do i know right?
I haven't heard a lot of negatives OR positives to creatine usage. Studies on it's benefits usually demonstrate mixed results as well. I've seen some suggestions that it can cause hair loss, but really, anything excess and unutilized in the body is processed out. If anything, it'll push the kidneys a little more, and possibly throw off electrolytes slightly with altered hydration levels in the body.
Furthermore, it's really only useful to train the ATP-CP system (that's the energy system that muscles use for quick, explosive contractions i.e, take-off for the 100m, swing a bat in baseball, etc.). People take it because in theory it's supposed to cause your body to regain energy levels faster, and therefore would allows you to maintain set intensity at a higher rate.
With respect to weight training, I think it's a waste of money though.. mass gains are generally the result of water retention. |
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| gsxr600 |
quote:
Originally posted by quadraphonic
I haven't heard a lot of negatives OR positives to creatine usage. Studies on it's benefits usually demonstrate mixed results as well. I've seen some suggestions that it can cause hair loss, but really, anything excess and unutilized in the body is processed out. If anything, it'll push the kidneys a little more, and possibly throw off electrolytes slightly with altered hydration levels in the body.
Furthermore, it's really only useful to train the ATP-CP system (that's the energy system that muscles use for quick, explosive contractions i.e, take-off for the 100m, swing a bat in baseball, etc.). People take it because in theory it's supposed to cause your body to regain energy levels faster, and therefore would allows you to maintain set intensity at a higher rate.
With respect to weight training, I think it's a waste of money though.. mass gains are generally the result of water retention.
sorry if i seem like an asshole in what follows but i take it personally(especially since i make my lively hood training pro level athletes / bodybuilders ), when people call others cheaters because they use creatine, or place themselves on a holly grail because they dont use steroids and the other guy does. Give me a fucking break.
Creatine is Definately not a waste of money IMHO. the water retention does aid in strength, but what are your strength training for? if not to gain strength.
Here's something to think about, if creatine (even if used when dieting, like i'm using it now for dieting, oops i must be a cheater :rolleyes: ) increases anarobic capacity like you said by effecting ATP-CP systems then, that means that it would increase the amount of worload performed, which translates into more of a caloric output. hey thats a bonus. :D
sure its not a necessity before protein and food in general but its so cheap and its effective. I have seen a study were people used creainte from 9 weeks up to 5 years with no adverse side effects. that being said creatine isnt for everyone, but here is some little articles i just pulled out of the air...if anyone is intrested.
This one is related to glucose and oxidization. i'll just post the abstracts. enjoy :D
The second is about muscle hypertrophy (muscles getting bigger) and IGF (growth factors, growth hormone).
York University.
Recent observations have suggested that creatine supplementation might have a beneficial effect on glucoregulation in skeletal muscle. However, conclusive studies on the direct effects of creatine on glucose uptake and metabolism are lacking. The objective of this study was to investigate the effects of creatine supplementation on basal and insulin-stimulated GLUT4 translocation, glucose uptake, glycogen content, glycogen synthesis, lactate production, glucose oxidation, and AMPK phosphorylation in L6 rat skeletal muscle cells. Four treatment groups were studied: control, insulin (100 nM), creatine (0.5 mM), and creatine + insulin. After 48h of creatine supplementation the creatine and phosphocreatine contents of L6 myoblasts increased by ~9.3- and ~5.1-fold, respectively, however, the ATP content of the cells was not affected. Insulin significantly increased 2-DG uptake (~1.9-fold), GLUT4 translocation (~1.8-fold), the incorporation of D-[U-14C]glucose into glycogen (~2.3-fold), lactate production (~1.5-fold), and 14CO2 production (~1.5-fold). Creatine neither altered the glycogen and GLUT4 contents of the cells nor the insulin-stimulated rates of 2-DG uptake, GLUT4 translocation, glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation. However, creatine significantly reduced by ~42% the basal rate of lactate production and increased by ~40% the basal rate of 14CO2 production. This is in agreement with the ~35% increase in citrate synthase activity and also with the ~2-fold increase in the phosphorylation of both a-1 and a-2 isoforms of AMPK after creatine supplementation. We conclude that 48h of creatine supplementation does not alter insulin-stimulated glucose uptake and glucose metabolism; however, it activates AMPK, shifts basal glucose metabolism towards oxidation and reduces lactate production in L6 rat skeletal muscle cells.
Creatine increases IGF-I and myogenic regulatory factor mRNA in C(2)C(12) cells.
Louis M, Van Beneden R, Dehoux M, Thissen JP, Francaux M.
Departement d'Education Physique et de Readaptation, Universite catholique de Louvain, Place Pierre de Coubertin 1, B-1348, Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium
Addition of creatine to the differentiation medium of C(2)C(12) cells leads to hypertrophy of the myotubes. To investigate the implication of insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and myogenic regulatory factors (MRFs) in this hypertrophy, their mRNA levels were assessed during the first 72 h of differentiation. Creatine significantly increased the IGF-I mRNA level over the whole investigated period of time, whereas the MRF mRNA levels were only augmented at precise moments, suggesting a general activation mechanism for IGF-I and a specifically regulated mechanism for MRF transcription. Our results suggest therefore that creatine-induced hypertrophy of C(2)C(12) cells is at least partially mediated by overexpression of IGF-I and MRFs. |
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| quadraphonic |
It doesn't increase capacity so much as it increases recovery times.. look at it this way.
w/o creatine - after 1 min rest, 85% energy capacity.
w/ creatine - after 1 min rest, 92% energy capacity
I'm just making up numbers.. here, but that's the point I trying to get across.
Now like I said, that's the theory. And for every study you can find to support creatine usage, you can find one to discredit it.
Sorry if it sounded like I thought creatine users were cheaters.. I have no problem with some supplements (protein, creatine)..
I think when it comes down to it, creatine is all water retention and placebo. But, if that gets you where you need to go.. give 'er! |
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| gsxr600 |
I dont know how i went off on a tangent about creatine in a steroid thread, but make sure your mentally prepared to handle steroids.
This is all hypothetical of course and a diary of a dream i once had:
personally I have seen many that are addicted to steroids, i'm not joking either. Dont get me wrong they train their ass 'off in the gym, but once they see they cant handle the same weight as they could when they were doing more than a gram of androgens a week, it can get a bit depressing. make sure you know about coming off of steroids too, and anti estrogens (its the most important part of the cycle, thats where youre gains are made or lost)
you should also be responsible when using it, when i'm on cycle i let me doctor know and he monitors all my liver values and kidney values as well.
i'd also say that steroids should only be used when dieting as a muscle sparing compound, if you cant bulk naturally, then you may have no business doing steroids (unless of course youhave low testosterone levels, or are going to make millions signing a deal with the IFBB or something)
as for dealers, there are alot of shady ones out there, infact 2 yearss ago in vancouver some guys were selling car soap off as steroids, and as a result alot of people got sick.
There are also alot of fake human grade gear going around, but being in canada there really isnt a need to buy human grade as its expensive shit.
most of the underground steroids out right now are of very good quality and there is alot of competition in canada, off the top of my head i can think of 7 under ground labs that make very reputable product.
and in closing i'm not a doctor and most of what i said was just puffery. |
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| gsxr600 |
quote:
Originally posted by quadraphonic
It doesn't increase capacity so much as it increases recovery times.. look at it this way.
w/o creatine - after 1 min rest, 85% energy capacity.
w/ creatine - after 1 min rest, 92% energy capacity
I'm just making up numbers.. here, but that's the point I trying to get across.
Now like I said, that's the theory. And for every study you can find to support creatine usage, you can find one to discredit it.
Sorry if it sounded like I thought creatine users were cheaters.. I have no problem with some supplements (protein, creatine)..
I think when it comes down to it, creatine is all water retention and placebo. But, if that gets you where you need to go.. give 'er!
yeah i wasnt refering to you as calling people cheaters, but anyway i know what your saying and its true, but the numbers speak for them selves if you have more energy, and you can increase workload (by adding more weights or one more rep) then you are infact contributing to hypertrophy.
But i cant infact cant find any studies discrediting creatine, and trust me i've been searching for a long time. But if you can find negative ones i'd loved to read it. |
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| quadraphonic |
Nothing negative per se, just with statistically insignifcant results..
Look for studies by Dan Syrotuik and Gordon Bell.. two excellent profs at the U of A. |
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| gsxr600 |
i searched on pubmed, didnt find anything. probably not accredditted enough to be on pubmed, i mean there only canadian and from the U of A what do they know
:p jk |
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| quadraphonic |
lol.. try sportdiscus.
Journal of Exercise Phsyiology should have some good stuff if memory serves.
Don't let the fact that they work at the U of A dissuade you!!
University of Alberta - It Makes Cents (And lots of them!) |
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| Flex |
quote:
Originally posted by gsxr600
Bullshit. post his liver values and kidney values. His values returned to normal after a month hey, wow thats quite the liver antioxident, what type did the doc prescrive him. all his shit was out of wack but no jaundice no other symptoms, give me a break.
Go to pub med and look up anything regarding creatine if you find any liver damage or any elevated values i'll fucking pump some synthol into my dick.
Elevated levels of creatine dont do shit, there is no evidence to prove that they elevate liver or kidney damage and infact i believe its know to lower cholesterol levels.
but hey what the fuck do i know right?
If you read my post......you will notice I said he was taking Boron.....not creatine......and I also said that when he went back after a month his levels where returning to normal......also i never said anything about liver problems.....Im no doctor so I dont know what levels he was meaning......but said it was causing problems in his body.
I wish people would actually read posts before replying to them
What my point is some supplements you have to watch taking as they can be harmful to your body as well........and anything you put in your body has consequences. |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
I love this:
Page 2:
quote:
Originally posted by Flex
If you read my whole statement I said ...
Page 3:
quote:
Originally posted by Flex
If you read my post......you will notice I said he was taking Boron.....not creatine...
haha :lol: people need to learn to read! |
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| gsxr600 |
yeah my bad bro.
But if everyone is getting the wrong point, then maybe its your writing.
:p
jk |
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| Flex |
quote:
Originally posted by gsxr600
yeah my bad bro.
But if everyone is getting the wrong point, then maybe its your writing.
:p
jk
I re-read how I wrote it......didn't think they were hard to understand...........:dunno:
Oh well......its all good........:bthumbup: |
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