| CB4 |
Hey there;
Im looking around for a cold air intake and not sure what would work. I have a 2000 Ford Focus ZX3 thinking about K & N Typhoon or FPIK. HELP!!!:dunno:
Thanx
Cam |
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| silverTEG |
| save the hassle and go short ram. |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
save the hassle and go short ram.
save the hassle and don't buy one for a focus....
S |
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| Adam @ Apex |
| Give us a call...485-2739 |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| Wow, with the haterism. I think either AEM or Injen would make one for the Focus, I would go with one of those. |
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| FocusTunerzx3 |
| Yea another Focus tuner...we will soon take over the world...muhahahaah. |
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| captain nismo |
quote:
Originally posted by FocusTunerzx3
Yea another Focus tuner...we will soon take over the world...muhahahaah.
ah, no...:D |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by MightyMidget
save the hassle and don't buy one for a focus....
S
This from a guy that drives a Grand Am.....:blink: |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
This from a guy that drives a Grand Am.....:blink:
it's not by choice.....but its better than a focus..... :(
S |
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| lovemytrx |
quote:
Originally posted by MightyMidget
it's not by choice.....but its better than a focus..... :(
S
How? :p |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by lovemytrx
How? :p
ummm it's NOT a focus:blink:
S |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by MightyMidget
it's not by choice.....but its better than a focus..... :(
S
explain.........
id take the focus, handsdown. |
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| CB4 |
| Any know a reasonable priced place for parts? BTW a Grand AM is something my parents drive...:thefinger hehe |
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| MightyMidget |
quote:
Originally posted by CB4
Any know a reasonable priced place for parts? BTW a Grand AM is something my parents drive...:thefinger hehe
hey sorry for jacking the thread a bit but if you are looking for K&N go to their web site and get the part number for the focus FIPK/typhoon and then call a few shops around the city to see if they have them of could get them....
click me <-----put your info in and it brings up a few typhoon kits and the FIPK
S |
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| clapbak |
.quote:
save the hassle and go short ram.
are u serious? |
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| CB4 |
| Whats the major difference between short ram and tru cold air intake? |
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| silverTEG |
| CAI just get filthy dirty, and there is not enought "power" difference to worry about that. |
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| clapbak |
Short ram is obviously in your engine bay, so it sucks up your engines heat bigtime.. i garente you wont notice a diffrence if u put a shortram on. Instead just get a good filter like k&n.. Save your money..
On the other hand cia = close to the ground therefor sucking COLD AIR ( colder the air into your engine the better!)
get cia.. and yea.. look @ the dyno tests too, CIA u get a 5-10 HP increase(appox). And shorts u get like 2-3 :P
-trev |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
Short ram is obviously in your engine bay, so it sucks up your engines heat bigtime.. i garente you wont notice a diffrence if u put a shortram on. Instead just get a good filter like k&n.. Save your money..
On the other hand cia = close to the ground therefor sucking COLD AIR ( colder the air into your engine the better!)
get cia.. and yea.. look @ the dyno tests too, CIA u get a 5-10 HP increase(appox). And shorts u get like 2-3 :P
-trev
boy you are well-versed in intakes. and those dyno charts are always accurate.
a CAI is tuned more towards mid range power, a SRI is tuned more for top-end power. the actual difference in power will never be noticed on the "butt-dyno", and will hardly show on a real dyno, especially w/o a header and exhaust. dont believe the hype, or the dyno charts.
for the difference in $$ and risk, the SRI is the better of the 2 :bthumbup: |
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| silverTEG |
here is a comparison on the same engine, SRI vs. CAI, same tube diameter.
hardly any difference up top. and a 2 peak hp diff. and you can see the mid range "AEM hump" |
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| clapbak |
call matrix.. ask n e one of them :)
see what they say..
word for word
"you wont notice a diffrence with a shortram"
Also depends on what u have done to the car too.. if im not mistaken.. |
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| clapbak |
| and.. "the risk factor" is what? Sucking up water? isnt that what bypass valves are for? |
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| JeffZ28 |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
and.. "the risk factor" is what? Sucking up water? isnt that what bypass valves are for?
jsut dont drive into a lake and you'll be fine.
I still think that unless your intake can suck in more air then your stock can suply then you should upgrade.
(ie if your stock, save your money) |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
and.. "the risk factor" is what? Sucking up water? isnt that what bypass valves are for?
a bypass valve will lose you some power |
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| clapbak |
qeustion.. whats the real diffrence between a cheap 60 doller short and a aem short.. just the filter?
thats what he should go for.. if theres nothing big.. or even goto sherwood park midas.. get this steve guy to custom make u a shortram.. then paint it red er sumthing :P |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| ok, heres my chime, first, unelss its an SVT focus, ill still take a grand am over it any day. Second. Honestly, a decent CAI will net some some decent gains compared to the WAI that most are talking about. Unless yoru car has serious issues with taking in water, all you have to worry about is cleaning your intake every year or so. I had to clean my intake after 20 000 kms and it still works fine. And yes, I do have a true CAI and I would recommend it to most. One of the most basic things in upgrading is first your intake and then your exhaust. A CAI should only run you about 200$ or so especially since you dont have to get one custom made, or if you do, by APEX, then it shouldnt run you a whole lot more than that. Id definatly recommend a better intake, especially since you do notice small gains but you also get a much better sound out of your car. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by Neo-Blue99GASE
. Second. Honestly, a decent CAI will net some some decent gains compared to the WAI that most are talking about.
knock knock, anybody home? did you read the dyno i posted, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN POWER. the only decent gains you will get is the midrange "AEM hump". |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
here is a comparison on the same engine, SRI vs. CAI, same tube diameter.
hardly any difference up top. and a 2 peak hp diff. and you can see the mid range "AEM hump"
so you dont have to scroll up. :rolleyes: |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
call matrix.. ask n e one of them :)
see what they say..
word for word
"you wont notice a diffrence with a shortram"
hmm, i guess it's true then, it must be, they said it. :rolleyes: they wouldn't be saying that because a short ram is like half the price would they?
silverTeg is right on, cai's get dirty fast and if you go through a big puddle with the throttle pinned say bye bye to your engine. and the gains are pointless, how often are you racing at 3000-4000rpm anyways? maybe in a grand am, but not in a honda.
there are hardly any gains for either short ram OR cai, don't believe the hype, you simply need a free flowing tube to put air into your engine, diameter and length matter most, don't spend $300 on a tube.
The bypass valve will lose power across the board, making the cai probably less effective the a short ram, after you've spent over double the money. Just go with a short ram. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
lolllllll
at what? your ignorance? |
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| scooby_dooby |
whatever man, let hiom buy the $350 piece of metal tube because some SALESMEN tell him to.
There's guys at bud park running 12's using freakin heating ducts as their intakes, it's just an intake, nothin magical about it.
short rams are cheaper, easier to clean, get dirty less, won't hydrolock your engine, and provide better gains in the upper rpms. And in the end it's JUST AN INTAKE.
If you think you're gonna win races cause of your sweeet intake, you have alot to learn i'd say |
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| SplineZ |
only if you drive a sweet iroc! ;)
James Z
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby
If you think you're gonna win races cause of your sweeet intake, you have alot to learn i'd say
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| CB4 |
I know I won't have a supercar just by changing the intake, but I do want best bang for buck so to speak so I don't buy something that will be a POS later on. Also any Focus ideas for exhaust?
:bthumbup: |
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| clapbak |
| please forgive me cuz i dont sit around all day reading forums .. maybe im not up on my car parts / proformance.. im sorri please forgive me.. fgt.. |
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| clapbak |
And after all, i think we are giving our opinions.. so i really wouldnt consider it ignorance.. Iv used em both.. and in my experience.. I think the cold air is better and iv noticed more out of it.. Sooo.. How can u argue that? its my opinion!
Go read up on other forums - you are gonna have the same thing - two people bitching over whats better.. its all personal prefrence.. :drama: |
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| clapbak |
quote:
If you think you're gonna win races cause of your sweeet intake, you have alot to learn i'd say
and also.. can u tell me where i said that? so shut your face read up .. and take a breathe b 4 u hit the reply button :) thanks :) :asshole: |
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| MightyMidget |
K&N FIPK!!!! i had one on my s10 extreme...very nice and worked VERY well!!!
S |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
And after all, i think we are giving our opinions.. so i really wouldnt consider it ignorance.. Iv used em both.. and in my experience.. I think the cold air is better and iv noticed more out of it.. Sooo.. How can u argue that? its my opinion!
Go read up on other forums - you are gonna have the same thing - two people bitching over whats better.. its all personal prefrence.. :drama:
i did more than give my opinion, i showed you proof. and the only thing you noticed between the 2 is noise. the butt dyno is not very accurate. shure it comes down to personal preference in the end, but that dont make one better than the other, all im saying is its pointless to spend the money on a CAI. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
and also.. can u tell me where i said that? so shut your face read up .. and take a breathe b 4 u hit the reply button :) thanks :) :asshole:
and i dont think this was aimed directly at you, i think it was more of a generalized "newb" statement. |
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| FocusTunerzx3 |
| For exhaust get the magniflow catback exhaust i hear its the best one for the Focus hands down and is the one im ordering. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
here is a comparison on the same engine, SRI vs. CAI, same tube diameter.
hardly any difference up top. and a 2 peak hp diff. and you can see the mid range "AEM hump"
Hi SilverTeg...
First excuse my ignorance I am not too familiar with Integras or some of the terminology ......
What caused the "AEM hump"? What is an AEM hump? It seems to have increased the area under the curve and I am usually looking for those kinds of gains myself?
Thanks in advance :) |
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| dogstar |
power under the curve is usable power...
id take 20hp in the midrange before id take 5 hp top end, cause you can actually use it on a daily basis, but then again, my car doesnt rev to the moon. |
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| mwdguy |
Do you want it to be pretty? or to work good. Someone already gave you the best answer if you want it to work good. Get some dryer ducting or some other NON PVC plastic pipe. If its a metal intake tube, regardless if it is a short ram style or a long one extending into the fender., it will get heat soaked and give little to no gains. A plastic one will do better and give you better gains. It may not look pretty. But what do you want to do? Look good or go fast?
IMO Go to Gregg's distributing, get some dryer ducting, and toss that filter in your fender and presto. |
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| atomic |
short ram always looks good on dyno with a fan in front and the hood open keeping the iat sensor cool during runs. CAI is the real only way to go . AEM (if u can find a good price is your best solution). i wouldn't listen to ghetto suggestions about dryer hose because it's not JUST about getting cold air, it's also about breathing easy.
the shortram breaths easy but with hood closed driving, not enough air circulates through the engine bay to keep the heat down . your MAF (measurement of airflow) determines how much fuel to use, your IAT (measurement of air temp) determines ignition timing. leaning out your mixture with a shortram but having very soft timing will loose power.
so, buy AEM CAI |
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| silverTEG |
| an intake should be chosen by your engine & package. mostly the engine. |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| I dont know why people would knock a CAI? I have one and it works great plus all you have to do is clean it twice a year if you drive 30 000 kms a year. I drive with it all the time and have driven through countless puddles and my engine behaves as if new. I dont know the what the initial intake on a focus looks like, but I can tell you for some cars its restrictive as hell. |
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| scooby_dooby |
| we're just sayin the gains you get are not worth the pricetag, a short ram will do the job and is cheaper, letting you save more money to spend on REAL mods. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by Neo-Blue99GASE
I dont know why people would knock a CAI? I have one and it works great plus all you have to do is clean it twice a year if you drive 30 000 kms a year. I drive with it all the time and have driven through countless puddles and my engine behaves as if new. I dont know the what the initial intake on a focus looks like, but I can tell you for some cars its restrictive as hell.
please read the topic i posted on intakes, CAI are a waste of money, and dont belong on some engines. |
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| kellyk75 |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
explain.........
id take the focus, handsdown.
I HATE domestic....... and I would take the Focus!!!:D |
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| atomic |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
save the hassle and go short ram.
okay serious. you shouldn't be giving advice. please read my post regarding iat sensor and ignition timing. i'm on my second rebuilt focus, amongst other cars. the fact you can screw up something so simple as an intake scares me that you feel comfortable giving advice . you would make his focus slower then the stock airbox with a shortram due to engine bay heat. |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| yea, thats the thing most people arnt getting. SIMPLY PUT COLDER AIR IS DENSER AIR AND PROVIDES MORE COMBUSTION! why the hell else do guys at the track open their hoods and let them cool down? so that they can be running at lower temps. Why else is best track condition usually at the lower temperature? because its cooler and more dense air. The only solution you might want to consider is a WAI with it being boxed off. For many, where a decent CAI isnt possible, the simply make a WAI and then box it off with anytype of material to heat it against engine bay heat. Most types of metals work well as heat sinks. |
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| lovemytrx |
| Excuse my ignorance but what is a WAI? |
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| SplineZ |
warm air intake? *shrug*
James Z |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by atomic
okay serious. you shouldn't be giving advice. please read my post regarding iat sensor and ignition timing. i'm on my second rebuilt focus, amongst other cars. the fact you can screw up something so simple as an intake scares me that you feel comfortable giving advice . you would make his focus slower then the stock airbox with a shortram due to engine bay heat.
choosing an intake is more relative to your powerband and engine setup, than anything else.
ive seen it time and time again, with dyno's to prove it.
show us some facts that prove otherwise. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by Neo-Blue99GASE
yea, thats the thing most people arnt getting. SIMPLY PUT COLDER AIR IS DENSER AIR AND PROVIDES MORE COMBUSTION! why the hell else do guys at the track open their hoods and let them cool down? so that they can be running at lower temps. Why else is best track condition usually at the lower temperature? because its cooler and more dense air. The only solution you might want to consider is a WAI with it being boxed off. For many, where a decent CAI isnt possible, the simply make a WAI and then box it off with anytype of material to heat it against engine bay heat. Most types of metals work well as heat sinks.
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/1/1_intakes.shtml
guys with CAI's open there hoods too , LOL. why wouldnt you?
i agree a SRI can suffer from heat soak, but where is there enough difference not to buy a short ram. for the xtra $200+ it doesnt make sense. if you at the track, you have plenty of time between runs to cool down and open the hood.
eg. on a typeR, with the B18c5(usdm) a cai intake on that engine is so pointless. a cai cant make power where that engine wants too. so a CAI would be a waste of money, and a waste of power potential.
my point is, for everyday driving a CAI doesnt help, nor does a SRI, at the track it wont make a difference either,most cars are reving to 7 g's now, so CAI will not make you faster down the track because if you look on a dyno you will see a gain in midrange, but it will fall off up top compared to a SRI. so who wins?
the best of both worlds was supposed to be the Comptech icebox a SRI, with a CAI mentality, but the numbers never showed any better than most intakes.
so a SRI w/ a DIY heatshield will save you 2hun, and your car will not suffer in performance up top, thats if your concerened about drag racing.
i hate hearsay, and butt dynos.
but to each there own i guess. |
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| atomic |
quote:
Originally posted by silverTEG
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/1/1_intakes.shtml
guys with CAI's open there hoods too , LOL. why wouldnt you?
i agree a SRI can suffer from heat soak, but where is there enough difference not to buy a short ram. for the xtra $200+ it doesnt make sense. if you at the track, you have plenty of time between runs to cool down and open the hood.
eg. on a typeR, with the B18c5(usdm) a cai intake on that engine is so pointless. a cai cant make power where that engine wants too. so a CAI would be a waste of money, and a waste of power potential.
my point is, for everyday driving a CAI doesnt help, nor does a SRI, at the track it wont make a difference either,most cars are reving to 7 g's now, so CAI will not make you faster down the track because if you look on a dyno you will see a gain in midrange, but it will fall off up top compared to a SRI. so who wins?
the best of both worlds was supposed to be the Comptech icebox a SRI, with a CAI mentality, but the numbers never showed any better than most intakes.
so a SRI w/ a DIY heatshield will save you 2hun, and your car will not suffer in performance up top, thats if your concerened about drag racing.
i hate hearsay, and butt dynos.
but to each there own i guess.
heat shields barely work . have you any understanding of what my initial post stated. maf=a/f, iat=ignition timing. lots of air, less fuel (great) . higher heat, poor timing. for an agressive spark you need cold air. older motors love short ram because they don't care about iat as much cause there is no control of spark. newer motors are built for longevity. anyways, it was a horrible visit and i'll never be back. ciao |
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| clapbak |
| i cant believe you are still aurging.. SHORT RAMS ARE FUCKEN USELESS!!!!:rolleyes: :blink: |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by atomic
heat shields barely work . have you any understanding of what my initial post stated. maf=a/f, iat=ignition timing. lots of air, less fuel (great) . higher heat, poor timing. for an agressive spark you need cold air. older motors love short ram because they don't care about iat as much cause there is no control of spark. newer motors are built for longevity. anyways, it was a horrible visit and i'll never be back. ciao
lol, i hear ya totally. but do you understand "powerband" ?
it also has something to do with choosing an intake.
besides an intake is useless w/o a proper exhaust. if an intake discussion is the reason for you leaving, then WOW.
thanks for stopping by though. ciao |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
i cant believe you are still aurging.. SHORT RAMS ARE FUCKEN USELESS!!!!:rolleyes: :blink:
again, the comparison dyno sheet. show us 'ol wise one where it is useless...................
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| clapbak |
| depends on the engine too.. i cant juss base your whole argument off 1 fucken dyno sheet.. some cars will get WAY better gains with cai.. |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
depends on the engine too.. i cant juss base your whole argument off 1 fucken dyno sheet.. some cars will get WAY better gains with cai..
you are correct to a point, some cars will get better gains with a CAI, but most gains will be ouside of the powerband location.
this is about intakes, not superchargers and turbos.
the point is why spend money to get a CAI, when you can expect very smilar gains, except in the midrange "aem hump". an extra 200 dollars for a minor gain in power, when you are racing your car should stay in its POWERBAND, there for the minor gain that the CAI offers in the midrange would go unused. |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| Well something you should also realise is that while some cars, getting power at 4000 rpms or so is useless, its quite good for cars like mine. Besides, you dont actually have to go out and spend tons of money on a CAI. Hell I picked one up custom built for me from a guy in the states for 170$ US. If you are wondering what a WAI is, its a Warm Air intake, or as some of you call it, a SRI. Either way, the same thing. I know from my experience on a domestic auto, that making those additional gains at 4000 rpms is quite nice, especially since its just at the point where I start losing power and my redline is at 6000 rpms. I honestly dont understand some of your logic as well. How could a better intake be completely useless without a proper exhaust? It still gives you half decent gains of roughly 5-8 WHP, even without the exhaust. |
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| FocusTunerzx3 |
| I presonally am going with a CAI but thats just for the type of driving i will be doing with my car also a Focus. Ill be doing mostly autocross and maybe some rally next season. The midband power gain by CAI and the fact that it does not heat up as much as SRI is the reason im picking up CAI. CAI all the way especially for newer engines. |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
depends on the engine too.. i cant juss base your whole argument off 1 fucken dyno sheet.. some cars will get WAY better gains with cai..
man you don't have a freakin clue. at least it's better than basing your opinion on marketing hype and you're own version of common-sense.
that dyno he's posting is actually one of the biggest differences between a CAI and short ram i've ever seen. Normally it's much closer between the 2.
I have a book with probably a dozen intake comparisons, you NEVER see that much difference between intakes, as long as it's a unrestricted tube, with a good filter opn the end, and it's somewhere around the correct diameter that's all you need.
Not one of you guys has any evidence that the engine bay temp WHILE MOVING are higher than the temps down by the fenderwall, so all you're doing is pure speculation. It's a guess. Show me some proof.
I saw a test once and it found the was little to no difference in the temperatures in different parts of the engine bay while the car was actually driving, |
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| Neo-Blue99GASE |
| Because a CAI isnt in the engine bay! omg.. Sorry, but this is getting a little frustrating that some people cant fully understand something. A CAI will be placed in your fenderwell. A WAI or SRI is in your engine bay and receives more heat from your engine. K we all know colder air is better right? So colder air as in a CAI will give you better gains that a WAI in your engine bay. Simple. As for the difference, it depends on the car. Some will have better gains than others. But a CAI will still be better. |
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| clapbak |
quote:
Originally posted by Neo-Blue99GASE
Because a CAI isnt in the engine bay! omg.. Sorry, but this is getting a little frustrating that some people cant fully understand something. A CAI will be placed in your fenderwell. A WAI or SRI is in your engine bay and receives more heat from your engine. K we all know colder air is better right? So colder air as in a CAI will give you better gains that a WAI in your engine bay. Simple. As for the difference, it depends on the car. Some will have better gains than others. But a CAI will still be better.
agree'ed! wish some people would maybe gather alittle common sense and put it together! :dunno: :dunno:
:P :confused: |
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| scooby_dooby |
i have a cai, if you missed that, so i think I know it's not in the engine bay. Point was that there is a tremendous amount of air blowing through your bay, and all the temps are close to the ambient air.
Anyways, you just avoided the question. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF.
Show me any quantitative evidence of the gains from drawing "colder" air from the fenderwall, as opposed to the egnine bay which has air rushing through it as it accelerates down the track.
By quantitative i mean how much faster were they able to get down the track? how much power did they gain under the curve in their engine's useable powerband? How much difference does it really make?
Truth is you have no proof, no evidence, and you won't be able to find any. Like silverTeg said it won't get you down the track faster, and it won't give you much useable power. So then the question becomes, what exactly are you paying for?
The hump at 4000rpms? That hump is useless, if I'm racing I see that hump for about 1/2 a second in 1st gear, and never again.
Sure a CAI "will probably" get slightly colder air, but the point we're making is it's not much of a difference, and you guys have been mislead about the superiority of a CAI.
Like silverTeg said, the most important aspects of choosing an intake are length and diameter which you choose based on your powerband and engine package. |
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| scooby_dooby |
Here, learn something:
HONDA INTAKE TECH
The intake. It's the first modification any import enthusiast gets and when he or she sees the sudden noticeable gain in power, they become hooked into modifying their ride. So begins the addiction for most of us. So why do I have a tech article on something we have all gone beyond and left behind in the distant past? After all, we are no longer newbies! Well, there are several controversies about intakes that still crop up even among more experienced enthusiasts and so, let's get at these and discuss them, shall we? :
A. Short Ram vs CAI (single chamber)
When hooked up to a single stage runner intake manifold (like the ITR IM) , the AEM CAI provides some gains in the upper rpms and a big increase in power from 4000-5000 rpm ( known as the " AEM hump" where it was first seen. ).
However, does a CAI make more power than a short ram with the same diameter and filter material?
For enthusiasts with single stage runner intake manifolds and mega cams that can rev up to 9000 rpm or more, the AEM/Injen- style CAI actually stops making more power after 8000-8300 rpm . The gain in power for AEM that is quoted in the ads occur at the famous "AEM hump" and not in the upper rpms after 7000 rpm.
Believe it or not, a short ram with the same diameter does pretty well in the upper rpm range from 7000-9000 rpm !
Is it just about getting "colder air" that makes the CAI appear to be better? What role does the intake tube's length play in making big all motor power? Is having a "constant diameter" (constant velocity) different from having a "tapered diameter" tube like the J's intake?
Let's look at this AEM hump. You may not have noticed this isolated gain from 4000-5000 rpm before on the AEM CAI's and single stage manifolds but look at any Integra LS, Type R, or Civic B16a dyno with an AEM CAI and there it is sticking out like a sore thumb by itself....this is what most people "feel" as a noticeable gain on the butt dyno after installing one of these. The more relevant gains at the upper rpms where the fast 11-12 sec et all motor street cars make power are not "felt" by the butt dyno. Don't rely on the butt dyno to tell if you are faster.
In the 2000 NIRA Comp4 all motor championship final, Stephen Sakai ran his 1997 ITR to a high 12 sec et beating Jeff Taylor's B18C5-powered GSR using a homemade 3 in. diameter short ram intake with a K&N RU3130 filter. Jeff's car had an AEM CAI (see their dynos below).
Steve Sakai's high 12 sec. et all motor ITR with stock short ram & K&N - nothing fancy but it worked.
http://www.sgt-racing.com/
Here's a dyno of Jeff's and Stephen's cars back then before the finals
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Taylor 1999 and 2001 NIRA Comp 4 Champion
basically you can see from these (dyno) plots why Steve just killed me on top end and my car was being held back by the jdm 4-1 that I modified. It's actually very interesting. It also shows that blast of power the aem (in red) gives you from 4-5k rpms...lol. yup...thats about all it does. This is where they can make crazy hp statements....they aren't really fibbing...look at the HP increase at a given rpm...Steve was telling me it was the short ram intake (in green) ....but that damn aem had me fooled until I did this comparison and saw for myself. He gets the credit for it.
I'm not saying that (short) ram air isn't better...I'm saying that short ram in my opinion seems (remember I said "seems") to be fine. Look at the (aem) plot...its nothing more then a power spike. I'm sure it's useful but once you get past it, its very difficult to tell if its beneficial to any degree <hr>
So Jeff is saying that the AEM hump at 4000-5000 rpm is what gives the longer CAI it's advertised peak torque gain but after 5000 rpm there's no similar gain. Longer tubes make power earlier in the lower rpms compared to the shorter tube.
Here's Val's comparison of a 3 in. diameter <short ram and a 3 in. diameter AEM CAI on his B20 nonVTEC with Crower 62404 cams, JDM 4-1, and 2.36 in. exhaust. The short ram version was not tuned to it's potential either. Remember, this is a comparison of 2 intakes on the same engine. The only thing that has changed was the intake.
When the diameters of the intakes are identical, there is virtually no difference between the 2 intakes from 5700 rpm to the redline (upper powerband) and only a difference at the infamous "AEM hump" in the midrange.
Now some of you CAI people may argue that a chassis WOT dyno does not take advantage of the colder air, since the car is stationary and in a moving vehicle, cold air feeds the CAI. That test, comparing a CAI with a fan blowing air to the fenderwell to a short ram (with the same diameter and filter material), on the same car may show a difference, since the temperature differential may be greater than on a typical chassis dyno pull...or will it?:
The temperature differential between the outside ambient temp. and engine bay temp. under the hood at the short ram intake opening has been measured while an Integra is travelling at speed. There is virtually no difference in temperature. We can expect the temp/ effect between short ram vs. CAI to be not as big as people think.
In Formula car single plenum intake manifold testing, we see that the same rule is consistently seen, when it comes to relating intake length and the location of maximal volumetic efficiency (cylinder filling) along the rpm range (ie. shorter length shifts the maximal filling efficiency higher up the rpm range). Here is the graph showing volumetic efficiency vs. rpm for different length intake tubes in a single plenum, single stage runner IM ( from http://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/~jchick/Y5/...ent/public_html ):
Longer pipes shift the max. filling efficiency to a lower rpm and shorter pipes or no pipe shifts the maximum filling efficiency to the upper rpm's.
Some short ram people would say that bigger VTEC race cams would really show how good a short ram can be above 6500 rpm.
For now, Steven Sakai's performance at the 2000 final and Val's dyno (the only one comparing the same diameter) basically says there is no difference, as long as you get the diameter right (i.e. more than 3 in. ID in a single chamber design).
It makes scientific sense from a fluid dynamics point of view :
A bigger diameter tube allows more air to go in but at a slower speed (more cross sectional area). The air flow speed needed to make peak volumetric efficiency occurs at a higher rpm compared to a smaller diameter tube.
A longer tube creates faster air flow compared to a short tube (i.e. more pressure differential from the opening to the TB end) and peak volumetric efficiency will occur at an earlier (i.e. lower) rpm. This is why a longer CAI has an advantage in the midrange over a short ram, regardless of intake temperature differences.
Some people prefer short rams and need their powerband to be higher with bigger cams. They get around the temperature controversy by building their own short ram heat shield.
For those on a budget and who intend to upgrade to big cams, big compression, and a big header, a 3 in. ID short ram with a homemade heatshield may be all you need. For people who want some midrange along with some upper rpm gains, the CAI ensures that butt dyno gets what it expects.
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| SplineZ |
(not directed at anyone in particular)
James Z |
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| silverTEG |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
agree'ed! wish some people would maybe gather alittle common sense and put it together! :dunno: :dunno:
:P :confused:
''
making a statement like that, shows your level of common sense.
we have proved it, with fact, and no hearsay.
until you have anything intelligent to post, or to prove otherwise, its probably best to stop now, before you look even more stupid. |
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| silverTEG |
| and thanks to scoob's for backing me up here. :bthumbup: :beer: |
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