| 2003specv |
I started practicing a couple months ago and now I'm pretty bad-ass at it. I just love barreling into a corner and cracking off perfect rev-matched downshifts all while braking. I do it so much that it's weird not to do it now.
I don't do the crazy ass heel-toe you see on Option vids (toes on brakes, heel on throttle) though. I'm too big for my car to bend my leg the way they do, and I have size 13 feet. I just keep my heel planted on the floor, put most of my foot on the brake, and have just enough of the other side of my foot over to blip the throttle.
It's fun and sounds killer to hear quick downshifts all while braking and feeling the steady deceleration of the car (as opposed to letting off the brake to rev-match your downshift).
Anybody else? |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| Yea, I always used heel-toe downshifts. I do em the crazy way too. |
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| 2003specv |
| Like me or like the Option vid guys? |
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| Pro Drag |
| I heel toe but I have wide size 12's so I do it like thread starter.:bthumbup: |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| I do it like the Options guys, I'm not quite as quick as Tsuchiya but I can do it fairly quickly. |
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| Wookey |
quote:
Originally posted by 2003specv
Like me or like the Option vid guys?
I do it the same way you do:bthumbup: |
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| Bucktown |
| full heel-toe commitment:bthumbup: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Wookey
I do it the same way you do:bthumbup:
Round - eye style!;) :lol: |
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| Wookey |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
Round - eye style!;) :lol:
:asshole: :stickpoke :thefinger Damn you Blaine, Damn You! Matt can vouche for me that my girl friend is deffinetly up to par.... No round eyes are comin near me! |
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| GTS Jeff |
| its pretty much habit for me to heel-toe-double-clutch all my downshifts...when u get used to it, its not as slow as ppl think....it really wastes gas but its fun to watch my feet while im driving. it makes me feel like some jdm best motoring driver haha |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Wookey
:asshole: :stickpoke :thefinger Damn you Blaine, Damn You! Matt can vouche for me that my girl friend is deffinetly up to par.... No round eyes are comin near me!
I missed something.....:confused: |
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| TrevorK |
| I only drive a stick in the winter, so I just drive "normally"... |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
I heel toe but I have wide size 12's so I do it like thread starter.:bthumbup:
Ditto, except I have wide 13s.:bthumbup:
I fucked my ankle up when I was in elementary so I can't get my right foot to twist enough to do actual heel-toe shifts. |
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| LudeDude19 |
| i dunno.for some reason this doesn't makee alot of sense to me....maybe cuz i ahvent driven my car since september haha...but why would you give it gas to slow down? i'm confsued |
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| ManHunter |
quote:
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
heel-toe-double-clutch
Double clutch? are you driving a bus?
And I'm too short to hell-toe :dunno:
MH |
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| CryoSlash |
| heh size 13 feet :p Sucks that you guys can't heel toe... Anyway, i only really do it at the track or if it's late at night cause i don't really trust the snow :mad: Heh but whatever. |
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| JustinL |
quote:
Originally posted by LudeDude19
i dunno.for some reason this doesn't makee alot of sense to me....maybe cuz i ahvent driven my car since september haha...but why would you give it gas to slow down? i'm confsued
The clutch is down when you blip the throttle so all it does is bring the rpm up for when you engage the clutch in the lower gear. The goal is to eliminate the quick deceleration of the rear wheels and keep the car balanced under hard braking. If you were on the threshold of hard braking and you popped the clutch without matching the revs you could lose rear traction.
oops... just noticed I said everything in reference to RWD...
Justin |
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| LudeDude19 |
does anyone have like video or even pics or slow motion video of this being done? i can't picture it in my head for some reason...when do u shift
so clutch in, blip throttle with toe
downshift with revs still high and braking?
or what? |
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| JustinL |
Yup you pretty much got it.
1.Brake hard with your midfoot and rest your toes on the gas.
2. Clutch in
3. shift down/blip throttle to rev match
4. Clutch out
The trick is keeping the braking constant throughout the process |
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| LudeDude19 |
| that's gonna take me some practice!! |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by CryoSlash
heh size 13 feet :p Sucks that you guys can't heel toe... Anyway, i only really do it at the track or if it's late at night cause i don't really trust the snow :mad: Heh but whatever.
Umm.... I started the thread and I have size13 feet. Does that mean I can't do it cause you said so?
I didn't know Pontiac LE's had manual trannies and were track worthy cars. Please elaborate.
:dunno: |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
The goal is to eliminate the quick deceleration of the rear wheels and keep the car balanced under hard braking. If you were on the threshold of hard braking and you popped the clutch without matching the revs you could lose rear traction.
That's the goal of a proper heel-toe downshift, but the purpose is to keep the engine in the powerband at all times. You don't want to waste time at the corner apex doing your downshift after letting off the brakes and you can't always go down enough gears before you get on the brakes.
I know you know this Justin, I'm just posting for LudeDudes sake.
:bthumbup:
quote:
Originally posted by LudeDude19
does anyone have like video or even pics or slow motion video of this being done?
I have a couple vids of it being done the JDM way. The smallest vid is 58 megs though. I don't have any of it being done the round eye way. Let me know if you want the vid. |
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| Insomniac |
Why do you guys call it the JDM way? Just cause you saw it some JDM video? Heel and toe is heel and toe. Different movements work from different people, and in different cars.
My slant eyed dad taught me the "roundeye" way and I taught myself the "JDM" way after seeing a spanish driver do it in a british car.
:rolleyes: |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
Why do you guys call it the JDM way? Just cause you saw it some JDM video?
You got it, and I'll call it whatever the hell I want. |
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| snugs |
hehe, round eye with mullet says if you're heel toeing around town its probably time to get a bigger powerband.
LOL @ "JDM way" :lol: |
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| GTS Jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by ManHunter
Double clutch? are you driving a bus?
And I'm too short to hell-toe :dunno:
MH
no i drive a corolla.
i only heel-toe-double-clutch booting around town cuz its fun. if i want to be fast, i skip the double-clutch part, altho after doing it lots, the double-clutching isnt too slow either.. |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| A lot of people say that double clutching is fairly useless unless your driving a truck transmission, but I still do it anyways for peace of mind. Gives the synchros time to "relax" if you will, and it seems a much smoother way of rev-matching, albeit more time consuming. |
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| midnite |
| in my last car it was easier with the toe on the gas, in my rsx it's easier with toe on the brake. |
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| arabian_ryda |
| i tryed heal-toe a couple of times in open areas when no ones around these past few weeks to see what its like. im just starting to rev match when i down shift nearing a red light or when over taking someone or is that double clutching? |
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| Buddyworm |
Yup, I heel toe pretty much every time I don't have to come to a complete stop at a corner. I do it the crazy way as well. When I was just starting out my knees kept hitting the steering wheel. I also wound up squishing the jewels between my legs too :blink: So I moved my seat back a bit and now the boys are fine.
B-Wurm :D |
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| 2003specv |
| LudeDude19 I tried to reply to your PM about the vid but your box is full. |
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| REFLUX |
I try to but can't seem to find a way I like
need more practice...so clunky
also, though heel-toe is beneficial it is not the only way to go around the track fast
there are plenty of people who don't heel-toe and seriously whoop ass
double-clutching is something that I do just for fun but it's becoming a habit |
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| CanadianR |
Actually i believe Justin's reason is the biggest reason for heel-toe downshifting; to keep the car balanced and prevent sudden weight transfer and a possible spin. Well definately in a rear drive anyway. Both reasons are enough to warrant doing it on the track. By the way i do it all the time in both the itr and my winter beater. I do it with my toes/inside ball of foot on the brake and the outside ball of my foot on the gas and rool my ankle to blip. Strangely enough the pedal position on the winter beater seems to be better for my feet than on the integra. It's also a little weird going from the itr with a 8.xx pound flywheel to the Colt with god knows how heavy of a flywheel.
I also find that getting consistent brake pressure while doing it is the hardest thing to get down. My last observation is that it was relatively easy to do at Race City, but WAY more challenging to do in an autocross setting. |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
double-clutch all my downshifts..
Double clutching is pretty useless.
But I can't heel-toe. I try but it just looks like I'm on crack. |
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| Mustard |
I always heel toe... and i do it the "roundeye syle" i suppose, with brake under heel and toes over the gas.
I can do it both ways, but i look retarded doin it the other way, my leg just doesn't wanna bend that way. Heel over gas and toes over brake, that is....though it is easier to modulate the breaking with your toe, rather then your heel. This comes into play more so during a track situation where threshold braking is key... not so much in teh street.
I always used to double clutch my 4th to 2nd shifts too, non of the other ones.... 4rth to 2nd is not a bad idea to double clutch. It's just good for the engine, really.
I did it all the time, but not since it started spitting a cloud of blue oily smoke out the tail pipe every time i did...
I really wish i knew why it was doing it too :( it seemed like blow-by or something, and only started happening after my turbo install.
Hopefully new turbo solves the porblem, and it was just leaking or something. :confused: |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by Mustard
I did it all the time, but not since it started spitting a cloud of blue oily smoke out the tail pipe every time i did...
I really wish i knew why it was doing it too :( it seemed like blow-by or something, and only started happening after my turbo install.
Hopefully new turbo solves the porblem, and it was just leaking or something. :confused:
Fucked your piston rings over maybe...? |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by Mustard
I really wish i knew why it was doing it too :( it seemed like blow-by or something, and only started happening after my turbo install.
Hopefully new turbo solves the porblem, and it was just leaking or something. :confused:
Hey no thread hijacks Bong!:p |
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| GTS Jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by Mekanik22
Double clutching is pretty useless.
well so is racing...but racing's bad for your health
anyway, the reason the proper way of heel-toe is to have your heel on the throttle and toe on the brake is control. the most sensitive part of your foot is the ball of your foot, which is what u should be using for precise braking control.
most people who think that theyre so good at heel toe usually arent braking as well as they could be (me included) |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| Braking is also the hardest thing to determine while racing. Not only do you have to know when to break, but the amount of pressure to apply and when to release can all make or break your times while on a racetrack. And double-clutching is not useless. It can save you from shearing a gear or ruining your synchros based on how heavy duty your transmission is. For everyday, it is going overboard, but it gives me peace of mind and I can do it quickly, so its no skin off my back. |
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| JustinL |
IMHO Double declutching is totally useless on a car with a syncromesh transmision. I see no advantage to it unless your syncros aren't working as they should (either worn out or very cold). If the argument is wear on the transmision, I would argue that the trade off is wear on the clutch. I've never worn a syncro out before, but when they do wear out then it's time to double declutch.
Have a look at this hot lap video. This is how to shift.Video link
Again, IMHO
Justin |
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| GTS Jeff |
| im not arguing how useful double clutching is or isnt...i just do it cuz its fun. |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
Have a look at this hot lap video. This is how to shift.Video link
Awesome vid! What's the name of that beautiful track again? I read about it in Sports Car International, it's somewhere in the states and the guy who built it is really picky about having a clean track, not covered in ugly sponsorship signs, and just look at the grass it's like a racetrack built on a golf course! That big building you see at 1:16 is a vintage car (and bike I think) museum.
Does VIR= Virginia International Raceway? |
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| JustinL |
Yes, that is Virginia international raceway. I wish we could get a nice roadcourse built around here that looked like that.
Jeff, you definetly get a style bonus for double declutching :bthumbup: and if you ever need to race in a vintage race you'll be good to go.
Justin |
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| Kiddo |
| noob question what is double clutching? can anyone explain to me what rev matching is? |
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| JustinL |
The simplest way to think about it is like this. There are 3 things that are spinning 1. the engine 2. The transmission 3. the wheels
If smoothness is the key, then we want the 2 things we are connecting to be spinning together at the same speed when they connect to eachother. The engine and the transmission are connected by a clutch and the transmission and wheels are connected by dogteeth on the gears. In neutral, none of the dogteeth are engaged in the transmission.
Rev matching is syncronizing the engine speed to wheel speed to have smooth engagement when you let off the clutch. That is, the car is in gear so the transmission and wheels have established their speed, and you are matching the engine speed to this before engaging the clutch.
Double declutching is syncronizing the dog teeth in the transmission so when you engage the gear, the collar (directly connected to the wheels) and the gear are the same speed and slip together. In modern transmissions, there are syncros on each gear that syncronize the dog teeth before they engage.
Clear as mud?
Again, it's a little more complicated than this but this works.
Justin |
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| s2oooR |
| all i gotta say is that it's much easier with a lighter flywheel.... you dont have to wait as long ( we're talking under a second here) for the revs to come up ..... you'll definitely feel a difference with an 8lb flywheel :bthumbup: |
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| IDTrav |
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| ChromeDragon |
| What's with the cooler sitting beside the driver in that video? Is it some sort of vital organ transplant run?:dunno: |
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| JustinL |
Nope he's late for a BBQ after stopping to pick up the beer.
:beer: |
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