| REFLUX |
This was brought up by Inzane in another thread.
It seems like some people feel it is very important to fill up a new oil filter with oil before screwing it on so the engine won't be starved of oil at startup (since it will have a period of time where the oil is impregnating the filter & not lubing the engine)
And others don't believe it makes a difference (myself included).
What's your say? |
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| DeathBy240 |
I havent in the past, but I am gonna start. The thought never crossed my mind.
Actually come to think of it, my filter mounts horizonatally, and that would be a mess. I alway pull my cam angle sensor and crank to get the engine lubed before I start it anyway. |
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| 2003specv |
| I do when I can but my filter is mounted sideways on this car so I can't. |
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| night_font |
| yes, i usually do because i heard that is recommended so that when u start the engine for the first time after u add oil it gets oil instantly to the lubricating parts, its just a habbit for me i guess, all should do it to! |
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| Inzane |
I hope this poll wasn't intended as a bash towards me.
Anyway I voted yes, for my Z anyway because I ALWAYS do fill the new filter up before installing (because I can on that car).
But if it was that super critical then they (car manufacturers) probably would've designed ALL cars to have the oil filter on the very bottom.
Like I mentioned in your other thread, I have no choice but to install a dry filter in my Sentra every time because it mounts sideways. I don't like the fact that I'm installing a dry filter but I can't do anything about that and my car doesn't appear to have suffered so far because of it, in the 4 years I've owned it.
:dunno: |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
| I do once and a while onthe neon cause the position of the filter allows it, but on most of the vechiles I drive it mounts sideways... so ya messy. I normally fire it up right after filling it.. so the top end still has oil on it from filling so it's not completely dry. |
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| chris@apex |
| Well lets look at it this way, oil is picked up fast, i mean really fast on start up, most cars wont start tell the minumin oil pressure is meet, so you can see how fast this happends. Like it was said, what about oil filters on there side? its only half full. what about alot of new engiens, the new 2.2 eco tec has a cartage that is upside down, runs dry after you turn off the engine, same as the 270 CDI in the G-wagon, dry after shut doun. I dont matter, i have tore down lots of mortors that have had the bag run off them , bad matiance and shuch, after 160K there still crosshaching on the cylenders, and all the berrings show no signs of wear, good for anther 100k. Oil starved engiens seam to be peoples bigest fear, i dont know why. but trust me i have seen the worst you could do to the oiling system and the engine is fine. |
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| Curtass |
The only time you SHOULD fill your filter first (if possible due to placement) is on a car/truck with a turbo. Usually the turbo oil feed line is right next to the filter. It's just good practice. On none turbos, it don't matter. I have yet to hear one bad thing about not filling it to this day.
- Curt |
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| Pro Drag |
| When the setup allows it, always. |
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| MX5 Miata Guy |
quote:
Originally posted by chris@apex
On start up, most cars wont start tell the minumin oil pressure is meet
:bs: Bullshit!
A car will start just fine with not a drop of oil in it...there is no sensor to correlate the existence of oil pressure to allowing the engine to start. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
When the setup allows it, always.
I do as well.
Does it make a difference? No one can say.
But it doesn't cost anything, and can only help... |
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| chris@apex |
quote:
Originally posted by MX5 Miata Guy
:bs: Bullshit!
A car will start just fine with not a drop of oil in it...there is no sensor to correlate the existence of oil pressure to allowing the engine to start.
Then whats that little light thats on, that looks like a crappy oil container when koeo??? thats right IT YOUR F&^KEN LOW OIL PRESURE WARNING LIGHT!! no oil pressure no worky worky. Car starts light goes off. |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
I hope this poll wasn't intended as a bash towards me.
Anyway I voted yes, for my Z anyway because I ALWAYS do fill the new filter up before installing (because I can on that car).
But if it was that super critical then they (car manufacturers) probably would've designed ALL cars to have the oil filter on the very bottom.
Like I mentioned in your other thread, I have no choice but to install a dry filter in my Sentra every time because it mounts sideways. I don't like the fact that I'm installing a dry filter but I can't do anything about that and my car doesn't appear to have suffered so far because of it, in the 4 years I've owned it.
:dunno:
hahahahha sorry man but this thread has NO intention to bash ANYONE.
I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.
But yes, this thread WAS started because you brought up the oil filter thing in my other thread. The idea was interesting and I just wanted to see what other people do
:dunno:
no harm intended bud, my apologies if I came across the wrong way
with that said, back ON topic:
I'll try filling up the filter next oil change but for sure on my Mazda it won't do much good since the oil filter opening points down the oil would drain out. Maybe just to lube up the filtering material so it takes less time to fill the filter??? |
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| lowryder99 |
quote:
Originally posted by MX5 Miata Guy
:bs: Bullshit!
A car will start just fine with not a drop of oil in it...there is no sensor to correlate the existence of oil pressure to allowing the engine to start.
Dude come on, get your facts straight before you call b.s. on an engine builder.
My 98 silverado will NOT start until there is oil pressure, I first learned this when I changed the oil and had a 10 second crank time....read up on the net and found out it won't start period with no oil pressure.
Maybe it's something about miata's? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
hahahahha sorry man but this thread has NO intention to bash ANYONE.
I don't even know how you came to that conclusion.
no harm intended bud, my apologies if I came across the wrong way
LOL... No worries man. It was late... I was tired... in my sleep-deprived overly paranoid state last night I first interpreted your poll thread as:
"Hey everyone, there's this guy that says its important to fill your oil filter. What do you guys think, is he a moron or what??"
:lol:
I see the error in that now. Cheers. :beer: |
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| REFLUX |
haha cool, glad we cleared this up :)
:beer: |
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| ChromeDragon |
If the vehicle has a vertical filter I always do. Otherwise I try to do the oil changes with the oil warmed only part way so that there is some retention in the head.
Only 2 of my personal vehicles have had vertical filters though, so I have mostly done it when working on trucks/buses, etc.
Most engines are going to retain enough oil on the engine parts that it shouldn't be a huge concern if they run for a few seconds before getting oil pressure. If you're really concerned about it running before the system is pressured up you could pull the coil wire(s) and turn the engine over until there is pressure. |
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| Nis24O |
Both my vehicles have sideways oil filters, so its not really possible to prime the oil filter. At work the only cars we prime the oil filer in is the diesel trucks.
I would be more worried about damage that occurs at start up when you have let the car sit a few day or months than the damage from a few seconds without full oil pressure. If your so worried just unplug the distributor and crank a few times to build oil pressure. |
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| notaturbotalon |
| You can unplug the ignition coil (for better cars without a distributer) and crank your car over if you're worried about starvation. I wouldn't worry about it unless you've installed new parts such as a turbo or camshafts that need lubrication before running. |
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| BLK_LBL |
i worked at an oil change place for almost 2 years, changed oil on almost everything.
it is possible to still fill a oil filter 1/2 full, and then turn it sideways, and install it on the car without making a big mess.
all ive known 'for sure' is that on turbo cars/trucks its always a good idea to prime the filter.
ive heard some BAD startups on some cars. it takes around 3 seconds for a typical car to build up oil pressure, and sometimes for those 3 seconds the engine sounds like death.
not every vehicle is equiped with the feature that doesnt let you start it without oil pressure.
but one thing i know from just watching my oil pres gauge, is that ive had some cold winter startups that have taken longer to get oil pressure, than a start with an empty filter. so really, if starting a car with a unprimed filter is bad, then these winter starts must be killer. |
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| REDX2NV |
| One mistake people make though, is always subtract the amount you put into the oil filer from the total oil engine capacity, or otherwise you will be overfillling it. |
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| notaturbotalon |
| Most manuals will give you two different capacities, one for if you don't remove the filter and one for when you do. |
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| ChromeDragon |
Well you shouldn't be putting the full amount in anyways. Add oil until you're showing about 90% of the way up on the dipstick, start and run the engine for 10-15 seconds, shut it off and check for leaks, check level again and top it up to the line.
I don't know how many times I've seen people not check their car after finishing the oil change and it's spewing from the filter because they forgot to tighten it or something similarly stupid.
Speaking of filters, DO NOT over tighten them. Overtightening the filter can actually restrict oil flow on vehicles. Spin the filter on until you get seal contact (always put a little oil on the seal to help sealing) and then go 3/4 to one turn past. You shouldn't ever have to use a filter wrench to tighten or loosen your filter.....unless you're not strong enough to turn the filter by hand.
I have only once taken my own vehicle to have its oil changed at a service station. Last winter during that cold snap I took my Corolla to LubeX. They seemed to do a decent job, but over the next couple months I noticed my oil pressure was lower than usual. I started to suspect that they had overtightened the filter so I grabbed some stuff and did my next oil change a little early. The filter was on so tight that I was unable to get it moving, even after punching a screw driver through it. Because of the location of the filter, getting a filter wrench on it was impossible, so I attempted the screwdriver route. I punched the screwdriver through and when I tried to turn it the filter just tore apart.
So at this point I was a little stuck (not to mention covered in oil). Eventually I decided that the only way I was going to get this (half) filter off was to heat it with a propane torch and grab onto what was left with a set of vice grips. While it did work, I took every precaution and had two fire extinguishers standing by with the pins pulled. Surprisingly, heating an oil soaked torn apart oil filter with an extremely hot open flame could serve to be a bit of a fire hazard.
Thankfully my garage didn't burn to the ground and I got the filter off within about two minutes. What pissed me off the most is that after getting the new filter on my oil pressure rose back up. This stupid kid had tightened it so much that it was causing a near 50% drop in oil pressure.
Needless to say I have never returned to LubeX. |
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| MX5 Miata Guy |
quote:
Originally posted by chris@apex
Then whats that little light thats on, that looks like a crappy oil container when koeo??? thats right IT YOUR F&^KEN LOW OIL PRESURE WARNING LIGHT!! no oil pressure no worky worky. Car starts light goes off.
Yes, it's an idiot light...an oil pressure warning light.
BUT...
First off, every car in existence that was carbureted (1890s to well into the 1980s...and probably still today in many parts of the world) starts just fine with or without oil pressure...regardless of an idiot light or not.
In brief, the starter motor turns the engine over, which spins the distributor (connected to the crankshaft via a gear), which allows for current to flow to the spark plugs in time with their intended delivery cycle, spark goes bang, air/fuel mixture goes boom, and the car's running. Oil pressure is secondary.
Some vehicles have pre-oilers, which is to say, a manner in which the motor could be turned over without starting. Old Land Rovers come to mind as one such vehicle. Many large trucks have the same, though in most of those cases it's an electric oil pump as opposed to cranking the engine. This is all in an effort to actually have oil pressure in the motor when it's fired up.
An interesting aside...the turbocharged Honda F1 engines of World Championship fame (think McLarens of Senna, Prost, and others, not the current BAR engine) ran with ZERO oil pressure...merely suction / gravity flow. Oil pressure within an engine is actually a source of parasitic drag, and in their efforts to provide as much power out of the motor as possible, they found a way to run it without pressure (in the block).
Fuel injected cars, with ECUs that sense things, also start just fine with or without pressure. Sure, in most cars there's an idiot light, again registering the fact that there is no oil pressure when you turn the key from ACC to ON. You'll note that when you turn the key from ON to START, the light stays on, even after the car starts. It does take time for pressure to build (simply cranking the engine over on the starter motor takes a long time to build pressure) and the light can stay on from a split-seconds to a couple of seconds...depending on how full your car is or how empty the head / oil system is.
For those of us lucky enough to own cars with a real oil pressure gauge, you'll even be able to watch as things unfold. On my car, a 1990 Miata, there is one and only one oil pressure sending unit...and it's plugged into the oil pressure gauge and nothing else. I can easily start the car with the sending unit unplugged from the gauge, and I have confirmed that there is nothing...nada...connected between any oil pressure sending device and the ecu.
In spring, when I take my car out of storage from its five-month hibernation, I crank the engine over, with the fuel injector relay disconnected, until the starter motor has turned the engine (and thereby the oil pump) over long enough to actually build pressure in the engine. This typically takes 60-90 seconds. I do this so that I know the turbo has received some oil, as has the head. The oil pressure sending unit is downstream of the head, so I know it's safe (in my books) to fire the car up. Many in our club simply start their cars up without first cranking it over, and many do report getting quite alarmed at how long it takes, with the car running, to actually see any pressure reported on the gauge.
After oil changes, it's typical that you turn the motor over to circulate the oil somewhat to gauge whether you've got enough in the sump. I used to simply start it, but again, noted that it took a couple of seconds for the pressure reading on the gauge to register. Lately, again due to my own desire, I crank the motor over without letting it start, for about 10-15 seconds, then stop cranking, allow the car to start, and then start it, so that when it does start, oil has had a chance to circulate in the engine before running.
So, I may have generalized...some vehicles may well have a sensor that doesn't permit the spark plugs to fire off until there is some pressure...but that's the exception, not the norm. |
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| chris@apex |
I have been working on engines for the past 10 years, and cars and trucks for the last 7, and high performance engines for the last two years, i got asked to be part owner of a preformance shop. you dont get the reputation that Apex has from not knowing anything.
And when i say cars and trucks, i mean big army stuff, and the new g-wagon, this thing has a more computers then you can shake a stick at, not only will not start if the oil presure is down, or oil is low, it wont start if the qulity of the oil is not high enugh.
Valvos, gmc, ford, styer, detroit desiel, chevy, vw, honda, mercedes, nissan, toyda, you name it there is a good chance i have worked on it.
but of course at the end of the day, I have my way of doing things, you have yours
it's all good
Arguing on the internet is like winning a gold medal at the spiceal olypics, even if you win you still a retard |
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| REFLUX |
This is a thread on technical discussion, not your credentials nor wit nor how emotional you are about oil pressure at startup.
If you are not contributing directly to the topic of this thread, which is if you fill up your oil filter or not, then please do not post.
If you have good reason to justify your side of the argument, then lay it out in a legible, intelligent and emotion free manner.
Otherwise your argument has no solid base for arguing and is not credible in the least way. |
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| chickendreamer |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
This was brought up by Inzane in another thread.
It seems like some people feel it is very important to fill up a new oil filter with oil before screwing it on so the engine won't be starved of oil at startup (since it will have a period of time where the oil is impregnating the filter & not lubing the engine)
And others don't believe it makes a difference (myself included).
What's your say?
The problem with this is that most engine's have the oil filtered before it goes into the oilpan, NOT after the oil pump pulls it to the top of the engine. Think about it, do youo really think a fram pleated paper filter can handle pressures up to 100psi? |
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| chris@apex |
| most cars its on the vacuume side, in fact about 100% most of the crap in your oil comes from your engine, metal filings and such, so do you think it picks it up, pumps it through your engine then pushes it throu you oil filter? what about all thoes litthe gallires in you head? do they lead in to your filter? no, what about a oil return tube from a turbo? no, the pump pulls it up in to the filter under vacuume, then off to the pump to prissurise it. And why woul they have by-pass valves in filters? so when you filter gets pluged your pump can still draw oil throu it. |
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| scooby_dooby |
Like probably most of the honda guys I have a ide mount oil filter so that would just be a mess.
How long can oil take to circulate anyways? My cold idle is 2000rpms, that over 30 revolutions every second, so 1 second of running is equivalent to cranking it over like 33 times....
I'm under the belief that since most cars will see a good 50-100oil changes i their life, that if this was at all important to do Honda would've printed it in the owners manual.
And further, no honda's can do this since they're all side mounted oil filter, at least the ones I've seen, and these engines run 500,000km's with routine mainetnance, so I don't see how detrimental this empty oil-filter can be, |
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| chickendreamer |
quote:
Originally posted by chris@apex
most cars its on the vacuume side, in fact about 100% most of the crap in your oil comes from your engine, metal filings and such, so do you think it picks it up, pumps it through your engine then pushes it throu you oil filter? what about all thoes litthe gallires in you head? do they lead in to your filter? no, what about a oil return tube from a turbo? no, the pump pulls it up in to the filter under vacuume, then off to the pump to prissurise it. And why woul they have by-pass valves in filters? so when you filter gets pluged your pump can still draw oil throu it.
My bad, erf... I feel like a turd now. It is filtered before it goes up to the top of the engine. Anyhow, I don't think it's neccessary to pre-fill the filter. |
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| 3gec |
I think maybe with bigger trucks it is necessary because there is usually 2 oil filters and they use so much more oil. As for cars I am not sure if they fill my oil filter or not I got lifetime free oilchanges on my car. But persoanlly when changing oil on a vehicle I don't fill the filter. The way I was thinking is that when you pour oil into your engine it always goes in through the top coating the cylinders. There for lube the car instatly. Most people will start their car after changing to oil so then after filling the engine then oil is still dripping down throughwhile also filling the pan and the filter. This is how I thought it would work I am prolly wrong.
Therefore I don't think it's neccessary to fill the filter firsts. |
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| 92_WhItE_H23 |
| im going to have to side with mx5 on this one...a few years ago i bottomed out my tempo. the oil pan was tore right off...it sat for over 45 minutes, i was stupid and figured i should start the car so i could move it..(it was night i didnt notice the oil everywhere nor had i bothered to take a closer look at the damage) nonetheless the car started and ran successfully for a good minute... |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by 3gec
The way I was thinking is that when you pour oil into your engine it always goes in through the top coating the cylinders. There for lube the car instatly.
It doesn't coat the cylinders when you put oil in, or else it would burn would it not? The oil is always below the pistons rings (unless the rings are worn out). It coats the cylinder head then drips down into the oil pan through oil galleries in the block. When you start the engine after putting oil in, the soul purpose for that is to fill the oil filter to get a true reading of what's in the oil pan. Even a small filter holds a close to a liter of oil or more.
Keeping this "drip down" effect in mind, you don't fill the oil to the "Max" line on your dipstick simply because you still have 0.3 to 0.5 of a litre still dripping down so that will take it up to the max line. It doesn't happen all the time, but if you overfill an oil pan, over time it will push seals out by over-pressuring. More oil doesn't mean better. |
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| chris@apex |
Too much oil will not blow your seals, i say again it will not blow your seals. seals within the engine do not hold any oil pressure, they keep the oil in the engine. I had a vw come in to the shop once, blew smoke like you would not beleave. i havent seen smoke screns in the army this good, compresion check, good. leak down good, check oil, to the top of the stick! the dude filled the engine full of oil, to the top of the head. when you would get on the gas the blow by as little as it was. was forcing oil in to the pcv tube and the intake was drawing in leaters of oil and burning it. seals were fine.
So i had to ask, "how long has it been doing this? " cupple of months now" i just shook my head. |
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| SketchifisT |
I do it just from habit. but i worked at a oil change place for a couple months so not all cars allow it.
question tho for someone who knows more then me. On a akward install with the filter cant you just fill the filter up a bit? i did that on my 79 civic because it was kinda angled enough that a full oil filter or nearly full would be a messy thing.
Just curious if that is wrong or not |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
I do it just from habit. but i worked at a oil change place for a couple months so not all cars allow it.
question tho for someone who knows more then me. On a akward install with the filter cant you just fill the filter up a bit? i did that on my 79 civic because it was kinda angled enough that a full oil filter or nearly full would be a messy thing.
Just curious if that is wrong or not
Yeah - even when you put it in sideways you can typically still put a bit in the filter.
It may not help at all, but it takes 2 seconds and can cause NO HARM.
For an average person who does 4 oil changes/year, you lose 8 seconds of your life. |
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| ColinSiR |
| i never have filled up my oil filter. never will. i just pay to get my oil changed. once every 20k :) cause i dont give a shit about my car |
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| mike3 |
| I've never filled the oil filter either, i've never even thought about it until now...except my oil filter is mounted horizontal, so it would make a nice mess. |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
Yeah - even when you put it in sideways you can typically still put a bit in the filter.
It may not help at all, but it takes 2 seconds and can cause NO HARM.
For an average person who does 4 oil changes/year, you lose 8 seconds of your life.
Really, it's better not to do that when it's a turbocharged engine. The last thing you want to do is starve the turbo. In most cases, you won't hurt it, but there is that possiblity you may not want to take. |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by chris@apex
Too much oil will not blow your seals, i say again it will not blow your seals. seals within the engine do not hold any oil pressure, they keep the oil in the engine. I had a vw come in to the shop once, blew smoke like you would not beleave. i havent seen smoke screns in the army this good, compresion check, good. leak down good, check oil, to the top of the stick! the dude filled the engine full of oil, to the top of the head. when you would get on the gas the blow by as little as it was. was forcing oil in to the pcv tube and the intake was drawing in leaters of oil and burning it. seals were fine.
So i had to ask, "how long has it been doing this? " cupple of months now" i just shook my head.
You can make seals leak. Ford example I've seen a few 1999+ Ford Winstars with the oil pan gasket pushed RIGHT out on the right hand side of the oil pan. What is this from? It can't just "fall out". So pressure does play a factor in the life of your seals. It's a good practice to keep the oil to spec. That's why manufacturers have a max line on their dipsticks. It's not there to look good.
But I see what your saying. That's also why there is a PCV valve system there, for people like you mentioned above. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Mekanik22
Really, it's better not to do that when it's a turbocharged engine. The last thing you want to do is starve the turbo. In most cases, you won't hurt it, but there is that possiblity you may not want to take.
It's better not to put any oil in the filter when it's turbocharged?
That made no sense.... |
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| Mekanik22 |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
It's better not to put any oil in the filter when it's turbocharged?
That made no sense....
No, it is better. I worded it wrong, my bad.
What I was saying is, you want to fill up the filter or you stand the chance of starving the turbo of oil even for those few seconds you start the car. It's a chance you may not want to take. |
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