| wong |
| Is it legal to have aftermarket HID's? |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
Ah, here's a question I've been seeking an answer to myself...
The thing is, I think they might be...
When I switched over to HID, everyone seems to think I'm running with my Highs on all of the time!. I get flashed all the time. Including a Police Cruiser.
I think it is because of the reflector and design of the lens. They weren't designed to handle that type of output so the lens/reflector combo throws the beam all over the place...
I dunno, Jim??... |
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| Dirty_SOHC |
| With my HID I used to get flashed till I lowered the headlights by 40-50 feet. Now I only get flashed 1 a week |
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| albertarc |
The actual HID light systems are not illegal. It's the aftermarket bulbs that claim to be identical to HID that are illegal. This is because the bulbs are tinted. I agree that maybe you'll have to adjust the headlights a bit after a system is installed.
Jimbo B) |
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| redbaron303 |
I have "fake," I think, HID's on my 300zx; honestly they shine white you I have them on in a nice dark place. They aren't as bright as the true hid's on my dad TL but they're still bright.
So far I haven't been pulled over, stopped, or anything for the way my car is. If I ever was for the colour of my headlights, I'd deffinatly try to get off that charge. These lights are aftermarket and they improve visiblility for my on the road, especially the highway on low beam just like true hid's but not as bright. I don't know if i'd win but it would be worth the chance to try and win.
Again, is this lighting situation left to the descretion of the officer? What bout tinted lights, bimmer/audi lights are almost purple cause they have so much power going through em. Basically mine are illegal cause they aren't factory?! I find that ridiculous, I mean the alternative to improving headlamps is to deck the car out with foglights of all shapes, sizes and colours (as long as they aren't like the 4x4 roof lights) and from what I've read that's legal... I wish the law could make up it's mind, and maybe change for the better of modern technology, not everybody drives a stone age car. |
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| Clem |
quote:
Originally posted by BlueTurboEGG@Dec 20 2002, 07:29 AM
Ah, here's a question I've been seeking an answer to myself...
The thing is, I think they might be...
When I switched over to HID, everyone seems to think I'm running with my Highs on all of the time!. I get flashed all the time. Including a Police Cruiser.
I think it is because of the reflector and design of the lens. They weren't designed to handle that type of output so the lens/reflector combo throws the beam all over the place...
I dunno, Jim??...
I think as long as you have pink aftermarket HIDs you're ok :D |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by albertarc@Dec 20 2002, 11:03 AM
It's the aftermarket bulbs that claim to be identical to HID that are illegal. This is because the bulbs are tinted.
Yeah, I can understand why. Its a safety issue.
A few years ago I decided to try the Toucan Industries Eurolite Superwhite bulbs in my 300ZXTT. I tried both the 9005 highs and 9006 lows. They were relatively cheap back then and a few people were raving about them. I figured what the heck, I'd give them a try.
They turned out to be total crap. Yes, the bulbs were tinted blue. And yes the color of the light changed. It was definately more of a white-ish color. But the intensity of the light definately decreased. No ifs thens or buts about it. (this is assuming you keep the wattage the same - like I did).
Simple optical physics tells you that when you apply a filter to a light source, the overall light transmittence goes down (just like with window tint). These bulb manufacturers are simulating the LOOK of HIDs by tinting the bulbs, but they are not reproducing the "function".
HIDs work the way they do because of the gas thats used and the voltage that's applied to the them. That's what gives them the intensity they have. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the resulting beam color is.
All these people that get these fake bulbs are just fooling themselves if they think they are actually seeing better. (but again that depends whether they went with an increase in wattage or not). |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
quote:
Originally posted by Clem@Dec 20 2002, 12:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BlueTurboEGG@Dec 20 2002, 07:29 AM
Ah, here's a question I've been seeking an answer to myself...
The thing is, I think they might be...
When I switched over to HID, everyone seems to think I'm running with my Highs on all of the time!. I get flashed all the time. Including a Police Cruiser.
I think it is because of the reflector and design of the lens. They weren't designed to handle that type of output so the lens/reflector combo throws the beam all over the place...
I dunno, Jim??...
I think as long as you have pink aftermarket HIDs you're ok :D
Oh is that another cheap shot you punk?! :)
I've DEFENITLY turned hte headlights down, they are pretty much aimed at the ground right now...
My HID kit turns the light color purple, and when they are on, it turns everything in front of them purple...
So I guess I'm ok then :) |
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| ClubEL (AzNBonD) |
i recall the gas in the bulbs are different from the OEM bulbs compared to the PIAA bulbs. that's why lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect.
i thinkt he different gases obviously have different first ionization energy levels, ie... differenty light intensities
as for having the tinted bulbs... true that light intensity is lost.. but not that much. the reason it appears so colored from the outside is because it's tinted on the outside. consider the indices of refraction from in to out and out to in. think in terms of how window tints appear.
as for HID's... i recall in vancouver.. you have to have the actual HID housing for it to be legal... ie.. some projectors or sumfin'. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by ClubEL (AzNBonD)@Dec 20 2002, 06:23 PM
i recall the gas in the bulbs are different from the OEM bulbs compared to the PIAA bulbs. that's why lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect.
Show me some evidence to prove that. I don't believe the gases in OEM and PIAA bulbs to be any different.
(Real HIDs and the HID ballasts and bulbs that can be fitted to any car like the Phillips kit DO use a different gas though).
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it. |
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| redbaron303 |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Dec 20 2002, 10:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ClubEL (AzNBonD)@Dec 20 2002, 06:23 PM
i recall the gas in the bulbs are different from the OEM bulbs compared to the PIAA bulbs. that's why lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect.
Show me some evidence to prove that. I don't believe the gases in OEM and PIAA bulbs to be any different.
(Real HIDs and the HID ballasts and bulbs that can be fitted to any car like the Phillips kit DO use a different gas though).
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it.
I would agree... HID is HID, fake HID is not HID... I don't think there really is a grey area on this matter. Although some of the fake HID's can be bright, I feel that my fake's are great especially on the highways :) They still don't compare to the real HID's though... Does anyone know where I could get information on a real HID conversion and what it would take to implement it on my car? |
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| ClubEL (AzNBonD) |
just look at the general whiteness of those PIAA bulbs compared to your stock bulbs. the tinting just makes it more blue... not a more pure white
on the atomic level... as the current passes through the gas the protons released will have a different lamda as well as a different atomic spectrum.
assuming that the bulbs use a different halogen gas or a different combination of halogens.
BUT.... it is possible that these bulbs draw more power and a far greater current is passing through the gas... thus... a more intense brighter, whiter light.
i'm not saying their anywhere close to HIDS. i personally think there is no substitution for some real HID porjectors off a bimmer or benz. |
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| ClubEL (AzNBonD) |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Dec 20 2002, 10:14 PM
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it.
i don't know much about their manufacturing process and materials.
but it could be possible that a halogen gas is used where it takes less energy to raise the base level electrons to the next energy levels, compared to the OEM bulbs and whatever gas they use.
thus... a wavelength with a higher frequency could be emitted from this particular gas... ie... greater intensity.
possibly explaining their outrageous pricing for a pair of lightbulbs.
and ofcourse any company would try to exploit any pro they have with their product. to what degree of exageration; it is unknown to us.
also... we could do some testing if we have time.. find someone with those PIAA bulbs and get a photometer and measure the intensity in a dark garage. and get a voltmeter/ammeter to watch the power. as for gases... i really wish they'd state what gases are used... well i guess they say Xenon... but i'm sure they combine it with something else. |
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| albertarc |
Just thought I'd add a quick comment here folks ... I really like how the group is answering its member's questions. If I see any glaring errors I will interject but so far this is great. Keep up the good work!!!
Jimbo :bigthumbup: |
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| RF134A |
quote:
Originally posted by ClubEL (AzNBonD)@Dec 21 2002, 01:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Dec 20 2002, 10:14 PM
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it.
i don't know much about their manufacturing process and materials.
but it could be possible that a halogen gas is used where it takes less energy to raise the base level electrons to the next energy levels, compared to the OEM bulbs and whatever gas they use.
thus... a wavelength with a higher frequency could be emitted from this particular gas... ie... greater intensity.
possibly explaining their outrageous pricing for a pair of lightbulbs.
and ofcourse any company would try to exploit any pro they have with their product. to what degree of exageration; it is unknown to us.
also... we could do some testing if we have time.. find someone with those PIAA bulbs and get a photometer and measure the intensity in a dark garage. and get a voltmeter/ammeter to watch the power. as for gases... i really wish they'd state what gases are used... well i guess they say Xenon... but i'm sure they combine it with something else.
PIAA bulbs=crap: http://lighting.mbz.org/tech/bulbs/superwh...superwhite.html , http://www.miata.net/products/lights/piaa.html
The reason blue light doesn't appear as "bright" is because of the way your eyeballs detect light. Look here: http://www.oriel.com/down/pdf/01002.pdf
So, if you look on the chart on page 3, table 4 entitled "Photopic Efficiency", you'll see that blue light in the range of 400-440 nm has an efficiency varying from a low of 0.0004 to 0.023 (0.04% to 2.3%). So, to have a blue light "appear" as bright as a yellow lightbulb (555nm), it would have to produce anywhere from 43.47x to 2500x times more light than an uncool yellow lightbulb. More light also means more glare to other drivers. That's why the NHTSA is looking to ban blue bulbs and requesting a re-design of HID lights from car manufacturers. |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
quote:
Originally posted by redbaron303@Dec 20 2002, 11:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Dec 20 2002, 10:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ClubEL (AzNBonD)@Dec 20 2002, 06:23 PM
i recall the gas in the bulbs are different from the OEM bulbs compared to the PIAA bulbs. that's why lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect.
Show me some evidence to prove that. I don't believe the gases in OEM and PIAA bulbs to be any different.
(Real HIDs and the HID ballasts and bulbs that can be fitted to any car like the Phillips kit DO use a different gas though).
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it.
I would agree... HID is HID, fake HID is not HID... I don't think there really is a grey area on this matter. Although some of the fake HID's can be bright, I feel that my fake's are great especially on the highways :) They still don't compare to the real HID's though... Does anyone know where I could get information on a real HID conversion and what it would take to implement it on my car?
Hmmm, the Phillips based HID I have in my car was strictly a plug and play affair, how neat you want the installation is where you lose the time :)
The factory harness plugs into the female plug which goes into the ballast, from the ballast it plugs into the new bulb which you have hopefully installed already, ta-da...
I really need to clean up my install though... |
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| ClubEL (AzNBonD) |
oooo....
that Oriel chart is quite interesting
although measurements of Blackbody radiation is a little too much for rice bulbs. |
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| redbaron303 |
quote:
Originally posted by BlueTurboEGG@Dec 22 2002, 09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by redbaron303@Dec 20 2002, 11:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Dec 20 2002, 10:14 PM
[quote]Originally posted by ClubEL (AzNBonD)@Dec 20 2002, 06:23 PM
[b]i recall the gas in the bulbs are different from the OEM bulbs compared to the PIAA bulbs. that's why lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect.
Show me some evidence to prove that. I don't believe the gases in OEM and PIAA bulbs to be any different.
(Real HIDs and the HID ballasts and bulbs that can be fitted to any car like the Phillips kit DO use a different gas though).
And as far as PIAA's claim of "lesser voltage is used to have the same or greater effect", or "more candle power for the same wattage" (I forget their wording)... I believe that to be nothing more than a clever marketing ploy, with not much fact or substance behind it.
I would agree... HID is HID, fake HID is not HID... I don't think there really is a grey area on this matter. Although some of the fake HID's can be bright, I feel that my fake's are great especially on the highways :) They still don't compare to the real HID's though... Does anyone know where I could get information on a real HID conversion and what it would take to implement it on my car?
Hmmm, the Phillips based HID I have in my car was strictly a plug and play affair, how neat you want the installation is where you lose the time :)
The factory harness plugs into the female plug which goes into the ballast, from the ballast it plugs into the new bulb which you have hopefully installed already, ta-da...
I really need to clean up my install though... [/b][/quote]
Are there people who'd charge a reasonable amount to do the instal? Is this philips kit something that can be used on any car?! What about the katz system, i've heard good things about that, or is it just a knockoff again?! |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
If you want I can help you with the install for a lunch or something :)
I think the Katz system is a knockoff aswell.
The Katz bulbs have a small ballast "just like the real thing" to help "increase the discharge energy" just like the real thing...
Granted, I have yet to see these things in action, but my bet is that they'll just fall into the catagory of useless.
Just save up for the real thing, you won't be dissapointed :bigthumbup:
ps. I looked through half of my SCC back issues during my holidays, no luck yet on locating that mag... further bulletins as events warrant :) |
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| redbaron303 |
quote:
Originally posted by BlueTurboEGG@Jan 2 2003, 07:27 AM
If you want I can help you with the install for a lunch or something :)
I think the Katz system is a knockoff aswell.
The Katz bulbs have a small ballast "just like the real thing" to help "increase the discharge energy" just like the real thing...
Granted, I have yet to see these things in action, but my bet is that they'll just fall into the catagory of useless.
Just save up for the real thing, you won't be dissapointed :bigthumbup:
ps. I looked through half of my SCC back issues during my holidays, no luck yet on locating that mag... further bulletins as events warrant :)
Damn! Thanks for looking... was it a red ziel motorsports z? that had the conversion?! I remember seeing that in a mag. but I think it was turbo magazine?!
Anywayz, ya true HID's are just bloody amazing! Like i said we have em on the TL and they're great.... I guess from what I've been hearing the universal application is like almost a grand for the lights? Am I far off on this? That would explain why everyone goes with the "ricey blue" bulbs over the real deal.
Geeze since joining this forum... you guys have put too many money "wasting" ideas in my head.... lights, turbos, rims... you name it i'm sure that theres something Iwould like from the category :) |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
No, it was a silver one Z with stock rims, a dual 2.25" exhaust with two Dynomax superturbos side by side at hte back end.
Other wise stock looking... bloody amazing performance...
The Phillips based HID kit is around $850 to $900. But when you consider that the bulbs will last over 5 years easy, money wise, I'd bet my bottom dollar on the longevity of the real thing (which I did)
There is no filament to break like Incandecent based bulbs, just pure light created by electricity arcing between two points :)
And yes, the ricey blue bulbs are just that, good fro looking pretty, not much else. |
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| redbaron303 |
quote:
Originally posted by BlueTurboEGG@Jan 2 2003, 05:17 PM
No, it was a silver one Z with stock rims, a dual 2.25" exhaust with two Dynomax superturbos side by side at hte back end.
Other wise stock looking... bloody amazing performance...
The Phillips based HID kit is around $850 to $900. But when you consider that the bulbs will last over 5 years easy, money wise, I'd bet my bottom dollar on the longevity of the real thing (which I did)
There is no filament to break like Incandecent based bulbs, just pure light created by electricity arcing between two points :)
And yes, the ricey blue bulbs are just that, good fro looking pretty, not much else.
Hmm... i think I may have seen that Z in the magazine if it wasn't too long ago... maybe not?
Ya, those lights will be a summer project once all my guages and BOV's and stuff are paid for. Vision is key to driving at night, without it, why drive! I know my "knockoff" lights are great sometimes, but they're about $50-100 for the bulbs and one has already burnt out and that only took 3 weeks.... stupid fakes!
Do you have a weblink for the lights?
I'm still surprised that they aren't illegal because they aren't factory! |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
The magazine is quite old, but I'll keep looking...
The real HID's are probably legal because they actuallly WORK :)
"Phillips/Osram HID Kits
These HID kits we carry use Phillips Ballasts and Osram 6000k Bulbs. Phillips and Osram are the only two major manufacturers for Orginal Equipment (OE) HID systems for car manufacturers. Phillips works with BMW and Mercedes. Osram works with GM, Audi/VW, and Honda/Acura.
The kits also utilize a plug and play wiring harness for simple installation. Just plug the harness to your original headlight plug, insert other end into ballast, and connect ballast to bulbs. Of course you have to install the bulbs into your headlights first."
Here is the link, although this is the system I have, my light color is purplely/pink :(
http://www.eurospeedperformance.com/lighting.htm |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by redbaron303@Jan 2 2003, 09:20 PM
I know my "knockoff" lights are great sometimes, but they're about $50-100 for the bulbs and one has already burnt out and that only took 3 weeks.... stupid fakes!
Haugh, who got the best of you on that deal? |
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| redbaron303 |
quote:
Originally posted by PearlyWhiteTSI@Jan 4 2003, 09:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by redbaron303@Jan 2 2003, 09:20 PM
I know my "knockoff" lights are great sometimes, but they're about $50-100 for the bulbs and one has already burnt out and that only took 3 weeks.... stupid fakes!
Haugh, who got the best of you on that deal?
Thank god they were in when I bought the car.... :) Otherwise i'd have words for somebody... mind you I only had the car for a month and they'd been in less than a year!!!!!!!!
Hey, thanks Andy! |
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