| dmak_el |
| is it legal to do a engine swap? |
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| albertarc |
quote:
Originally posted by dmak_el@Dec 20 2002, 03:19 PM
is it legal to do a engine swap?
There's a myth out there that some people believe you can't have an engine with over a certain amount of horsepower ... wrong. There is no specifics for HP but where people get into trouble is they sometimes use the entire HP they have on the street doing burnouts etc. As far as engine swaps ... I can't see anything wrong with doing one. I myself have done swaps from small V8s to big V8s etc (sorry guys - haven't done any V6 or 4 cyl yet ... key word is yet). The big concern the laws focus on is safety related items such as lights, glass, tires, brakes etc.
There's a little adage I once heard: "There's no replacement for displacement"
Power - argh argh argh!!!
Jimbo :bow: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by albertarc@Dec 20 2002, 03:38 PM
There's a little adage I once heard: "There's no replacement for displacement"
Power - argh argh argh!!!
Jimbo :bow:
I was brought up with adage ringing in my head.
I have developed my own.
"Technology, the only replacement for displacement".
I still own a '68 Super Bee, 383, 4 speed. |
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| NCC-1701D |
| i think what it comes down to is how big that cylinder, how much fuel and how air you can jam in there is what ultimately gets the most power..so i guess if there was a 5.0l with the same efficiency as a 2.0L than of course the 5.0 will make more power...i think that idea of no replacement for displacement was true until mankind invented vtec........ |
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| Benny |
quote:
Originally posted by NCC-1701D@Dec 20 2002, 11:23 PM
i think what it comes down to is how big that cylinder, i think that idea of no replacement for displacement was true until mankind _invented vtec........
you need to give your head a shake, vtec is brutally overrated and nothing special. Many other companies have been using technology similar to vtec for years befor honda made up that name.
Japanese Motors are amazing, but like posted earlier, if you have the same everything done to two motors, but larger displacement in one motor, larger displacement ALWAYS WINS except at the pumps.
For Example, You cant compare a domestic V8 and a Import I4 cause its like comparing apples to oranges, 2 completely different motors all together. :)
<!--EDIT|Benny|Dec 21 2002, 12:28 AM--> |
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| GTS Jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 12:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NCC-1701D@Dec 20 2002, 11:23 PM
i think what it comes down to is how big that cylinder, i think that idea of no replacement for displacement was true until mankind _invented vtec........
you need to give your head a shake, vtec is brutally overrated and nothing special. Many other companies have been using technology similar to vtec for years befor honda made up that name.
Japanese Motors are amazing, but like posted earlier, if you have the same everything done to two motors, but larger displacement in one motor, larger displacement ALWAYS WINS except at the pumps.
For Example, You cant compare a domestic V8 and a Import I4 cause its like comparing apples to oranges, 2 completely different motors all together. :)
ure missing the point though. for example, a 2.2 vtec lude engine puts out way more desirable power than a 2.2 turbo probe engine...
v-tech ownz j00! haha |
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| Benny |
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R@Dec 21 2002, 01:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 12:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NCC-1701D@Dec 20 2002, 11:23 PM
i think what it comes down to is how big that cylinder, i think that idea of no replacement for displacement was true until mankind _invented vtec........
you need to give your head a shake, vtec is brutally overrated and nothing special. Many other companies have been using technology similar to vtec for years befor honda made up that name.
Japanese Motors are amazing, but like posted earlier, if you have the same everything done to two motors, but larger displacement in one motor, larger displacement ALWAYS WINS except at the pumps.
For Example, You cant compare a domestic V8 and a Import I4 cause its like comparing apples to oranges, 2 completely different motors all together. :)
ure missing the point though. for example, a 2.2 vtec lude engine puts out way more desirable power than a 2.2 turbo probe engine...
v-tech ownz j00! haha
what the fuck were you reading?
quote:
Japanese Motors are amazing, but like posted earlier, if you have the same everything done to two motors, but larger displacement in one motor, larger displacement ALWAYS WINS except at the pumps.
Did you read that, THE SAME ON 2 MOTORS, BUT ONE WITH LARGER DISPLACEMENT!
A 2.3L VTEC should produce more power than a 2.2L VTEC provided they are identical in compression and other regards.
<!--EDIT|Benny|Dec 21 2002, 01:37 AM--> |
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| GTS Jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 01:31 AM
A 2.3L VTEC would produce more power than a 2.2L VTEC
a generalization like that is incorrect. for example, an s2k with a 2.0L vtec produces far more power than the 2.3L vtec found in the accord. there are way too many factors in determining engine output characteristics to use a blanket statement like "no replacement for displacement"
more power, more torque....more of benny getting owned :D |
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| NCC-1701D |
| Benny --> name some examples of vtec like engine found commercially before vtec was patented...if it was so over rated like you say..then why are so many automotive companies today trying to make something similar to vtec?......i guess what you are saying is the formula 1 technology is over rated for street use....correct me if i'm wrong but have you ever driven a vtec at say 5200 RPM to 8200 RPM..? |
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| Benny |
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R@Dec 21 2002, 01:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 01:31 AM
A 2.3L VTEC would produce more power than a 2.2L VTEC
a generalization like that is incorrect. for example, an s2k with a 2.0L vtec produces far more power than the 2.3L vtec found in the accord. there are way too many factors in determining engine output characteristics to use a blanket statement like "no replacement for displacement"
more power, more torque....more of benny getting owned :D
JEFF!!! READ YOU DUMB ****!!!
I'm talking about THE EXACT SAME MOTOR!!!!!!
If you had an S2K VTEC MOTOR Bored out to 2.1, and matched everything up pefectly to same spec comparisson as the 2.0, same compression and everything, the 2.1 would be capable of higher power output!
The Accord motor and S2K motor are completely different, Cant you read! You own nothing but a kick in the junk.
*we talk to each other like this all the time, dont worry*
<!--EDIT|Benny|Dec 21 2002, 10:30 AM--> |
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| Benny |
quote:
Originally posted by NCC-1701D@Dec 21 2002, 02:11 AM
Benny --> name some examples of vtec like engine found commercially before vtec was patented...if it was so over rated like you say..then why are so many automotive companies today trying to make something similar to vtec?......i guess what you are saying is the formula 1 technology is over rated for street use....correct me if i'm wrong but have you ever driven a vtec at say 5200 RPM to 8200 RPM..?
Variable Valve Timing is something that has been around for a long time, and every company has its versions of it. If Honda hadn't patented it, someone else would have. I never said Honda motors suck, they are by far some of the best, what I'm referring to in the "OverRated" statement is now a days you see kids throwing all these VTEC stickers all over thier cars and they have no idea what it does...its over rated, its just a valve timing, the true marvel is the motor its self being able to withstand such high RPM's...comprendé? People get so excited over VTEC...get excited over the motor its self, VTEC isn't a turbo or supercharger, its just VTEC. Yes I've driven a 01 lude up to 8 grand, its very nice, it gives me chills hearing that change in engine tone and being able to rev the fuck out of it like a Ferrari, but its the motor that its truly what should be in the spotlight for being able to handle that as a daily driver. |
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| GTS Jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 10:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff TYPE R@Dec 21 2002, 01:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Benny@Dec 21 2002, 01:31 AM
A 2.3L VTEC would produce more power than a 2.2L VTEC
a generalization like that is incorrect. for example, an s2k with a 2.0L vtec produces far more power than the 2.3L vtec found in the accord. there are way too many factors in determining engine output characteristics to use a blanket statement like "no replacement for displacement"
more power, more torque....more of benny getting owned :D
JEFF!!! READ YOU DUMB ****!!!
I'm talking about THE EXACT SAME MOTOR!!!!!!
If you had an S2K VTEC MOTOR Bored out to 2.1, and matched everything up pefectly to same spec comparisson as the 2.0, same compression and everything, the 2.1 would be higher power output!
The Accord motor and S2K motor are completely different, Cant you read! You own nothing but a kick in the junk.
*we talk to each other like this all the time, dont worry*
Alright, for shits and giggles, let's talk about the "exact same motor", even though you did not originally specify that. In this example, we will use the H series engine found in Preludes. How about comparing the H23A1 (4th gen Prelude SR) which has 160hp, to the H22A SpecS (5th gen Prelude Type S) which has 220hp? The reason the SpecS puts out more power is because of its tuning, not its displacement. As you have now editted your post to include, some other factors include compression ratio, whether the engine is under or over square, flow characteristics and restrictions of the engine, fuel mapping, fuel injector size, combustion chamber properties, etc. There are far too many things things that affect an engine for one to say that bigger is better.
True, all things equal, having more displacement SHOULD increase power, but larger displacement creates its own inherent problems that cannot be solved. Why do you think there's no such thing as an efficient V8? When there is a lot of displacement in the combustion chamer, it is difficult to burn the entire air fuel mixture cleanly. Displacement awards diminishing returns and is simply not practical for street car applications. For this reason, Honda uses VTEC and other technology to make up for small displacement. |
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| NCC-1701D |
Benny --> i wonder if you know what vtec is and what the signifigance of altering valve timing does....Today there are lots of cars with versions of vtec...12 years ago when the first commercailly built N/A car equipped with vtec cam, kept up with cars that had larger displacement and/or turbocharged.....
any car manufacturer can build a car to rev to 9 grand...all that takes is to have all engine internal components lightened and balanced...
the marvel of vtec is this ...vtec increases air to the engine all the way to redline and being N/A..
auto manufacturers had never had a problem with the amount of fuel to squirt into an engine (larger or more jets on carbs,lager injectors on fi)
Benny you forgot the #1 in making power (how much and how efficient the amount of air you can get into your cylinder) |
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| Benny |
I'm sorry, I 100% agree with what you have said, i just dont think we are thinking on the same level, I thought I explained what I thought, but you are just reitterating with what I have said all along I have agreed with. Yes, VTEC is a good replacement for displacement, but will never equate to the raw power that can pe put out of a V8. Jeff, you know how much I dislike american cars, I'm just simply stating that even though the VTEC S2K motor makes an extremely impressive 120hp per liter, thats still only 240hp, and like it or not, thats alot less than something like say a Saleen Mustang. Its going to be alot easier and alot cheaper to suck more power out of that Ford motor than it will on that S2K. Its gonna take a whole lot of Forced induction and money to make thge same power output. Honda chooses to have High Reviing technological marvles, placed in lightweight cars, (Even though the car has less power, it should be faster than a heavier car with a bit more power due to the large weight difference and most domestics choose to have high displacement torque monsters, but weigh alot. But when you are going for maximum power output, the more displacement the better. Look at Nitro dragsters. 6000hp out of a 550-600 CI motor. Yes its big and burns lots of fuel, but it would be impossible to get that kind of power out of a Honda 2.0L VTEC See what I mean? Yes its comparing 2 completely different motors, but I was not arguing that, I was merely saying that in grand terms, there is no replacement for displacement, so in order to make the gap less in size, technology is where its at, be it valve timing, turbos, superchargers, or standalone FMU's.
In daily driving and whatnot, VTEC is an excellent replacement for displacement, although I'm not a fan of the nausiatingly weak torque, its better on gas than driving around a Camaro or something, its an excellent platform for many tipes of racing, BUT on the grand scale of maximum power output no matter what, not HP per L or Efficiency or anything like that, just who can get the biggest number on the dyno no holds barred, displacement always wins. There is always more potential for high HP/TQ numbers from cars with bigger motors. This is what I was arguing.
In daily life terms, the term "There is no replacement for displacement" is not 100% true, but as far as Maximum power no holds barred, its pretty damn hard to overpower a blown big block v8.
For the record I drive a 1.8L 4cyl, and will never own a domestic. |
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| GTS Jeff |
Heh, I find it funny cuz your motor is larger than mine..haha.
Anyway, you know I just like sparring like this on forums...it's all good :D
and btw, Preludes redline at 7000rpm :P
<!--EDIT|Jeff TYPE R|Dec 21 2002, 06:21 PM--> |
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| Benny |
| Not the one I drove |
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