| TrevorK |
Well, I went on a 3 day trip to Jasper and decided to rent a car. I finally settled on grabbing an Accent (Couldn't get any other car I wanted).
When I arrived at Enterprise, I was "upgraded" to a 2004 Echo. Didn't really make a difference to me - I was getting the good mileage I wanted, the options on the car were exactly the same.
Pro's:
- Engine was whisper quiet
- The center cluster. I hated it at first, but now learned to like it.
- Small car - was easy to fit into tight spots
- No mechanical problems - which is normal for any 2004 car.
Con's:
- Lack of power steering. On a modern car, meant to be driven as a typical grocery getter, why would they not have power steering to help in parking lots?
- Completely unbalanced stereo. The bass was boomy and drowned out the high's.
- Squeel developed partway through the trip and stay for the rest of the trip.
- A molding on the front grill fell off.
- Small/skinny tires, made for poorer traction in hills/mountains/curves
- Car had a hard time making it up the hills/mountains in Jasper and keeping up with the speed limit.
- Car seemed to get tossed around on the highway a lot by wind and oncoming vehicles, moreso than other cars I've driven,
- Useless warning lights - there's a low coolant temp. light. I've yet to figure out a use, other than to tell you the thermostat is stuck open. Why tell us this, when the feeling of our balls frozen to our thighs is more than enough warning in the winter?
- Car pulled to the right (I assume this is due to it being a rental car and not maintained, no fault of the car itself)
Now - I'm not unhappy with the car or Enterprise. But what I'm unhappy with is the quality of the car. From what everyone mentions, imports in general (Specifically Toyota and Honda) are always of a much high quality than anything else. Yet I experience problems in my ~1200KM trip that would lead me to believe it is no better than any domestic.
Resale value aside (Which is not a factor in some cases), after this experience I can't believe people can blindly state they are "always better" and "more reliable" than domestics. The Echo I had was of worse fit/finish than my winter beater (Sunfire).... |
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| 96MX6 |
Keep in mind it was a rental. What would you be saying about quality if you rented a 04 sunfire?
I personally hate Toyota styling, damn they are ugle cars. |
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| chu77 |
Ya, I never did like the Toyota family, stick with honda.
But keep this in mind, Many of the base models: Echo, Civic etc are not made with the highest quality becuse of the heavy tax on imports and the need to have the price cheap, I just don't like the "newer" car these days.
Instead Jump in a top model accord and u'll be happy.
Honda Forever!!:blue:
-Henry |
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| n0c7 |
| I'm not here to argue with your points stated, but keep in mind Toyota is the #2 seller in the world just below GM so they must be doing something right... somewhere. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by chu77
Ya, I never did like the Toyota family, stick with honda.
But keep this in mind, Many of the base models: Echo, Civic etc are not made with the highest quality becuse of the heavy tax on imports and the need to have the price cheap, I just don't like the "newer" car these days.
Instead Jump in a top model accord and u'll be happy.
Honda Forever!!:blue:
-Henry
My issue is that the quality of a brand should be evident through all it's models, not non-existant in it's base entries.
The only entry I'd consider for the time being is an entry level one as a beater as I'm more than happy driving around my summer car. With that in mind, I can't see why an import deserves all the credit people give it... |
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| HeavyEarly87T |
What was the mileage on this car?
Did you check air pressure of the tires? Skinny tires will pull when not inflated correctly.
ECHO is not a highway car. It is a cheap city runabout. If you want a good highway machine step up the model food chain a bit and you will see a ton of difference in the travel characteristics.
The theory is that you put a Toyota and a Hyundia side to side the Toy will require less repairs and resell higher after a specified time.
My thoughts,
Url |
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| CryoSlash |
| dont look at the freakin echo. i love toyota and you cant compare the echo with other cars. ITs just a cheap little car for younger/poorer people. Of course its not the best but before you judge the whole lineup, give the others a chance. Just my .02 |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by HeavyEarly87T
What was the mileage on this car?
48,xxxKM when I got ahold of it, 50,xxxKM when I returned it.
quote:
Did you check air pressure of the tires? Skinny tires will pull when not inflated correctly.
I was travelling on a day when Enterprise was closed, which meant I'd have to deal with their US affiliate for roadside assistance if I had a problem.
So I tried to talk to the "mechanic" about the car before I left to make sure everything was in good running order, however he said everything was already checked and is perfect. So I left it at that.
quote:
The theory is that you put a Toyota and a Hyundia side to side the Toy will require less repairs and resell higher after a specified time.
My thoughts,
Url [/B]
I don't disagree it will resell higher - I'm just not sure about the quality of the car over the first 100,000KM. If not 200,000KM. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
With that in mind, I can't see why an import deserves all the credit people give it...
I think it boils down to people having no point of reference. :dunno:
And for the record.... it was an ECHO. To expect it to handle well and not get tossed around by every slight breeze is completely unreasonable. They are human sized dinkies fit for going to the grocery store and then going home. :) |
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| Insomniac |
| It's a $14k car econo box. What did you expect? |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
It's a $14k car econo box. What did you expect?
The same quality my winter beater, a Sunfire, has. Is it too much to ask? |
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| Supra_devil |
for a $14,000 car it IS good quality, the quality isn't based on one standard, keep in mind the cost of the car before saying quality isn't there. Look at a $14G car from many other manufacturers and they will not hold up the same.
48,xxx is a lot of kms for a 2004, keep that in mind, and the fact that rentals get the shit driven out of them. every rental i get we 1) max it out on the highway, 2) do a burn out, 3) floor ot lots while in the city, 4) 4x4ing with trucks. so i wouldn't ever expect that when they've had 48,xxx kms that they would not have issues. |
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| CryoSlash |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
The same quality my winter beater, a Sunfire, has. Is it too much to ask?
and youre saying it has less? I bet that the toyota has the quality of it running to 500+ k that your sunfire will never be able to do. |
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| ae1969 |
I can't believe you took that car on the highway.
My sister has owned one of those for ~3 years.
In comparison a 14K sunfire let alone a 14K hyundai are like BMWs compared to that thing.
- Fit and finish in the echo........ bad. I can't think of a car that had worse finish. Maybe the Hyundai Pony at the time...
- Driveability ......... bad borderline deathtrap. The PONY would do circles around this thing.
- Economy ...... OK. Gas is cheap. Little pieces falling of the car kinda makes the experience a little more expensive.
- Maintenance ........ BAD. I can give you a list of all the little things that fall apart on that thing.
....... Toyota definitely built a bad cheap car. Hopefully the newer ones are getting better.
15K price point is definitely an economy car don't get me wrong.......but why toyota put there name on this...... IT IS BEYOND ME. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Supra_devil
for a $14,000 car it IS good quality, the quality isn't based on one standard, keep in mind the cost of the car before saying quality isn't there. Look at a $14G car from many other manufacturers and they will not hold up the same.
I don't have these problems with my 10 year old Sunfire.
quote:
48,xxx is a lot of kms for a 2004, keep that in mind, and the fact that rentals get the shit driven out of them. every rental i get we 1) max it out on the highway, 2) do a burn out, 3) floor ot lots while in the city, 4) 4x4ing with trucks. so i wouldn't ever expect that when they've had 48,xxx kms that they would not have issues.
That's nice of you to personally drive the shit out of a car that's not yours.
Let me guess - you love to do neutral drops too? |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
I can't believe you took that car on the highway.
Haha - I heard that same thing from so many people. Even more comments when they found out I was going to tour the mountains in it. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by CryoSlash
and youre saying it has less? I bet that the toyota has the quality of it running to 500+ k that your sunfire will never be able to do.
Really?
Prove it. What evidence do you have that an Echo will outlast a Sunfire? Do you know something about the engineering tolerances that others don't?
This is exactly what my post is in reference to - people blindly believe that Toyota = quality regardless of anything else. |
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| HeavyEarly87T |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
That's nice of you to personally drive the shit out of a car that's not yours.
Let me guess - you love to do neutral drops too? [/B]
Bahahahaha.....:owned:
That is the first time I have ever used that smilie and it was well deserved.
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| Insomniac |
| I haven't driven an Echo, but I can't imagine anything being worse than a Jbody. Was it really that bad? Because Jbodies are real pieces of garbage. |
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| Jord@n |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
I haven't driven an Echo, but I can't imagine anything being worse than a Jbody. Was it really that bad? Because Jbodies are real pieces of garbage.
I disagree.
I don't think a J-Body (Sunfire/Cavalier) is that great of a car, heck the engine blew on mine. But they serve their purpose well and are good little cars. My Sunfire has had no problems since I've owned it up until I overheated it and the engine blew. After 200K it is just a timebomb waiting to explode though.:thumbup: |
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| Sxn |
you shouldnt even base your opinion of toyota from an echo.
at least choose a better model made by toyota.
it's kinda like me going to rent a sunfire and saying GM sucks |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Sxn
you shouldnt even base your opinion of toyota from an echo.
at least choose a better model made by toyota.
it's kinda like me going to rent a sunfire and saying GM sucks
Why should I rent a Camry to compare a low-end Toyota to a low-end GM?
I'm not comparing a Camry to a Grand Prix here, I'm comparing base model cars from both. |
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| Insomniac |
Still, a Corolla is a better car to compare with a JBODY than an echo. ECHO and JBODY are different sized cars.
My grandpa has a new corolla. It is underpowered, but everything else is very good on that car.
My sis has a Lexus ES300 (camry) with ~300,000km, it is awesome. It is very quiet, smooth, solid, etc. It made my Wbody of same vintage with 1/2 the mileage look like a complete waste of space.
One of my friends has Toyota 4runner, and another has an Explorer. Again, no comparison. Toyota is much better.
My major gripe with Toyota is that their lineup is boring as hell. They need to bring Scion up here in a bad way. |
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| Jord@n |
| I have never driven an Echo but all other Toyota's I have seen/driven are great. Very few problems and very reliable. I still think J-Body's are alright cars. :dunno: |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
Still, a Corolla is a better car to compare with a JBODY than an echo. ECHO and JBODY are different sized cars.
Bingo. Trevor should've rented a Corolla on that particular trip he took. My wife and I rented a Corolla during a recent trip to Ottawa/Montreal. Its boring as hell but has all the positives he wants and none of those negatives. No quality (or perceived quality) issues.
I can't say that I've even sat in an Echo in recent years let alone driven one. But I can't believe for a second that a Sunfire is a superior car (other than size of course). I had to live with my wife's '99 Sunfire for the last ~ 5 years before we got rid of it and the J-body is one of the biggest pieces of shit around. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
Bingo. Trevor should've rented a Corolla on that particular trip he took. My wife and I rented a Corolla during a recent trip to Ottawa/Montreal. Its boring as hell but has all the positives he wants and none of those negatives. No quality (or perceived quality) issues.
I can't say that I've even sat in an Echo in recent years let alone driven one. But I can't believe for a second that a Sunfire is a superior car (other than size of course). I had to live with my wife's '99 Sunfire for the last ~ 5 years before we got rid of it and the J-body is one of the biggest pieces of shit around.
I would've rented a higher class car, but it didn't matter to me much. Don't get me wrong - it's not as if I wouldn't rent the Echo again, or that it let me down. It did perfectly fine, just not what I expected from Toyota.
I would compare a J-Body to a Corolla, as that's the class they are typically in. However price wise they are in the same class as the Echo, which is what I am concerned with (As I buy these cars for beaters). |
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| Insomniac |
| If you went to the EMDA show, you may be inclined to think that the JBODY and Celica GT were in the same class, since they bring loaded up $25k Jbody's to the Auto Show. Go figure. |
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| Inzane |
The difference is though:
You could trash Toyota based on their entry level car, the Echo (which is what the opening of this thread kinda implied). But then you look at:
Corolla - nice
Camry - nice
Avalon - nice
Tundra - nice
Sienna - nice
etc.
Then take GM:
their entry level -> cavalier/sunfire/ion (forget the redline & SS for a minute), etc. CRAP
Grand Am/Alero/Malibu, etc. CRAP
Grand Prix/Intrigue/Impala/Monte Carlo, etc. CRAP
Astro Van/Transport (whatever the heck they call their minivans now) CRAP
etc.
Get the picture? So far Toyota still wins. :D |
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| Insomniac |
I've rented new Grand Prix, Intrigue, and Grand Am in the last month. The Intrigue suited me the best. I thought it was ok. The Grand Prix was pretty poor.
The Grand Am was the biggest POS. The whole time I was driving it I was thinking of the Grand Am defenders on this website, LOL. How one can drive that car and consider themselves an enthusisast is beyond me.
Am I off topic? or is GM bashing on topic? |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
The difference is though:
You could trash Toyota based on their entry level car, the Echo (which is what the opening of this thread kinda implied). But then you look at:
Corolla - nice
Camry - nice
Avalon - nice
Tundra - nice
Sienna - nice
etc.
Then take GM:
their entry level -> cavalier/sunfire/ion (forget the redline & SS for a minute), etc. CRAP
Grand Am/Alero/Malibu, etc. CRAP
Grand Prix/Intrigue/Impala/Monte Carlo, etc. CRAP
Astro Van/Transport (whatever the heck they call their minivans now) CRAP
etc.
Get the picture? So far Toyota still wins. :D
Why does everyone get caught up in brand loyalty ?
Seriously. Trevors point is valid ....the echo is a sub par car for toyota. You guys seriously need to grab a cup of reality. What are you actually arguing?
He makes some valid points and you throw out the all important crap vs nice argument ???
Ignorance is rampant......... Sad. I never knew the echo had such a loyal following. :D
.........but to follow with the thought provoking argument you started.
Performance:
GM corvette 1
Toyota All combined 0
:thumbup: |
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| HeavyEarly87T |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
The difference is though:
You could trash Toyota based on their entry level car, the Echo (which is what the opening of this thread kinda implied). But then you look at:
Corolla - nice
Camry - nice
Avalon - nice
Tundra - nice
Sienna - nice
So far Toyota still wins. :D
SUPRA - Fruck'n Nice!
But I have not driven another Toyota since my 1975 Corolla wagon.
:dunno: |
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| kyuu |
| If you're comparing all of GM's models to all of Toyota's then Lexus would have to be included with Toyota. And then there's Subaru, which GM owns like 1/3 of last I heard |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Why does everyone get caught up in brand loyalty ?
I don't buy Toyotas or GMs. :dunno:
quote:
Trevors point is valid ....the echo is a sub par car for toyota.
What are you actually arguing?
Agreed. What I was arguing was that:
"If Echo = Crap, therefore Toyota = Crap" is not a valid logic statement.
quote:
never knew the echo had such a loyal following. :D
I never said the Echo is nice.
quote:
Performance:
GM corvette 1
Toyota All combined 0
I agree with that. Which also happens to be one of the main reasons Toyota, at least with their current marketing and philosophy, will never make my shopping list at the moment. The Camry etc. may be nice cars from a quality and refinement standpoint, but YAAAWWWNNNNN so boring. |
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| Kenshin |
ive driven most of toyota's current lineup and ill say that the echo is the worst one of the bunch.
1)its small for tall ppl but good for parking except for the no-powersteering
2)underpowered - pistons are like 2inches wide
3)no direct feel from the gas pedal |
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| Supra_devil |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
I don't have these problems with my 10 year old Sunfire.
That's nice of you to personally drive the shit out of a car that's not yours.
Let me guess - you love to do neutral drops too? [/B]
well actually no, lol, neutral drops are stupid. yes we drive cars hard, but not ludicrously, we just test em to see what we think of their capabilities overall, we don't sit there doing dounts till the tires are bald, or taking them drifting(which i have seen people do). I would never do any of those things to an individuals car, but a company i have no sympathy for, they have very good insurance and paid mechanics for a reason.
Sunfire, well they are decent cars, and they last just fine if people don't drive the shit out of them. However like every other econ-car if they are driven shitless, or not maintained they die pretty quick. I have a friend, his sister has gone through 2 neons, now has a cavalier and has already replaced the motor. Lack of maintenace. I'm not saying anything about brand loyalty, but using a beaten rental as a basis for comparison isn't very accurate.
and yes HeavyEarly87T, he did own me with that comment, i walked right into it. |
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| ehos |
It's easy to see why you're dissapointed. The Sunfire is a MUCH better highway car (more hp/displacement/size).
The Echo is a city runabout. Also, it's too bad you didn't get the Accent. Hyundai has come A LONG WAY :) |
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| Sxn |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
Why should I rent a Camry to compare a low-end Toyota to a low-end GM?
I'm not comparing a Camry to a Grand Prix here, I'm comparing base model cars from both.
u're comparing base models from both?
then it's the aveo vs echo
and from your title, sounds like you're basing toyota's quality from an echo. i never told u to rent a camry.
i'm basically saying what do u expect from an echo? |
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| GTS Jeff |
Trevor, of all the things you've listed, only three points have any bearing with "quality" and are probably attributed to the car being a rental and being bagged on:
- Squeel developed partway through the trip and stay for the rest of the trip.
- A molding on the front grill fell off.
- Car pulled to the right (I assume this is due to it being a rental car and not maintained, no fault of the car itself)
The other points you've listed have nothing to do with quality, they are just related to the price point of the car. Yes, the bass will be boomy on a $15,000 car. In fact, you're lucky it had a stereo at all. And yes, it's underpowered, that's what a tiny engine does. Same goes for the powersteering and the tiny tires. It's a cheap car!
- Lack of power steering. On a modern car, meant to be driven as a typical grocery getter, why would they not have power steering to help in parking lots?
- Completely unbalanced stereo. The bass was boomy and drowned out the high's.
- Small/skinny tires, made for poorer traction in hills/mountains/curves
- Car had a hard time making it up the hills/mountains in Jasper and keeping up with the speed limit.
- Car seemed to get tossed around on the highway a lot by wind and oncoming vehicles, moreso than other cars I've driven, |
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| CanuckDave |
quote:
Originally posted by Sxn
u're comparing base models from both?
then it's the aveo vs echo
and from your title, sounds like you're basing toyota's quality from an echo. i never told u to rent a camry.
i'm basically saying what do u expect from an echo?
yeah, I'd say thats a much better comparison, they are both tiny, cheap cars. A corolla would be the comparable vehicle to the J-Body.
and between the aveo and the echo, the Echo blows away the competition. The aveo is a cheap korean made car.
my sister and brother in law have had an echo hatchback, they got one of the first ones in canada. they live in Ontario, brother in law is a school teacher, so he has to commute on the highway every day, the car has stood up very well to the test. no problems, just regular maintenance to keep it going, and amazing on gas.
for stereos, totally agree on the sound, it was pretty brutal on the stock tape/AM/FM deck they got, but most factory sound systems are nothing special, I pretty much expect that unless I'm paying for something more than an economy car.
I definitely wouldn't drive an echo if I planned on driving on Alberta highways a lot, any ~2100lb car is going to get thrown around a bit by crosswinds.
overall I don't think it'd be bad at all as a daily city driver, with a 5 speed its not particularly slow, 108hp is fine in a car that weighs as little as it does, and the milage is the best i've seen on anything short of a smart car or hybrid.. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
It's easy to see why you're dissapointed. The Sunfire is a MUCH better highway car (more hp/displacement/size).
The Echo is a city runabout. Also, it's too bad you didn't get the Accent. Hyundai has come A LONG WAY :)
That's exactly why I was hoping to get an Accent - I hear nothing but good from friends who have bought new Hyundai's. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by CanuckDave
yeah, I'd say thats a much better comparison, they are both tiny, cheap cars. A corolla would be the comparable vehicle to the J-Body.
and between the aveo and the echo, the Echo blows away the competition. The aveo is a cheap korean made car.
As I've already stated - I compared the Echo to a Sunfire because:
a) I have one
b) It's at the same price point
Obviously the Sunfire is a step up from an Echo, but with both being at the same price point I compare them because if I were to buy one, I would compare based on my budget, not based on what "class" they fit into. |
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| Grandmaster |
I'm a proud toyota owner, but when I showed up at the rental place in victoria and they gave me an echo, I was bummed. I drove that car to Tofino and back. I'll give you the breakdown of what I thought.
Negatives:
not a very powerful motor on the hills (but did anyone expect otherwise?)
pretty ugly
Positives
upright seating provided lots of room (I'm 6'1")
handles well
cheap on gas!! (very useful on the island)
You must have rented on that was mistreated...I actually had a positive experience. |
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| REDX2NV |
I had the echo as a rental twice, made it to ft mac and and back to wandering river on a single tank(700km).
For the mileage you get the do havea bit of zip, whereas you average geo could barely break 100km/hr.
quote:
Originally posted by Grandmaster
I'm a proud toyota owner, but when I showed up at the rental place in victoria and they gave me an echo, I was bummed. I drove that car to Tofino and back. I'll give you the breakdown of what I thought.
Negatives:
not a very powerful motor on the hills (but did anyone expect otherwise?)
pretty ugly
Positives
upright seating provided lots of room (I'm 6'1")
handles well
cheap on gas!! (very useful on the island)
You must have rented on that was mistreated...I actually had a positive experience.
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| bigdawg889 |
| Basing a brand quality on it's lowest base model car, would not be right. If GM, and Ford products were so good, then how come GM is so close to bankruptcy, they have lost so much money in the last year, and Ford is basically in the same boat. In fact the only vehicles they sell are fleet trucks, take away the fleet vehicles and there sales would be totally dead. Toyota has had record profits in the last year, are you people bashing them trying to say that these numbers lie. Domestic cars are dying in sales, the only way they sell cars is to discount them like a Wal-Mart, proof in point the recent employee promotion sales by the big Detroit 3. They have totally killed the values of there cars by doing this, what happens when these so called Wal-Mart discount days are over, then nobody will touch there cars. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by bigdawg889
If GM, and Ford products were so good, then how come GM is so close to bankruptcy, they have lost so much money in the last year,
Here's one big reason.
GM Claims it costs ~$1100 - $1500 US Dollars extra for each car because of health care benefits, which cost $5.6 billion dollars per year.
The import manufacturers do not face this cost - even the ones with plants in the US. Toyota, faced with the threat of a union is already pissing themselves in fear of what it would do - which is a contributing reason as to why Canada can receive their newer plants, because we have universal health care. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
Here's one big reason.
GM Claims it costs ~$1100 - $1500 US Dollars extra for each car because of health care benefits, which cost $5.6 billion dollars per year.
The import manufacturers do not face this cost - even the ones with plants in the US. Toyota, faced with the threat of a union is already pissing themselves in fear of what it would do - which is a contributing reason as to why Canada can receive their newer plants, because we have universal health care.
DING DING DING DING
I love it when I see individuals who actually see the big picture.
:thumbup:
This is a huge reality for U.S auto manufacturers.
The big three are having a horrible time trying to manage this problem.........and it is not going away.
YOu also have Yen vs U.S dollar issues....... a huge array of other complex problems.
EDIT: AND also some of the shitty products they make.
The big three definitely have to work through this.
:blink: This thread has really spun off now ........... but going back to the original posters comment.
Summarized: Echo is not worthy of the Toyota reputation. Does that sound nice enough for the Toyota loyalists ??? |
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| bigdawg889 |
| Okay so they have higher health care costs, but if they sold more cars at a higher cost then it wouldn't be a problem. Blaming the companies problems on the employees is not stating the real problem, the perception that domestic cars are not as good as the imports, and as a result they can't sell them for a decent profit, and in resulting having to discount them at outrageous deals. Lets face it Toyota and Honda are killing the domestics because they dont' have to discount there vehicles like the way Gm and Ford have too. Perhaps the base Toyota Echo is not a glamourous vehicle but whose low cost base vehicle of any brand is going to blow people away. People are not stupid, how many people out there have had mass problems with domestic cars, so they will avoid them like the plague and also tell there friends too also. |
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