| Adam |
I think registered and insured is good enough...you start setting "classes" it'll get messy. How is a guy using n20 on a motor any different than me using a turbo...or my slicks versus an awd car? There are just too many varibles to distinguish from to make it a competitive list. Just because someone has a motor swap, big turbo, nitrous, WI, slicks etc etc...should we exclude that person because he wants his car to be as fast as it can be...I dont think so. We could all do that to our cars, but for whatever reason we dont. So we shouldnt fault someone for having deeper pockets or choosing to go a different route to reach the same goal.
To use the KISS factor we should leave it the way it is...as long as it has a good plate and insurance and its a sport compact...its good for the list. IF its an all out drag car that will eliminate those right away...and if there is a question about it...if someone can show a slip and a video, then maybe they should show their registration and insurance...if its in question.
What we really are trying to determine is who is the FASTEST in Alberta....not who used what to get those times...those distinctions and arguements are meant for setting up classes at a racing event...motor, turbo, nitrous outlaw etc etc.
The list this year looks great...lots of variation and shows a ton of different ways to get a fast car...we should leave it alone.
Pump gas, race gas, turbo, SC, nitrous, DR, slicks, n20, WI. AWD, RWD, FWD....whatever...its your car, your choice how you want to get down the track...live with it. If its FAST, it'll make the list...if it isnt, it wont. K.I.S.S.
.02 |
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| DSM |
| Recording the run is a great idea for proof. And even if the person that made the pass didn't record it I am sure there is someone in the stands that did. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
What we really are trying to determine is who is the FASTEST in Alberta....not who used what to get those times...those distinctions and arguements are meant for setting up classes at a racing event...motor, turbo, nitrous outlaw etc etc.
But the fastest what, exactly. If it's just cars that have run at tracks in Alberta, this year's list is waaaaay down the ladder, obviously. That's why I think we should state which type of fast, exactly, we're measuring.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Pump gas, race gas, turbo, SC, nitrous, DR, slicks, n20, WI. AWD, RWD, FWD....whatever...its your car, your choice how you want to get down the track...live with it. If its FAST, it'll make the list...if it isnt, it wont. K.I.S.S.
What I'd like to see is that the list contain cars that you might actually see driving down the street. That's about it. So someone might have race gas or n20 or whatever on the street, it's definately possible. Slicks might be the only bone of contention but it's really a moot point when drag radials (technically street legal) aren't far off.
I vote for registered and insured (license plate) in Alberta, runs made in Alberta. Seems simple enough to me and I think keeps with the spirit of what the list should be tracking without a lot of overhead rules.
So have we defined what a 'Sport Compact' is? Does a mustang count? |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
But the fastest what, exactly. If it's just cars that have run at tracks in Alberta, this year's list is waaaaay down the ladder, obviously. That's why I think we should state which type of fast, exactly, we're measuring.
It sounds like you may be afraid of some one?????
&
So what if he runs in BC, while he was down there. That is what his car is for & that is why they have a track in BC, so people can come & run there cars.
:( :stickpoke
People should not worry about what other people are doing. They should worried about there own car, & maybe there cars will not be as slow next year.
Come on boys, step it up next year, or just shut up this year....
my .02:drama: |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
But the fastest what, exactly. If it's just cars that have run at tracks in Alberta, this year's list is waaaaay down the ladder, obviously. That's why I think we should state which type of fast, exactly, we're measuring.
I think the intent of THE LIST was for this community. (but its actually a shared list it seems, between V8Less.. ahem, excuse me, 780tuners... and Beyond). A list of members cars of the Alberta import scene/community.
Not sure we should bother tracking people and cars that have just happened to run but have no active involvement in our community of imports/sport compacts, and aren't even registered members of either forum.
Just a thought. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
| Great Job on keeping this list together this year!:thumbup: I think having registration in Alberta means nothing anyway. I could fiberglass, and tube chassis my car run it on Nitromethane, and still registar and insure it (they don't inspect or even look at your car here). I don't like slicks but to say someone's like Z_Fans car or Adam's cars aren't street cars would be crazy too. As far as all out race cars I think they should be on the list but maybe seperated, then again I don't think I have seen one yet that has run a number anyway.:confused: My only contention is why should the run have to be in Alberta as long as it is at a sanctioned track? If you live here, the car is insured here then it shouldn't matter where the run is done. When anyother organization has a record its just that not a record done at this track or not? SCC is still thinking of racing at SIR's so would none of those runs count? I had a chance to race with a limited turn out at SCC this year in Calgray but choose to go to B.C due to a huge V.W. and import night at Mission so should my runs not count? I'm not trying to rehash anything from this year but for seting up the rules for next year I think this should be taken into consideration. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
I think the intent of THE LIST was for this community. (but its actually a shared list it seems, between V8Less.. ahem, excuse me, 780tuners... and Beyond). A list of members cars of the Alberta import scene/community.
Not sure we should bother tracking people and cars that have just happened to run but have no active involvement in our community of imports/sport compacts, and aren't even registered members of either forum.
Just a thought.
I think if an import runs a time but the guy/gal isn't on the forums the time should still count. Thats just me though why have a list for the fastest times then or atleast call it the "780tuners Fastest Times list" then. If my name is on the list I want it to be there because it deservse to be not just because someelse dosen't have internet but does have a fast car. Maybe more people should work on there cars and less on the internet and the times well surely drop this year.:D |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
My only contention is why should the run have to be in Alberta as long as it is at a sanctioned track? If you live here, the car is insured here then it shouldn't matter where the run is done.
My response to that point is -->
How many tracks did you want to add to the eligible list? Every track in Canada (and North America) is at a different elevation and has different track prep conditions/habits. Its enough isn't it that we already have TWO to contend with (Cgy vs. Edm)? You're well aware that timeslips at different tracks can't be compared directly apples to apples without applying correction factors. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I think if an import runs a time but the guy/gal isn't on the forums the time should still count.
I agree to a point and I think that's the way we've been doing it up to now, but the problem with this is there is no sure way to catch ALL of them. It will always be an open, loose list if you don't put any kind of restrictions on it. We're never going to be 100% sure that we've captured the true state of the Alberta import drag racing scene.
However, when cars in this province get as fast as we're talking about people take notice and its unlikely that fast times are gonna go down without SOMEBODY reporting they saw it.
So... :dunno: |
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| Ron@Revolution |
| So what are we using for a correction factor from Calgary to Edmonton? Everyone on here is from what I read under the contention you run faster in Edmonton then Calgary and there is also a 800+ Altitude difference. Top fuel etc.. run at tracks from 5000+ to sea level but any record in top fuel is just that a record for Top Fuel not just a record at that track. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
So what are we using for a correction factor from Calgary to Edmonton?
Nothing at the moment. Should we start? Ack. Its bad enough keeping mind of two different tracks.
I'm just one vote but I say keep it in Alberta. Does anyone care if a car runs 10 seconds in Vancouver? Thats nice and all... But shouldn't it have to run 10 seconds HERE to be considered a "10 second car" HERE? IMO.
quote:
Everyone on here is from what I read under the contention you run faster in Edmonton then Calgary
Correct.
quote:
and there is also a 800+ Altitude difference.
Actually its a ~1300 ft difference (~2200 vs 3500).
quote:
Top fuel etc.. run at tracks from 5000+ to sea level but any record in top fuel is just that a record for Top Fuel not just a record at that track.
Ok, I'll take your word for that. (But do you know for a fact whether their record list contains corrected numbers or not?) |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
It sounds like you may be afraid of some one?????
&
So what if he runs in BC, while he was down there. That is what his car is for & that is why they have a track in BC, so people can come & run there cars.
:( :stickpoke
People should not worry about what other people are doing. They should worried about there own car, & maybe there cars will not be as slow next year.
Yeah I'm shaking in my boots. What? :dunno: So anyways...
You're obviously missing out on the point and possibly trying to troll but I'll pretend like you aren't and spell it out again.
If this is the just the 'fast car list', regardless of where they came from or where they ran, then none of those cars in the 'top10' are anyplace close to being the top anything. Maybe in the top 10,000 someplace.
So, obviously the list is more selective than that. Exactly how selective is what I think we should lay down. So the question, once again, is what _exactly_ is this list supposed to be keeping track of? Fast cars that ran in Alberta? Even then, the current 'top10' would be lucky to be in the top 1,000. 1/4 times from 780 members? Or just times from whoever happens to post no matter what? Do you see how stupid it gets? You need to decide exactly what the list is a list _of_ if you're going apply any sort of meaning to it.
So tell me then, smart guy, before you come off again on a strange confrontational tangent, what the list keeps track of exactly, because it's obviously not just any car anywhere. Please spell it out for me as you obviously seem to 'know' what it is. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I think having registration in Alberta means nothing anyway. I could fiberglass, and tube chassis my car run it on Nitromethane, and still registar and insure it (they don't inspect or even look at your car here).
I think if you've got the balls to run your tube frame fiberglass nitrometh car on the street, registered and insured like that, then welcome to the list. But I think the dangers of running like that pretty much self-regulate the 'amount' of illegal a street car would run. Sure the exhaust might be widened (whoop te do) but that's only a fine... if you're caught with a death trap on the street the consequences will be a bit more severe.
And there are random inspections, I read in the paper a few weeks back that they stopped 100 random cars for safety compliance just outside Edmonton. (And for interests sake, only 1 failed).
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I don't like slicks but to say someone's like Z_Fans car or Adam's cars aren't street cars would be crazy too. As far as all out race cars I think they should be on the list but maybe seperated, then again I don't think I have seen one yet that has run a number anyway.:confused:
I can think of at least one that would no longer be considered a 'street car' that has a time on this list. I guess the deal is, if you can't drive it to the track without constantly being afraid of being pulled over by the cops, it's not a street car. If you wouldn't drive it to work, ditto. I don't expect that all street cars be daily drivers but I think they should be able to be.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
My only contention is why should the run have to be in Alberta as long as it is at a sanctioned track? If you live here, the car is insured here then it shouldn't matter where the run is done. When anyother organization has a record its just that not a record done at this track or not? SCC is still thinking of racing at SIR's so would none of those runs count? I had a chance to race with a limited turn out at SCC this year in Calgray but choose to go to B.C due to a huge V.W. and import night at Mission so should my runs not count? I'm not trying to rehash anything from this year but for seting up the rules for next year I think this should be taken into consideration.
Well that's just the question I'm asking, what is this list supposed to be keeping track of? The 'In Alberta' part seems to be the specifier (obviously this list isn't supposed to be a clone of SCC) but what is it specifying exactly? Runs made by cars owned by people who's majority residence is in Alberta? Runs made by cars that spend most of their time in Alberta? Runs made by cars that are registered in Alberta? |
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| Adam |
Fastest sport compacts in alberta...easy enough.
I really think youre trying complicate things Darryl, its pretty obvious what the list is for. Fastest compacts.
Why mess with something thats working just fine the way it is. Run your car in alberta and see if it makes the list.
I know what the next question will be....but whats a sport compact?
Just leave it all be...its fine the way it is. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
So what are we using for a correction factor from Calgary to Edmonton? Everyone on here is from what I read under the contention you run faster in Edmonton then Calgary and there is also a 800+ Altitude difference. Top fuel etc.. run at tracks from 5000+ to sea level but any record in top fuel is just that a record for Top Fuel not just a record at that track.
Top Fuel runs include any run made at a track within their designated tracks, that's not any different than it would be to say that Alberta tracks are the only ones designated for this list.
To start it off, this is what I would suggest as guidelines:
1. Car must be registered and insured in Alberta.
2. Run must be made at an Alberta track.
And maybe:
3. Car must be driven to and from the track in race form.
Any race form at all is allowed provided you drive it there like that. If it comes on slicks, it races and leaves on slicks, etc. I know this one some people probably won't like but the way I see it, if you drive a street car to the track then change it into a non-street car... it's no longer a street car. Beside, just grab some street radials and forget about it. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Fastest sport compacts in alberta...easy enough.
I really think youre trying complicate things Darryl, its pretty obvious what the list is for. Fastest compacts.
Why mess with something thats working just fine the way it is. Run your car in alberta and see if it makes the list.
I know what the next question will be....but whats a sport compact?
Just leave it all be...its fine the way it is.
Adam, it's obviously not 'obvious', people already we see that some people have different ideas of what the list is. What is 'obvious' to you isn't by rule also the same 'obvious' to someone else.
I'm not trying to complicate it, the fact is it's complicated already. I'm sorry that it is but my bringing it up doesn't mean that I made it that way, I just pointed it out and suggested that we might do something about it.
If it's so obvious, explain it to me. Try to write it out. You'll see, I think, it's not so obvious, and I'm sorry that it isn't but that's not really my fault. I'm just trying to reduce the potential for conflicts next year. |
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| Adam |
I already laid it out..fastest sport compacts in alberta, run on alberta tracks.
Thats how its been for the last 2-3 years. I dont see how there can be any conflict when we have to show a slip, and in some cases video, of the run. There wasnt any squabble this year except for if rons run should be counted...it wasnt and we all went on with it.
AS far as the slicks...I totally disagree as you can imagine...I cant even turn my wheels let alone drive on the street...theyd be worn out by the time I got to the track and at 400 a peice I wont being doing that.
I think messing with it is a big mistake...if you make the arguement for no slicks and ity goes through then I wont submit my times and I'll be done with the list.
My personnal opinion is that you (Darryl) have a problem with the list because you want it to conform with your views on racing...street tires/DR maybe and pump gas. Just because some of us use slicks and race gas does that make us cheaters? In your eyes maybe it does...inm mine no it doesnt, thats racing...do what you have to, to get the car down the track the fastest.
Also, if someone presents a change who has/is the authority to make the change? Zfan, you, me, 780, V8less? Who?
Why fix it if it aint broke? And it isnt because its been working fine now for several years. |
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| Adam |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
I'm just trying to reduce the potential for conflicts next year.
I think you are potentially creating conflicts for next year...not intentionally but I see it happening.
Either way...if the list, for whatever reason, changes to add any more rules to what we already have then I'm out.
People will still know what I ran. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Inzane
[B]Nothing at the moment. Should we start? Ack. Its bad enough keeping mind of two different tracks.
I'm just one vote but I say keep it in Alberta. Does anyone care if a car runs 10 seconds in Vancouver? Thats nice and all... But shouldn't it have to run 10 seconds HERE to be considered a "10 second car" HERE? IMO.
[QUOTE]
So if I run a 10 second pass here then go to B.C I can't say I have a 10 second car???:rolleyes: Excluding people to get up on the list seems like excuses to me. If your from Alberta and registered in Alberta time should count. Talk to any real drag racer and ask them how fast there car runs and they well tell you a number regardless of the track they ran the number on. I'm not saying the way we have it is wrong or right. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I think you are potentially creating conflicts for next year...not intentionally but I see it happening.
Either way...if the list, for whatever reason, changes to add any more rules to what we already have then I'm out.
People will still know what I ran.
Why don't we just adopt a definition from a successful racing league?? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
So if I run a 10 second pass here then go to B.C I can't say I have a 10 second car???:rolleyes:
Now you're just being ridiculous, and going DOWN in elevation not up. If you ran a 10.5 say in Edmonton and go to Vancouver no one there should have a problem with you saying "I know I can run a 10.5, or possibly better". That's not at all the same as running the 10.5 in Vancouver then coming to Edmonton and telling people your car will run a 10.5 there. That 10.5 might actually be a 10.8 (just an example) in Edmonton.
quote:
Talk to any real drag racer and ask them how fast there car runs and they well tell you a number regardless of the track they ran the number on.
I agree, he/she will quote whatever number is the absolute best, regardless of adding any qualifiers (what track, what fuel, what tires, what weather conditions, etc.) to the number. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the right thing to say, but they'll say whatever makes them sound the best to others. And that's only natural I guess.
I agree with Adam on this subject. If I was to go for the shortest quickest route to end this discussion/debate, what Adam has said in his last few posts sums it up pretty good for me. It ain't broke, so don't fix. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I already laid it out..fastest sport compacts in alberta, run on alberta tracks.
Thats how its been for the last 2-3 years. I dont see how there can be any conflict when we have to show a slip, and in some cases video, of the run. There wasnt any squabble this year except for if rons run should be counted...it wasnt and we all went on with it.
The problem is that definition is vague and could (has, in fact) be interpreted differently by different people. Just for the heck of it, would these runs count for the list:?
A mustang/camaro from BC that came in to bud park on a trailer, runs on slicks and race gas and pulls an 8 second pass. What if it was from Alberta? What if it drove in and did a 10 second pass on drag radials?
An LS1 rx7/civic/whatever from alberta that drives in on street tires, swaps to slicks and race gas, and pulls a 9 second pass.
A completely stripped, fiberglass, tube frame skyline running on methanol that comes in on a trailer and lays down a 6 second pass, owned by someone in Alberta but that usually races in the states.
And no, I'm not just pulling those out of my ass, they are each situations that I know could happen this very year.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
AS far as the slicks...I totally disagree as you can imagine...I cant even turn my wheels let alone drive on the street...theyd be worn out by the time I got to the track and at 400 a peice I wont being doing that.
I think messing with it is a big mistake...if you make the arguement for no slicks and ity goes through then I wont submit my times and I'll be done with the list.
I understand completely, and it's exactly my point. I think you would agree then that you don't race a street car? (You say yourself you can't drive it on the street like you do at the track). So, my question is, does 'Fastest Sport Compacts in Alberta' mean street cars or any sport compact at all, regardless if it gets there on a trailer? Does a v8 trailer queen count? Because if they do, we all know our 'top10' spots are suddenly relegated to 'sub100' spots.
I'm not trying to mess with it, I'm saying that it is a mess the way it is, and asking maybe if we should tidy up a bit. Otherwise, it's just the list of 'fastest times submitted to 780/beyond that no one complained about'. And if that's all we want it to be, cool.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
My personnal opinion is that you (Darryl) have a problem with the list because you want it to conform with your views on racing...street tires/DR maybe and pump gas. Just because some of us use slicks and race gas does that make us cheaters? In your eyes maybe it does...inm mine no it doesnt, thats racing...do what you have to, to get the car down the track the fastest.
I knew someone would bring that up. I don't know what I can say to that, other than, no, I'm not. I'm just trying to get some sort of answer as to what the list keeps track of. You are right though, if it were the 'Darryl's List Of Cool And Fast Cars', there wouldn't be any slicks or race gas or n20, but I'm not trying to make this list conform to what I would make, I'm just trying to get some sort of definition nailed down. You can rest assured, I will run slicks on the rx7, and some car might just be pulling methanol. But I _personally_ would consider it a stretch of the imagination to consider them street cars in such form.
Racing is about getting your car down the track the fastest, what you're missing out on I think is that in any sort of sanctioned event, it's 'down the track the fastest _within a given set of rules_'. If it's ONLY about the 1/4 time, as I already mentioned, we may as well give up and go home, we aren't even close to fastest 1/4 time regardless of rulings. So this list is 'Fastest Sport Compacts in Alberta', cool, I'd just like some clarification on what that means, and it already seems to mean different things to different people.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Also, if someone presents a change who has/is the authority to make the change? Zfan, you, me, 780, V8less? Who?
Why fix it if it aint broke? And it isnt because its been working fine now for several years.
Yeah, I gotcha. I asked if we should formalize the entry criteria somehow, and your opinion is no, it's fine as it is. That's cool. But I'm also entitled to my opinion, aren't I? And I'm saying, I think the list is a bit vague as to what gets on and what's excluded (and obviously, there are 1000s of runs excluded from the list), and that if (as zfan suggested) we want to try to get some recognition for the list, what the list includes might be a good idea to be defined someplace a bit more concretely than just 'fast sport compact runs in alberta', because there are different interpretations of what that means.
My opinion is, if zfan is keeping the list, it's ultimately up to him. If he decides the 'Fastest Sport Compacts in Alberta' only pertains to 300s, then I guess I'm out. But I think he's proven to be a level-headed guy that listens to everyone and is a good moderator when conflicts arise, hence he gets my vote of confidence that as list maintainer he'll make good decisions. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
Why don't we just adopt a definition from a successful racing league??
Great idea I think, do you have a suggestion as to one? |
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| Ron@Revolution |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I already laid it out..fastest sport compacts in alberta, run on alberta tracks.
Thats how its been for the last 2-3 years. I dont see how there can be any conflict when we have to show a slip, and in some cases video, of the run. There wasnt any squabble this year except for if rons run should be counted...it wasnt and we all went on with it.
AS far as the slicks...I totally disagree as you can imagine...I cant even turn my wheels let alone drive on the street...they'd be worn out by the time I got to the track and at 400 a piece I wont being doing that.
I think messing with it is a big mistake...if you make the argument for no slicks and ity goes through then I wont submit my times and I'll be done with the list.
My personal opinion is that you (Darryl) have a problem with the list because you want it to conform with your views on racing...street tires/DR maybe and pump gas. Just because some of us use slicks and race gas does that make us cheaters? In your eyes maybe it does...In mine no it doesnt, thats racing...do what you have to, to get the car down the track the fastest.
Also, if someone presents a change who has/is the authority to make the change? Zfan, you, me, 780, V8less? Who?
Why fix it if it aint broke? And it isnt because its been working fine now for several years.
#1 We have a small group of racers.
#2 There is no "Cheating" in racing you do what you want to get the job done.
#3 If someone wants to walk the hard line of defining what a street car is then make two lists one for streetcars and one for race cars
#4 ? is there any Import "race cars" in Alberta that have run?
#5 I am in no way disputing my 10 second passes being on the list this year because it was already in the rules the run had to be in Alberta.
#6 Arguing elevation is going to get into should we then have a Edmonton list and a Calgary list?
#7 There is no right definition of a street car!:asshole:
Just my new two cents, I got to get back to wrenching on the car!:thumbup: So when the real racing begins I well be ready. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
I agree with Adam on this subject. If I was to go for the shortest quickest route to end this discussion/debate, what Adam has said in his last few posts sums it up pretty good for me. It ain't broke, so don't fix.
I'm not even asking for it to be fixed. I'm asking to know what 'it' was in the first place. I guess 'it' can't be broken if 'it' didn't exist in the first place :) |
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| Ron@Revolution |
| I thought the list was top 10 fastest Imports, not top 10 fastest Import Street cars? |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#1 We have a small group of racers.
True enough, but I think we all hope it grows.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#2 There is no "Cheating" in racing you do what you want to get the job done.
Of course there is. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I guess the question is, what is the 'job' you're trying to get done?
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#3 If someone wants to walk the hard line of defining what a street car is then make two lists one for streetcars and one for race cars
As you mention, I don't think we have enough cars racing period to do that.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#4 ? is there any Import "race cars" in Alberta that have run?
Not Import, Sport Compact. I know of one for certain and possibly a few others. It's fine, but then we're really comparing fast street cars to slow trailer queens :)
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#5 I am in no way disputing my 10 second passes being on the list this year because it was already in the rules the run had to be in Alberta.
In alberta means runs in alberta, ok, I'm fine with that.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#6 Arguing elevation is going to get into should we then have a Edmonton list and a Calgary list?
No, I think it's clear this list is Alberta specific runs. It's not clear if the cars/drivers themselves also have to come from Alberta.
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#7 There is no right definition of a street car!
Which is why, IF the list is supposed to be street cars, we would need to come up with one. Or, say it's not limited to street cars. Either way is fine. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I thought the list was top 10 fastest Imports, not top 10 fastest Import Street cars?
Sport Compacts / Import. No one ever said it was street cars or not. That would be why I was asking. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
#4 ? is there any Import "race cars" in Alberta that have run?
Conroy's RX-7 (the white FC) and the Zippy yellow/green Civic are two, off the top of my head. Also that little Mazda (rx-3?) that looks like a race car, smells like a race car, but hasn't run a race car worthy timeslip yet. But you're right, so far its definitely a small field of competition.
quote:
#6 Arguing elevation is going to get into should we then have a Edmonton list and a Calgary list?
The only point I was trying to make (perhaps poorly) was that extrapolating along these lines things start to get ridiculous. |
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| Adam |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I thought the list was top 10 fastest Imports, not top 10 fastest Import Street cars?
Exactly
those examples that Darryl mentioned about the mustang/gtr etc etc coming in...I think those should judeged on a case by case basis...as I think they are extreme cases that 95% of the time wont happen.
I also think that "it" should stay the way it is. If 2 lists are in order...one for street tires, pump gas...so be it.. but I think it'll be darryl on it along with a few mid 13 cars and thats it.
I will agree to Zfan being the mitigator (sp) and decide for all of us what is what. let him clarify what the list is, what it will be and if any changes are needed.
My opinion no...common sense prevails on extreme situations, I mean cmon guys...we're all smart enough to make these otherwise slow cars go fast as hell, and everyone is a contender to be on the list in some fashion, so why confuse it with overbearing rules that will make it less competitive? I know it'll be a hard to do, but I'm shooting for top 6 with my car...I'd be much happier racing 30 fast cars for that spot then 10 because certain rules negate them from this list.
The list is for our community...780 and beyond members...so lets make it stay that way. Otherwise you might get something that looks like this --
http://www.srt4oa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=897
Which I think is pretty useless...theres no competition...even if there was more cars it'll still be no good. I dont want our cars to be on a list like that.
Lets hear what ZFan has to say. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
| I just want to see this 6 second Skyline that we might see this year! Shit I don't think anyone has seen one of those yet.:confused: |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
those examples that Darryl mentioned about the mustang/gtr etc etc coming in...I think those should judeged on a case by case basis...as I think they are extreme cases that 95% of the time wont happen.
Ok, that means the list contains cars that the current members say it can, do I have that right? :)
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I also think that "it" should stay the way it is. If 2 lists are in order...one for street tires, pump gas...so be it.. but I think it'll be darryl on it along with a few mid 13 cars and thats it.
As much as I'd love to have a 'true street car' list (I think I've made my opinions on the matter more than clear :) ), it's not enforceable without some stringent inspections and such that would mean a sanctioning body and workers ($, to be exact). So it's not plausible.
But please don't mind me if I wave my flag over in my corner though and keep making true street trim passes such that the car could be driven coast to coast in that form without a convoy of fuel tankers :). It's just a different philosophy, please don't think I think it's 'better', it's just different. I don't mind one bit running pump and drag radials against a car running slicks and race gas, and I consider it a compliment to be able to hold my own on a list of such cars, even if I don't consider myself to be competing with them, much as others say that I do (and that I'm 'scared'). I guess you either understand, or you don't. *Shrug*.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I will agree to Zfan being the mitigator (sp) and decide for all of us what is what. let him clarify what the list is, what it will be and if any changes are needed.
I think we all agree, Zfan is the man. Go Z. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
I just want to see this 6 second Skyline that we might see this year! Shit I don't think anyone has seen one of those yet.:confused:
Well don't look my direction, I'm the pump gas / radials guy, remember? I was mentioning items in the realm of possibility based on conversations I've had, not listing absolute certainties. Besides, you're missing the point. Would those theoretical runs count? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
As much as I'd love to have a 'true street car' list it's not enforceable without some stringent inspections and such that would mean a sanctioning body and workers. So it's not plausible.
Not to mention you'd probably have a bunch of potential racers back out, refusing to run by your conditions.
Heck even if I was intent to run my car in a pure 91 octane tune at the track, I'd still be tempted to spike the tank a bit because you are ALWAYS faced with some uncontrollable variables while there:
- you're wearing a race helmet over your ears, in an already noisey environment, so you may not be able to rely 100% on your hearing ability to detect detonation, or other problems.
- your car will invariably run hotter while hot-lapping at the drag strip, compared to what your car experiences on the street. Sitting in the staging lanes with a massively heat soaked engine is brutal, especially if you own a car that is particularly bad for engine bay heat to begin with. |
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| Pro Drag |
My personal opinion is that the local (Alberta) sport compact scene has been done a disservice by not having a set of classes/rules adopted for say a 5 year period. That way, those amongst us who are serious about the sport and competing have an equal oportunity to build a car to compete on a level playing field.
I have been checking out a bunch of classes from a bunch of different sanctioning organizations, any one of which could be adopted by us as a community, that would serve to further advance the progress of the sport.
I know of at least 3 people who have held back on building serious contenders (sub 10's) because of their being no level playing field to compete on. Our scene might not be big enough to support it yet, and that's where the 'Tooners/Beyond list comes in handy to keep a running tab, but something needs to be adopted sooner rather than later.
There is no sense of direction that I can see. Right now we have FWD's competing against RWD/AWD, All motor competing against Forced Induction and Nitrous. Any one of us can see which combination of the above is going to dominate and I think everybody who puts forth alot of effort in thier car and wants to compete deserve's some recognition from thier peers. It can be intimidating and disheartening to bring out your pride and joy only to know that you don't stand a chance of making the cutoff for the field because it is one huge field with no parity. The new participants are the future of our sport, any sport has different levels or leagues to achieve parity and fair exciting competition. I don't think a fwd all motor 4cyl up against a rwd/awd turbo 6 cylinder is fair or exciting. |
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| Z_Fan |
Wow!
Ok - I'm going to try to process all of this information and then post something up. But you guys are adding it so fast... :rolleyes:
I'll have some time later tonight to go over it all... |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Fastest sport compacts in alberta...easy enough.
I really think youre trying complicate things Darryl, its pretty obvious what the list is for. Fastest compacts.
Why mess with something thats working just fine the way it is. Run your car in alberta and see if it makes the list.
I know what the next question will be....but whats a sport compact?
Just leave it all be...its fine the way it is.
Great Point Adam :thumbup:
Some people should stop bitch'n & get ready for the spring time.
Also, To: DarrylBleau
I am no troll.
:rolleyes: However, I have been on this site for a wile.... I might not have a fast car for Drag racing. However, if I did, I would not care what Ron ran in BC. IF he ran a 10sec past, well he ran a 10sec past. He lives & works in Alberta, what more can u say.
Maybe when you BUY the right 10/9sec car & have someone drive it for you. You will be on top. (that is what this is all about isn’t it????) However good luck with that… |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
Also, To: DarrylBleau
I am no troll.
:rolleyes: However, I have been on this site for a wile.... I might not have a fast car for Drag racing. However, if I did, I would not care what Ron ran in BC. IF he ran a 10sec past, well he ran a 10sec past. He lives & works in Alberta, what more can u say.
I can say, does the 'In Alberta' part refer to the run, the driver, the car, or all 3? Then I can say, yeah, he ran a fast pass, no disputing it. I said my congrats to him on a job well done and all that. What more do you want? There's all kinds of fast cars all over the place.
quote:
Originally posted by newred
Maybe when you BUY the right 10/9sec car & have someone drive it for you. You will be on top. (that is what this is all about isn’t it????) However good luck with that…
First you say you aren't a troll and then this... who are you?
Whatever. I don't know who you are or what you have against me but I say, good day to you sir. You obviously have no clue. |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
To start it off, this is what I would suggest as guidelines:
1. Car must be registered and insured in Alberta.
2. Run must be made at an Alberta track.
And maybe:
3. Car must be driven to and from the track in race form.
Any
1. Car must be registered and insured in Alberta.
A (1) Well how did you get yout RX7 registered????
2. Run must be made at an Alberta track.
A (2) Who really cares, shit if I ran in Mexico & ran 9sec I still ran a 9et. We might only have one track in Alberta next year (or this spring). Therefore, I say to bad for anybody that lives in Alberta, that cannot or do not have a change to run elsewhere….
3. Car must be driven to and from the track in race form.
A (3) So what happen when your car breaks again & has to be tow away!!!!
:drama: |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
1. Car must be registered and insured in Alberta.
A (1) Well how did you get yout RX7 registered????
Through the proper channels. I had to make some modifications to get it to pass inspections, so I did. No under the table shit, 100% legit. Registered, and insured. Not that it's any business of yours.
quote:
Originally posted by newred
2. Run must be made at an Alberta track.
A (2) Who really cares, shit if I ran in Mexico & ran 9sec I still ran a 9et. We might only have one track in Alberta next year (or this spring). Therefore, I say to bad for anybody that lives in Alberta, that cannot or do not have a change to run elsewhere….
Of course if you run a 9 in mexico then you did. The point is, this list wasn't keeping track of runs outside Alberta. Getting mad for the 'In Alberta' list not including BC runs would be like... getting mad at dsmtimes.org for not including corvettes or something. By your logic, if I bought a car in Florida and ran some crazy times down there I should be able to be listed here. Get a clue man, a list that tracks times 'In Alberta' only tracks times... 'In Alberta'. Imagine that. Now be quiet. The adults are trying to have a conversation.
quote:
Originally posted by newred
3. Car must be driven to and from the track in race form.
A (3) So what happen when your car breaks again & has to be tow away!!!!
:drama:
If it's broken, it's broken. If you aren't breaking things, you aren't pushing the limit. So I guess it would have to be driven to the track and from the track if possible. |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
I can say, does the 'In Alberta' part refer to the run, the driver, the car, or all 3? Then I can say, yeah, he ran a fast pass, no disputing it. I said my congrats to him on a job well done and all that. What more do you want? There's all kinds of fast cars all over the place.
First you say you aren't a troll and then this... who are you?
Whatever. I don't know who you are or what you have against me but I say, good day to you sir. You obviously have no clue.
Sorry I do not mean to be unkind, but of all the cars, you own. How many did you build or you & friends.
Therefore, did you buy that RX7 stock 7 install the 3rotor yourself (or a company)???
What about the Skyline???
Shit you should of bought Marko's White Supra. You would be running 8 or 9sec ET all-day long....
Good Luck in spring I will be looking for YOU to run a good Time.
:bowdown: |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
Sorry I do not mean to be unkind, but of all the cars, you own. How many did you build or you & friends.
Therefore, did you buy that RX7 stock 7 install the 3rotor yourself (or a company)???
What about the Skyline???
Good Luck in spring I will be looking for YOU to run a good Time.
:bowdown:
Bud, I dunno if you need glasses or something, but I (as in, the YOU you refer to above) drove both the rx7 and the talon. So what are you trying to get at, exactly? I hired some ringer drivers?
And I'm through swinging wrenches, I did my time doing that and I'd rather research and select parts and do tuning then tighten bolts. Though I still do when I have to.
So, of all 'my' (subracing) cars, I didn't personally build any of them. No one did. Each one is a collective effort. So what? It's exactly what I'm trying to do. I have a specific goal in mind and I'm trying to reach it.
I'm not a moron, and I know a good deal when I see it. So when I was looking to build a 3 rotor rx7 and came across one that I could buy cheaper then I could get the parts for, I jumped on it. Call me cheap if you want, I call it smart. The rx7 is going to be stripped down to chassis this winter and built from the ground up again. The skyline and rx7 purchases were purely monetary decisions, as a business, you have to do those sometimes. But I'm sure you wouldn't know anything about that.
Now, if you'd like to further this conversation, hit the 'pm' button, because it's far outside the realm of on topic. |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Now be quiet. The adults are trying to have a conversation.
Oh, now don't be like that...
You do make so good points, but also some bad points.
Maybe the list for 2006 shoul be like.
2006
Alberta's Fastest Sport Compact car (Alberta Tracks ONLY)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
2006
Alberta's Fastest Sport Compact car (Outside Alberta only)
1
2 |
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| Adam |
Please dont make this thread go to stupidville....I am enjoying this debate and I want to see an outcome...not a padlock.
:) |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Please dont make this thread go to stupidville....I am enjoying this debate and I want to see an outcome...not a padlock.
Ok, I'm sorry. I usually try to avoid boiling blood.
Back on topic, having a few separate lists might not be a bad idea, as long as they all converge into one master list. It almost went that way this year with the top 10 and the 'honorable mentions'. But I'm not sure there are enough cars, period, to really do that. So I'd probably not vote to do that quite yet.
I don't think anyone wants trailer queens on the list though, so maybe guideline #3 could be modified to 'Car must drive to the track under it's own power' but that race gas / slicks / whatever could be added at the track. And, of course, if you break down at the track no one expects you to fix it there and drive it out. I think that might keep the spirit of what the list should contain. Then the only other question would be, are stangs/vettes/camaros valid to include? If we decide no V8s at all, would say, a GN be valid? |
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| Cody D |
I think there should be ONE list, and only ONE list. I think it should be the fastest Sport Compact Car in Alberta, raced in Alberta (sorry Ron). I also believe that if you push, pull, carry the car to the track and run a fast time, it should still count, this isn't just for street cars.
Sport Compact Car in my opinion is a less than 8 cylinders car, it's not a perfect definition, but I think most people here will accept it. Of course there will be exceptions, I don't consider a GN to be a SCC, but for those exceptions we can come to a common sense agreement. |
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| Adam |
quote:
Originally posted by Cody D
I think there should be ONE list, and only ONE list. I think it should be the fastest Sport Compact Car in Alberta, raced in Alberta (sorry Ron). I also believe that if you push, pull, carry the car to the track and run a fast time, it should still count, this isn't just for street cars.
Sport Compact Car in my opinion is a less than 8 cylinders car, it's not a perfect definition, but I think most people here will accept it. Of course there will be exceptions, I don't consider a GN to be a SCC, but for those exceptions we can come to a common sense agreement.
Agreed on all acounts |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Agreed on all acounts
So what happens if in fact the upcoming incarnation of the Skyline GTR comes with a TT V8?
Sport Compact in my opinion does not include a Supra, Skyline GTR, Viper, Corvette, RX7, etc. Those are sports cars plain and simple.
I do agree with the above however, the common consensus used to be anything smaller than a V-8 and I have no problem with that. A Grand National and even the Typhoon/Syclones aren't V-8's, so should they be hated on?
I don't think so, but right now they are relegated to "exibition class" at any of the events that cater to our cultural scenes. |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Ok, I'm sorry. I usually try to avoid boiling blood.
Back on topic, having a few separate lists might not be a bad idea, as long as they all converge into one master list. It almost went that way this year with the top 10 and the 'honorable mentions'. But I'm not sure there are enough cars, period, to really do that. So I'd probably not vote to do that quite yet.
I don't think anyone wants trailer queens on the list though, so maybe guideline #3 could be modified to 'Car must drive to the track under it's own power' but that race gas / slicks / whatever could be added at the track. And, of course, if you break down at the track no one expects you to fix it there and drive it out. I think that might keep the spirit of what the list should contain. Then the only other question would be, are stangs/vettes/camaros valid to include? If we decide no V8s at all, would say, a GN be valid?
Why should one have to pay to get a tow truck to pick their car up, when they have a trailer at home?
Its costly getting pulled back to the starting of the 1/4 mile when you are at the end of it. I heard it is somewhere around 70$!.
I sure didnt like having to pay someone tow my car home on the last drag day I did. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Ok, I'm sorry. I usually try to avoid boiling blood.
Back on topic, having a few separate lists might not be a bad idea, as long as they all converge into one master list. It almost went that way this year with the top 10 and the 'honorable mentions'. But I'm not sure there are enough cars, period, to really do that. So I'd probably not vote to do that quite yet.
I don't think anyone wants trailer queens on the list though, so maybe guideline #3 could be modified to 'Car must drive to the track under it's own power' but that race gas / slicks / whatever could be added at the track. And, of course, if you break down at the track no one expects you to fix it there and drive it out. I think that might keep the spirit of what the list should contain. Then the only other question would be, are stangs/vettes/camaros valid to include? If we decide no V8s at all, would say, a GN be valid?
Are we making rules to cater to certain people? I'm sure after your problems at the track this year with your cars if you had to drive 5-8 hours to the track you would trailer your car to.:blink: Stay with one list because as in the past no two people are going to agree with what a street car is.:eek: |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
So what happens if in fact the upcoming incarnation of the Skyline GTR comes with a TT V8?
Sport Compact in my opinion does not include a Supra, Skyline GTR, Viper, Corvette, RX7, etc. Those are sports cars plain and simple.
I do agree with the above however, the common consensus used to be anything smaller than a V-8 and I have no problem with that. A Grand National and even the Typhoon/Syclones aren't V-8's, so should they be hated on?
I don't think so, but right now they are relegated to "exibition class" at any of the events that cater to our cultural scenes.
I think that you are right in one way, about the Supra, Skyline & RX7. That they are not sport compact, but with such a small group of them running, what do it matter!!!
In addition, I would not put them in the same class as the Vipers & Corvette. The Supra, Skyline & RX7 still have a lot smaller displacement engine. Than the V8 / V10’s….
With the few cars that even come out the Edmonton or Calgary there is not much used in everybody getting all work up over groups or class. There are only going to be a few that are/ will be looking to be in (11, 10 or 9sec ET.) The rest of the racers or entries are just in to see what there cars will do & to have a little fun with it…. (Much like me & my slow ass Prelude)
Just my 2 cents
Good Luck
I know the price of success, dedication, hard work, and an unremitting devotion to the things you want to see happen.
FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT:
To will is to select a goal, determine a course of action that will bring one to that goal, and then hold to that action till the goal is reached. The key is action.
MICHAEL HANSON: |
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| newred |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
Are we making rules to cater to certain people? I'm sure after your problems at the track this year with your cars if you had to drive 5-8 hours to the track you would trailer your car to.:blink: Stay with one list because as in the past no two people are going to agree with what a street car is.:eek:
Another good point (John would be proud):lol: |
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| Z_Fan |
I'm not going to quote anything specific... ;)
I think for the most part there is actually a general consensus on what the scope of the list should be. There are some elements of the discussion that I believe we can [and should] put a very swift end to. So, let's just do that. This list is meant to be maintained for the sport compact / import community for residents of Alberta - who own registered vehicles in this province and race them at facilities in this province. The inclusion of vehicles from elsewhere, or the inclusion of runs done elsewhere, broadens the scope of the list in such a way that it becomes unmanagable. In addition, the list would become of little or no interest to the group whom its intended to represent. It is a regional list, the audience for which is very specifically the SCC / Import community of Alberta.
Admittably with a little bit of disagreement ... mostly about the types of cars allowed to compete. The sport compact / import class has traditionally included several 6-cylinder cars, including some domestics. However, in virtually all cases the 6-cyl's form the import element of the class. I think it is mostly because these 6-cylinder imports are also compact or small cars. In my opinion, a 6-cylinder mustang, camaro or grand national should continue to be excluded simply because they are not compacts, nor are they imports. So perhaps we can utilize those examples of how to define what is acceptable. Despite the fact they do qualify based upon the less than 8-cylinder criteria alone, they do not meet either of the other criteria. [Not compact and/or not imports.]
Just to pursue the topic of eligible cars a little further, I think we can agree there are three criteria that the cars must meet. The first [1] is 6-cylinder or less. The second [2] is sport compact. The final [3] is import. If the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 criteria, it has traditionally been eligible. Now, I believe the automotive journalists defined this for us in fact and did so a very long time ago. I didn't come up with it. However, traditionally cars such as the Supra TT, RX-7 TT, 300zx TT, and Skyline TT were always considered imports and part of the sport compact class. While we can debate that some of these cars are in fact sportscars, that is really not the point. They are compact vehicles, they are 6-cylinder or less, and they are imports. In fact, they are the only cars that actually meet all 3 criteria, and by that alone it could be argued they are actually the most fitting vehicles to be on the list. Domestics such as the Stealth TT also fit in this same class, yet they are not imports. For the sake of discussion, I feel if the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 expressed criteria, it is eligible. It is for that reason that larger vehicles such as the camaro, mustang, and grand national have been excluded. For they only meet 1 of the 3 expressed criteria. They have 6-cyl (or 6 cyl versions) but they are not compact nor are they imports.
For now I think that element can be put on the back-burner, as Adam has already pointed out, a general consensus on vehicle inclusions or exclusions can be reached.
Elevation advantage and conversion factors. Well, let's pretend we didn't even think about this. Again, IMO it goes beyond what the scope of the list should be. Setting the primary focus as the Alberta community, and therefore in essence limiting eligible runs to Bud Park or Race City, we've effectively contained the available elevation advantage significantly yet we've also successfully given reasonable opportunity for access to equality in track preparation and elevation. [This is simply by the exclusion of other tracks, located in other provinces or states, etc.] It is clear, in my opinion, that the track in Edmonton is better maintained, has a lower elevation, and cars will run quicker at that facility if all other factors are equal. While that may hold true, the nice thing is that Calgary and Edmonton are close enough that if someone feels the perceived advantage of a specific track is worthy of pursuit, then that person has the option of driving to either track to do their runs. Some will say this provides Edmontonians with a distinct advantage for ease of access to a faster track. Yup. Bonus for Edmontonians.
There are no restrictions on tire compound. Pure drag slick, a drag tire such as an ET Street [non DOT], a street legal drag radial or street radials are all acceptable. The reason there should be no restriction on tire compound is the same reason there should be no restriction on drive format. If there is a distinct advantage from slicks over street radials, yet you exclude slicks, then the same theory of advantage of AWD over FWD or RWD should be applied and AWD vehicles would be excluded. There is little doubt an AWD DSM will get out of the hole faster than an equally powered 2WD DSM. Likewise, there is little doubt two stock SRT-4's will see a difference in 60 foot times if one is equipped with OEM and the other with Drag Slicks. These types of elements are part and parcel of racing. As such, I don't feel it would be fair to exclude a vehicle simply because of its drive format or the tires it is using. If one of these elements provides you with what you perceive to be an advantage, then acquire it and use it to your benefit. This boils down to scope. While we are in fact trying to narrow the scope of eligibility, we must fight the urge to narrow the scope so far that list becomes so specific that several lists would need to be kept and we'd eliminate far to many cars to fill out each narrowly focused list.
The primary fuel must be gasoline. The use of high octane racing fuel such as VP103, VP109, etc. is permitted. Nitrous Oxide is also permitted as an additional power adder. An idea here would be to duly note these entries*. However, the use of Nitrous IMO should not automatically mean a car is no longer eligible. Perhaps we should discuss this a little further. I think it should be allowed, but am certainly willing to hear support for Nitrous usage meaning the pass is not eligible. I believe you can not automatically remove eligibility for Nitrous equipped cars. It is simply a power adder, one which may be of great benefit or of little benefit depending on the application.
How you get your car to the track is of little or no concern IMO. If I have a 300KM drive to my nearest track, I might rather jump in my truck and tow my car there. I may wish to run on slicks and have strapped them on at home. If I live 5 KM away, I might risk driving to the track on my slick. Maybe I'm 20+ KM from the track and I'd likely be inclined to put them on at the track if I have no trailer. Simply because I can not afford the luxury of a trailer and tow vehicle for a weekend hobby and don't want to risk destroying my slick and/or getting a ticket. But if I lived 20KM away and had access to a trailer, hell, I'd put my slicks on at home and then go to the track. You can't hope to encompass every individuals specific circumstances with this kind of rule. For some may violate the rule simply for convienence, safety and/or cost reasons [just to name a few.] By levying eligibility requirements such as vehicles having to arrive at the track under their own power you remove the flexibility that needs to be afforded to individuals with such circumstances. Besides, how the car arrives at the track is in fact irrelevant and is a rule also not easily enforced. You'd automatically eliminate vehicles with slicks. That's no good. Push it, tow it, drive it - it doesn't matter. However...
I think what we are really attempting to do with the "no trailer queens" idea is simply to remove a certain type of vehicle from eligibility. And, I actually agree. But the type of vehicle we are attempting to remove is NOT the guy who takes his very quick daily driver to the track on a trailer, so he doesn't have to put slicks on at the track. Nor is the intent to remove eligibility to the guy who has a very long drive to get to the track. No, the intent is to remove purpose built competition drag cars that never see a street. If we institute a rule such as this, we will eliminate people who are not actually the intended target of the rule. I guess what we are attempting to draw here is a line. It's a line between what constitutes a race car from a street car. And that line does need to be drawn, as the list is intended to contain cars you may just see driving down the street. [Not necessarily street legal to all the fine details, but a street car nonetheless.] It's a car you could run into at the next stop light. It's not a car that you can only see at the race track or in the garage where it is maintained. I think we all get the idea...
Ok, so, ideas/comments/suggestions ... |
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| newred |
:bowdown: Good Post :thumbup: :bowdown:
However, there is a find line with the whole Streetcar thing... This is a big topic all over the place & people will always fight over witch is a streetcar or witch is not a streetcar.... I think that this topic is best, left in the closeted...
But all in all, you hit the nail on the head. :thumbup: |
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| Inzane |
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Originally posted by Z_Fan
I think we can agree there are three criteria that the cars must meet. The first [1] is 6-cylinder or less. The second [2] is sport compact. The final [3] is import. If the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 criteria, it has traditionally been eligible.
Finally! Someone agrees with me on this. :D I tried suggesting this for past SCC event eligibility and was inevitably shot down by many.
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Domestics such as the Stealth TT also fit in this same class, yet they are not imports.
This is a bad example. The Stealth is the platform twin of the Mitsubishi 3000GT. It is for all intents and purposes an import... the "Stealth" is more Mitsubishi than it is Dodge AFAIK. Happens to have a domestic badge on the hood. But then so does the Eagle Talon (another platform twin of a Mitsubishi, but via DSM). |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by Z_Fan
[B]
Admittably with a little bit of disagreement ... mostly about the types of cars allowed to compete. The sport compact / import class has traditionally included several 6-cylinder cars, including some domestics. However, in virtually all cases the 6-cyl's form the import element of the class. I think it is mostly because these 6-cylinder imports are also compact or small cars. In my opinion, a 6-cylinder mustang, camaro or grand national should continue to be excluded simply because they are not compacts, nor are they imports.
What is your defintion of a sport compact?
Here is Wikipedia' s definition of a sport compact.
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Just to pursue the topic of eligible cars a little further, I think we can agree there are three criteria that the cars must meet. The first [1] is 6-cylinder or less. The second [2] is sport compact. The final [3] is import. If the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 criteria, it has traditionally been eligible. Now, I believe the automotive journalists defined this for us in fact and did so a very long time ago. I didn't come up with it. However, traditionally cars such as the Supra TT, RX-7 TT, 300zx TT, and Skyline TT were always considered imports and part of the sport compact class.
I disagree.
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While we can debate that some of these cars are in fact sportscars, that is really not the point. They are compact vehicles, they are 6-cylinder or less, and they are imports. In fact, they are the only cars that actually meet all 3 criteria, and by that alone it could be argued they are actually the most fitting vehicles to be on the list. Domestics such as the Stealth TT also fit in this same class, yet they are not imports.
Again, I disagree. Sport compacts are like Civic Sir's, SRT-4's, Mazda Miata's, Toyota Celica's, Chevrolet Cobalt's etc...
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There are no restrictions on tire compound. Pure drag slick, a drag tire such as an ET Street [non DOT], a street legal drag radial or street radials are all acceptable. The reason there should be no restriction on tire compound is the same reason there should be no restriction on drive format. If there is a distinct advantage from slicks over street radials, yet you exclude slicks, then the same theory of advantage of AWD over FWD or RWD should be applied and AWD vehicles would be excluded. There is little doubt an AWD DSM will get out of the hole faster than an equally powered 2WD DSM. Likewise, there is little doubt two stock SRT-4's will see a difference in 60 foot times if one is equipped with OEM and the other with Drag Slicks. These types of elements are part and parcel of racing. As such, I don't feel it would be fair to exclude a vehicle simply because of its drive format or the tires it is using. If one of these elements provides you with what you perceive to be an advantage, then acquire it and use it to your benefit. This boils down to scope. While we are in fact trying to narrow the scope of eligibility, we must fight the urge to narrow the scope so far that list becomes so specific that several lists would need to be kept and we'd eliminate far to many cars to fill out each narrowly focused list.
I agree up until the point that we would eliminate far to many cars to fill out each narrowly focused list. So what if there are only 4-5-6 entrants into each class, it gives the newcomers something to shoot for. I am sure there woud be volunteers to keep lists for respective classes if the need were to arise.
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The primary fuel must be gasoline. The use of high octane racing fuel such as VP103, VP109, etc. is permitted. Nitrous Oxide is also permitted as an additional power adder. An idea here would be to duly note these entries*. However, the use of Nitrous IMO should not automatically mean a car is no longer eligible. Perhaps we should discuss this a little further. I think it should be allowed, but am certainly willing to hear support for Nitrous usage meaning the pass is not eligible. I believe you can not automatically remove eligibility for Nitrous equipped cars. It is simply a power adder, one which may be of great benefit or of little benefit depending on the application.
I agree with the asterisk beside nitrous passes, nitrous is a much bigger fine on the street than a widened exhaust tip, it falls into the realm of dangerous goods handling. You makes your choices you face your consequences, that's all I'm gonna say.
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How you get your car to the track is of little or no concern IMO. If I have a 300KM drive to my nearest track, I might rather jump in my truck and tow my car there. I may wish to run on slicks and have strapped them on at home. If I live 5 KM away, I might risk driving to the track on my slick. Maybe I'm 20+ KM from the track and I'd likely be inclined to put them on at the track if I have no trailer. Simply because I can not afford the luxury of a trailer and tow vehicle for a weekend hobby and don't want to risk destroying my slick and/or getting a ticket. But if I lived 20KM away and had access to a trailer, hell, I'd put my slicks on at home and then go to the track. You can't hope to encompass every individuals specific circumstances with this kind of rule. For some may violate the rule simply for convienence, safety and/or cost reasons [just to name a few.] By levying eligibility requirements such as vehicles having to arrive at the track under their own power you remove the flexibility that needs to be afforded to individuals with such circumstances. Besides, how the car arrives at the track is in fact irrelevant and is a rule also not easily enforced. You'd automatically eliminate vehicles with slicks. That's no good. Push it, tow it, drive it - it doesn't matter. However...
Agreed.
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I think what we are really attempting to do with the "no trailer queens" idea is simply to remove a certain type of vehicle from eligibility. And, I actually agree. But the type of vehicle we are attempting to remove is NOT the guy who takes his very quick daily driver to the track on a trailer, so he doesn't have to put slicks on at the track. Nor is the intent to remove eligibility to the guy who has a very long drive to get to the track. No, the intent is to remove purpose built competition drag cars that never see a street. If we institute a rule such as this, we will eliminate people who are not actually the intended target of the rule. I guess what we are attempting to draw here is a line. It's a line between what constitutes a race car from a street car. And that line does need to be drawn, as the list is intended to contain cars you may just see driving down the street. [Not necessarily street legal to all the fine details, but a street car nonetheless.] It's a car you could run into at the next stop light. It's not a car that you can only see at the race track or in the garage where it is maintained. I think we all get the idea...
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by Z_Fan
The first [1] is 6-cylinder or less. The second [2] is sport compact. The final [3] is import. If the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 criteria, it has traditionally been eligible. Now, I believe the automotive journalists defined this for us in fact and did so a very long time ago. I didn't come up with it. However, traditionally cars such as the Supra TT, RX-7 TT, 300zx TT, and Skyline TT were always considered imports and part of the sport compact class. While we can debate that some of these cars are in fact sportscars, that is really not the point. They are compact vehicles, they are 6-cylinder or less, and they are imports. In fact, they are the only cars that actually meet all 3 criteria, and by that alone it could be argued they are actually the most fitting vehicles to be on the list. Domestics such as the Stealth TT also fit in this same class, yet they are not imports. For the sake of discussion, I feel if the vehicle in question meets 2 of the 3 expressed criteria, it is eligible. It is for that reason that larger vehicles such as the camaro, mustang, and grand national have been excluded. For they only meet 1 of the 3 expressed criteria. They have 6-cyl (or 6 cyl versions) but they are not compact nor are they imports.
I think a mustang would fit the bill as a sport compact, the whole pony car idea I believe was the biggest motor in the smallest car. And if you compare weights with say, the heavyweight 3G eclipse, it's not even outweighed. But that's neither here nor there. No V8s, ok. I would say that the 6 cylinder versions should be included but I'm not heartbroken if they aren't.
The question I would ask, though, is what about an LS1 RX7? And, for that matter, I don't know if anyone disagrees with the 20B RX7 being a sport compact, but we may as well bring it up as well.
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Originally posted by Z_Fan
The primary fuel must be gasoline. The use of high octane racing fuel such as VP103, VP109, etc. is permitted. Nitrous Oxide is also permitted as an additional power adder. An idea here would be to duly note these entries*. However, the use of Nitrous IMO should not automatically mean a car is no longer eligible. Perhaps we should discuss this a little further. I think it should be allowed, but am certainly willing to hear support for Nitrous usage meaning the pass is not eligible. I believe you can not automatically remove eligibility for Nitrous equipped cars. It is simply a power adder, one which may be of great benefit or of little benefit depending on the application.
Well, this is part of the question of what the list is supposed to be tracking. If you're going to allow N20, you may as well go whole hog and allow methanol. And I think you're better off not limiting any fuel or power adder types at all, because if you do, then you have to somehow be able to enforce them, which isn't going to happen in this type of environment. As Ron mentioned, sure I can say I'm running pump gas, but how do you all know I'm not really on 114? (I'm not, BTW, and screw ya, disbelievers you can follow me to the pump next time if you really want).
quote:
Originally posted by Z_Fan
I think what we are really attempting to do with the "no trailer queens" idea is simply to remove a certain type of vehicle from eligibility. And, I actually agree. But the type of vehicle we are attempting to remove is NOT the guy who takes his very quick daily driver to the track on a trailer, so he doesn't have to put slicks on at the track. Nor is the intent to remove eligibility to the guy who has a very long drive to get to the track. No, the intent is to remove purpose built competition drag cars that never see a street. If we institute a rule such as this, we will eliminate people who are not actually the intended target of the rule. I guess what we are attempting to draw here is a line. It's a line between what constitutes a race car from a street car. And that line does need to be drawn, as the list is intended to contain cars you may just see driving down the street. [Not necessarily street legal to all the fine details, but a street car nonetheless.] It's a car you could run into at the next stop light. It's not a car that you can only see at the race track or in the garage where it is maintained.
Yes, that's the idea exactly. I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't use your trailer but I couldn't quite put it as eloquently as you have. A street car, that drives on the street, that's it. Not a tube frame fiberglass shell with a motor.
My personal opinion on what the list should contain is exactly what you've specified here; a car you could run into at the next stop light. However, you aren't ever going to run into a car on slicks at a light... and the no-slicks idea levels the playing field down to allow the v8 mustangs et al. That's exactly the kind of list I'd be interested in, one that truely represents cars you could meet up with at a stop light, in the trim they could be expected to be in, and not limiting the type of car to anything other than something at least quasi-legal. Essentially, I suppose, you'd be making a legalized street-racing list, one with all the same restrictions you would have if you were actually street racing, but without the legal ramifications. And before a moderator jumps on me, notice that I'm not advocating street-racing, I'm advocating legal/safer alternatives to it.
Of course, I understand that not everyone agrees, but IMHO, if you need slicks to go fast, that's a conseqeunce of the platform you choose to run and you should understand that the times you are going to get on slicks won't be representative at all of the times you could expect to run on the street. (in mexico). If I decide to run a 4 cylinder car and a V8 car beats me, that's too bad for me, I choose the 4 cylinder. If I run a RWD/FWD car and an AWD beats me, that's my fault for picking/having a 2WD car to start with. That's my 2 cents. I don't really care if I line up with a slicked up car because they aren't all that different than drag radials. (Yeah yeah, wrinkle walls, yadda yadda, but we're talking miniscule differences here).
Perhaps two lists might be in order, Fastest Alberta Sport Compacts and Fastest Alberta Street Cars, with all runs available to be included in both if they qualified for both, with the 'Street Car' list following the 'any car you could meet at a stop light' mentality. I don't think the 780 community is completely biased, lots of people liked to watch Nathan's camaro run and if he were to run it this year I'd love to see it get some recognition here, and in this type of two-list idea it would. *Shrug*. Just an idea, thought I'd throw it out there and see what people think, before someone tries to tell me I'm on some sort of selfish agenda, no, I'm not planning on buying a mustang or similar, and I can't see how it would be selfish to want to open up a list where I wouldn't be likely to be on it :P |
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| newred |
Oh god, i wish spring was here. Cabin Fever is setting in:loco:
:drama: |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
Oh god, i wish spring was here. Cabin Fever is setting in:loco:
:drama:
Have you ever raced your car at a sanctioned event? What did it run? |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by newred
Oh god, i wish spring was here. Cabin Fever is setting in:loco:
:drama:
Whip out to the winter autox the rx7 club puts on. It's great fun. |
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| Inzane |
WHY would we need to include v6 versions of domestics cars... Mustangs, GN's, etc. ?? Are they the orphan kids that have no where else to go? :dunno:
How far do we go before the list just becomes ALL inclusive? |
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| Ron@Revolution |
Most rules state that it must be an overhead cam based motor and then have some kind of displacment cap.
Now we are talking about nitrous, and gas and tires?:drama: If you do that then make it total street car, no slicks etc.. most people don't want that so lets not even open that can of worms. If you do then all your going to have to do is have an * beside anyone with slicks, nitrous, racegas, etc... Just put a * beside the whole list because most people on the list have 1, 2, or 3 of these things. |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
WHY would we need to include v6 versions of domestics cars... Mustangs, GN's, etc. ?? Are they the orphan kids that have no where else to go? :dunno:
How far do we go before the list just becomes ALL inclusive?
But why would anyone care if a V6 Mustang is allowed to run? It is highly unlikely one would even be in the top 10 so why not let them run?
According to the rule above that you guys like, the Miata in town with the supercharged Mustang 5 litre is allowed to race (It is an import and a sport compact) but some guy with a V6 Mustang isn't because it isn't an import and isn't a sport compact (even though it is about as compact as a Supra). So either way, a 16 second V6 domestic isn't allowed to run, but an easily sub 12 V8 import is allowed to run. It just doesn't make any sense.
I know the biggest domestic haters simply want to keep domestics off the list and don't want Grand Nationals to be able to race. But a V6 Mustang or Grand Am or Grand Prix isn't likely going to make the list so even the haters shouldn't care if they are allowed to run at the events. :dunno: |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
But why would anyone care if a V6 Mustang is allowed to run? It is highly unlikely one would even be in the top 10 so why not let them run?
My hinting at exclusions has absolutely nothing to do with their perceived threat level (competitiveness), or lack thereof.
I'm more about preserving OUR scene. Assuming there is a critical mass of participants at an SCC event, a balance between event enjoyment vs. V8Less profitability (or break-even point, whatever), there is a certain limited amount of spots. People are coming to an import event to see fellow imports race, and to race against them. How many non-import, or non-sport compact (or whatever definition you want to use) do you want to let in?
Once you open the floodgates... Movie Quo | | | |
