| How long do you turbo time? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| beatshack |
Just wondering how long boosted guys are turbo timing.. post the car/turbo and whether its oil or oil & water cooled..
if you're driving hard and turning your car off immediately after... tsk tsk
i usually go for 2 mins even tho its water & oil cooled |
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| qualthar |
Usually I'll take it easy a few minutes before I get to my destination and let it idle for 30 seconds or so.
After some highway or spirited driving I'll let it sit for at least a few minutes to cool down, but I've always been good for not turning it off right away :thumbup: |
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| HeavyEarly87T |
| HKS set to auto the most it has ever wanted after turning off the car was 2 minutes. I have seen it as high as 4 but that was while flogging the car. By the time I get to my driveway or work parking it has droppped back down to under 1.5 minutes. |
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| mwdguy |
get an EGT and watch that .. if your EGT's arent above 600 or so when you get to wherever you are going i wouldnt worry about it.
I actually read an article that with the new oils these days letting cooldown isnt as much of an issue that it once was.
however i still let my cummins idle for a couple inutes if i have been running it hard or a while |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by qualthar
Usually I'll take it easy a few minutes before I get to my destination and let it idle for 30 seconds or so.
Ditto.
Oil and water cooled. |
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| Adam |
quote:
Originally posted by qualthar
Usually I'll take it easy a few minutes before I get to my destination and let it idle for 30 seconds or so.
After some highway or spirited driving I'll let it sit for at least a few minutes to cool down, but I've always been good for not turning it off right away :thumbup:
Pretty much exactly what I do.
quote:
get an EGT and watch that .. if your EGT's arent above 600 or so when you get to wherever you are going i wouldnt worry about it.
I dont know what kind of car youre driving with egts that low. Most cars idle at about 700 - 900. |
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| mwdguy |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
I dont know what kind of car youre driving with egts that low. Most cars idle at about 700 - 900.
Adam,
Its not a car. I am talking about my truck. |
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| Adam |
| Oh...then that makes sense then. My bad:thumbup: |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
Pretty much exactly what I do.
Ditto! |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by qualthar
Usually I'll take it easy a few minutes before I get to my destination and let it idle for 30 seconds or so.
After some highway or spirited driving I'll let it sit for at least a few minutes to cool down, but I've always been good for not turning it off right away :thumbup:
Same but I'm almost never in boost when just going A to B so I don't see the need to idle before shutting her down since taking it easy for the last few minutes has greater cooling effect (air thru radiator/oil cooler) than sitting & heat soaking the rad/cooler.
Water & Oil cooled right here. |
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| RS13 |
Depend on driving
Hard=1.5 mins ish
Easy =15-30 seconds.
the last part of my trip is usually done by coasting (parking spot or garage, down hill road)
Oil and water cooled now. Use to be just oil when i broke a line. |
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| No-Pistons |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
Same but I'm almost never in boost when just going A to B so I don't see the need to idle before shutting her down since taking it easy for the last few minutes has greater cooling effect (air thru radiator/oil cooler) than sitting & heat soaking the rad/cooler.
Water & Oil cooled right here.
the engine really isnt the problem its the life of your turbo |
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| dc2696 |
| I give my diesel 30sec or so |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
| With my Diesel truck.. it depended on how much I was pushing/how often I was in high boost... some times 30sec-min, longest was 4-5min - just oil cooled. |
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| Transporter |
i leave the calculation to Apexi
i set base for 20sec and all i pick is normal or high
which is in regard to my driving style in the city i use normal and and on the track i use high |
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| silverTEG |
30 seconds to 1 min, sometimes longer if i giv'er :thumbup:
turbo is oil and water cooled. |
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| ae1969 |
....as a base line...
My car uses a thermostat controlled timer.
So driving around town...... it will run 30-45 seconds after shutdown.
After driving the car hard it can run 2+ minutes.
What is interesting is that it will shut down after 2+ minutes......and may restart a few seconds later.
The housing retains so much heat that although the coolant has cooled the unit below a certain point.......once the pump stops the coolant temp raises again in the turbo housing so the pump starts again.
I would run that timer a minimun of 2 minutes.
If its accesible you may be better off checking the housing temp with a temp gun to see the actual temps before/during/after running the timer..... |
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| n0c7 |
| 2 minutes anytime unless I'm in a hurry at the gas station or I'm just moving the car out of the garage to the street. |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by No-Pistons
the engine really isnt the problem its the life of your turbo
I don't see the harm in taking it easy for the last few minutes of a drive (read: no boost) that would substitute for idling time when you came to your destination.
In other words, why bother idling when you take it easy for the last bit of driving? |
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| little_one_der |
Woah, i'm surry for this uber newb question... but what do you mean turbo time? Do you let your engine idle so your turbo spools down before you turn off the ignition?
Why? What does it do for your turbo/engine? What happens if you dont? |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
Ok somebody will correct me if I'm wrong.
A turbo timer is a device, somewhat similar to a remote starter, but it does the reverse function, it keeps your car running for a set period of time after you've finished driving. The it turns off the engine.
You don't need a turbo timer, it's just easier or if your in a rush, you don't have to wait. I had a friend who after every drive would have a smoke(take him 5 min to smoke 1) and when he was done,he would turn it off, himself.
The reason for letting the car idle after you'd finished driving, is that your tubo gets really really hot, and if you where to just turn off the car there's a chance that the oil used to lubricate the turbo can cook on the bearings and thus gum it up and potentially wreck the bearings. |
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| 2003specv |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
there's a chance that the oil used to lubricate the turbo can cook on the bearings and thus gum it up and potentially wreck the bearings.
The corect term is coking. Coke is the solid residue remaining when oils undergo severe oxidative and thermal breakdown. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
| Ok... so the oil cooks and leaves coke :D |
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| little_one_der |
| Ahhhh thank you very much. |
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| beatshack |
yeah, i think i have been going a little overkill with my timing... after a solo cruise around the west end, i usually coast around in 5th gear for a few mins before going home.. works wonders on water temp, but i dont have an oil temp guage :(
and i still let it idle for 2 mins before shut down. i think i will shorten it a bit.. |
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| RWD |
air to air intercooler
2-3 mins |
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| mwdguy |
quote:
Originally posted by RWD
air to air intercooler
2-3 mins
has nothing to do with how your trubo cools. |
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| DarrylBleau |
Unless your turbo is only oil cooled, I wouldn't worry about timing it. Excess heat is transfered by convection through the coolant when you shut off the car.
But it doesn't hurt at all to run it for a minute or so if you just ran a hard road course or something just for that added measure of safety (despite that you probably don't really need to). In normal driving conditions I leave mine off entirely, I only turn it on manually if it's been running high-rpm high-boost for some time and I probably don't even need to do that. None of my turbos have ever had any 'coking' problems and I've run quite a few the same way.
If you are only oil cooled, then the story is quite different. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Unless your turbo is only oil cooled, I wouldn't worry about timing it. Excess heat is transfered by convection through the coolant when you shut off the car.
But it doesn't hurt at all to run it for a minute or so if you just ran a hard road course or something just for that added measure of safety (despite that you probably don't really need to). In normal driving conditions I leave mine off entirely, I only turn it on manually if it's been running high-rpm high-boost for some time and I probably don't even need to do that. None of my turbos have ever had any 'coking' problems and I've run quite a few the same way.
If you are only oil cooled, then the story is quite different.
Oil/water cooled turbos can definitely benefit from turbo timing. Convection through the coolant is enhanced when it is actually flowing. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Oil/water cooled turbos can definitely benefit from turbo timing. Convection through the coolant is enhanced when it is actually flowing.
Do you have some sort of real-world or lab experience to back that up? Or are you just making random assumptions? I'm saying that through real-world experience, the convection is sufficient and timing isn't required. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Do you have some sort of real-world or lab experience to back that up? Or are you just making random assumptions? I'm saying that through real-world experience, the convection is sufficient and timing isn't required.
Well it's not a turbo, but my car, if I drive it, shut it off turn the key back to on so the car isn't running but the gauges work, my temp will redline. Also if I go into a store and turn off the car, when I come out and turn it on then temp will redline, then as the coolant circulates it drops down to normal. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Do you have some sort of real-world or lab experience to back that up? Or are you just making random assumptions? I'm saying that through real-world experience, the convection is sufficient and timing isn't required.
No assumptions. Porsche has been doing this longer than both of us.
Thermostat operated cooling pumps on the Turbos...... The only reason to dissipate heat away from there turbos.
So it is safe to say that leaving your car running for X amount of time on a car that does not have a thermostat activated pump would help decrease the probability/extent of coking.
Thermostat activated pumps are just a little more elegant than leaving the car on....... |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
Well it's not a turbo, but my car, if I drive it, shut it off turn the key back to on so the car isn't running but the gauges work, my temp will redline. Also if I go into a store and turn off the car, when I come out and turn it on then temp will redline, then as the coolant circulates it drops down to normal.
Of course. The hottest time experienced by any normally-operating engine is right after you shut it off.
Though redlining, you might have other issues. I'd look into that if I were you. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
No assumptions. Porsche has been doing this longer than both of us.
Thermostat operated cooling pumps on the Turbos...... The only reason to dissipate heat away from there turbos.
So it is safe to say that leaving your car running for X amount of time on a car that does not have a thermostat activated pump would help decrease the probability/extent of coking.
Thermostat activated pumps are just a little more elegant than leaving the car on.......
Sure, the pumps will disperse fluid and thusly it's cooling capacity better. Obviously, or a car wouldn't need a water pump at all. That's not the question. The question is, is it a requirement to avoid coking your turbo? Or will the natural convection of the coolant take enough heat away to make running the car (and thusly, the pump) overkill?
And just because Porsche puts pumps on their turbos doesn't tell us much of anything. At what temp do they turn on? Are they on each time you shut off the key or only in extreme heat situations? What you just said could prove my point exactly, if Porsche doesn't think they need to keep the pumps running every time you shut the car down. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Sure, the pumps will disperse fluid and thusly it's cooling capacity better. Obviously, or a car wouldn't need a water pump at all. That's not the question. The question is, is it a requirement to avoid coking your turbo? Or will the natural convection of the coolant take enough heat away to make running the car (and thusly, the pump) overkill?
And just because Porsche puts pumps on their turbos doesn't tell us much of anything. At what temp do they turn on? Are they on each time you shut off the key or only in extreme heat situations? What you just said could prove my point exactly, if Porsche doesn't think they need to keep the pumps running every time you shut the car down.
The pump will turn run for ~25 seconds minimun even if the car was run for only 10 seconds.
The thermoswitch will then keep the pump running until it hits ~120F at that point it will shut down.
Overkill ? Doubt it... As you well know oil has a tendancy to start breaking down ~250F. The housing on the turbos easily hit these temps even on easy day-day driving. I have verified my temps on my housings before and after on many occasions.... The temp is hot enough to break oil down.
So yes Porsche does think it is a good idea.......... but then it really doesn't tell us much of anything??? They love throwing in useless items into there designs.... :blink:
The technical info for these designs are out there........
The majority of turbo designs do not incorporate this feature not because of proper design but rather cost.
So the comment to the poster was that I feel you should turbo time regardless of lubrication/cooling system. If you are gonna dump upwards of 1500 dollars on a turbo the cost of a turbo timer is nothing. Cheap insurance. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
The pump will turn run for ~25 seconds minimun even if the car was run for only 10 seconds.
The thermoswitch will then keep the pump running until it hits ~120F at that point it will shut down.
Overkill ? Doubt it... As you well know oil has a tendancy to start breaking down ~250F. The housing on the turbos easily hit these temps even on easy day-day driving. I have verified my temps on my housings before and after on many occasions.... The temp is hot enough to break oil down.
So yes Porsche does think it is a good idea.......... but then it really doesn't tell us much of anything??? They love throwing in useless items into there designs.... :blink:
The technical info for these designs are out there........
The majority of turbo designs do not incorporate this feature not because of proper design but rather cost.
So the comment to the poster was that I feel you should turbo time regardless of lubrication/cooling system. If you are gonna dump upwards of 1500 dollars on a turbo the cost of a turbo timer is nothing. Cheap insurance.
Don't Porsches have outside air filtration systems for the passenger compartment and all sorts of 'extras' like that as well? You understand the concept of 'upselling' right?
And the reason I said it wasn't telling us anything was because you didn't explain it. Just saying it has thermo-activated pumps doesn't mean anything unless you explain their operating parameters.
But you are exactly right, let's look to manufacturers for inspiration. There are MILLIONS of vehicles that are turbocharger equiped that don't have turbo timers or fancy pumps and still have super-high life expectancy (think turbo diesels). Fact is, based on real life experience not only from myself but from quite a few turbocharged vehicle manufacturers, turbos will survive just fine without being timed.
A timer is really just another gizmo to add to your car. Don't listen to the hype, of course Apex/Greddy/Etc is going to tell you that you need one, they want to sell it to you. But if you use your own built-in powers of deduction, you can discover the truth on your own.
But hey, if you're paranoid, a timer isn't going to hurt anything. I admit that even I turn on the timer after any sort of high-EGT running. So install it if it makes you feel better, but realize that you are probably doing more for your psyche than your turbo. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Overkill ? Doubt it... As you well know oil has a tendancy to start breaking down ~250F. The housing on the turbos easily hit these temps even on easy day-day driving. I have verified my temps on my housings before and after on many occasions.... The temp is hot enough to break oil down.
Now if the oil and water actually circulated through the housings and not the center section then I could see your point. |
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| beatshack |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
The temp is hot enough to break oil down.
ask the yellow gt-r guy... he liquified his 10w30 into a water-like state somehow |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
.............But hey, if you're paranoid, a timer isn't going to hurt anything. I admit that even I turn on the timer after any sort of high-EGT running. So install it if it makes you feel better, but realize that you are probably doing more for your psyche than your turbo.
:blink:
I think you will find that the majority of Turbo manufacturers (auto/truck) expect/hope that you will wait for the exhaust housings get to ~300F before shut down.
(Since you made the statement and brought up diesels) What the average lay person will read in there diesel manual........
"PLEASE LET YOUR DIESEL IDLE FOR 10-15 MINUTES" before shut down.
The average individual thinks they are letting the car/truck cool down appropriately.......... 20 seconds go by........and they shut down.
I am a little surprised that you think a timer is another gizmo. Let alone one that would be thermostaticly controlled ???
Obviously you don't work in the industries where turbo diesels are used. MANY are being retrofitted with turbo timers. This technology is being heavily used in the motorhome/trailer divisions. The big trucks are slowly starting to adopt the technology. Unfortunately they are normally left running and not shut down as frequently as personal/recreational vehicles so the use on the big trucks is not as big of an issue.
But then again you are well versed in these industries and how turbo timers are being used on these trucks to PROLONG turbo life expectancy...... I have no need to explain this to you.
Guess what the top reasons for turbo failure is on diesels. Uhmmm there are 2 reasons (both probably equally responsible).... but for sake of argument only #1 applies to our discussion. 1. Excessive Heat and 2. lack of Pre-lube.
Now what was Porsche trying to do with there gizmo? Uhmmmm lower housing heat? .... there are ways to calculate heat dissipation rates and how it is improved by flow.........
But I don't think writing a 10 page report will convince you.
Don't assume to know it all. Read.
:rolleyes: |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
Now if the oil and water actually circulated through the housings and not the center section then I could see your point.
The center section was 50-100 degrees lower than the exhaust housing at idle..... . I can't imagine what it would be after a good couple of runs.... I easily maxed out my heat gun on both the center and exhaust side.
Nonetheless you will see very high temps. Anything and everything you can do to pull heat away from the turbo is an improvement.
.... one of the beauties of water is that it is one fastest heat dissipators that we know off. Flow more through it........and faster the heat comes out.
Well not as easy as that...... there is a formula for calculating rate/extent of heat loss...... but you get the idea. |
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| DarrylBleau |
Alex, no one is saying that circulating water doesn't dissapate heat more efficiently than by convection alone. Of course it does. And a 300HP STi will accelerate faster than a 60HP Omni... but they'll both work just fine to get your groceries with. Just because something is 'better', doesn't make it 'neccesary'.
What I was saying, was that convection did a good enough job on it's own. And no, I don't work in the turbo diesel industry, I was refering to acual turbos on sport compact-type cars much like ones that I would expect the initial question to be refering to. And like I said, none of the cars that I've had that went un-timed had any coking issues. I can tell that you've obviously driven timed vehicles and not had coking issues, my question is, have you driven non-timed cars and had coking issues? If not, maybe you should try it before saying that not-timing is going to hurt the turbo.
Or, seeing as you are all lab-equiped and have tested housing temps, why don't you just try it. Idle a car up to temp then shut it off and monitor the housing temp.
And to you as well, don't assume to know it all, there's no substitute to empirical evidence. That average individual that drives and turbo car/truck and doesn't cool it, they're still getting long lives out of their turbos. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by beatshack
ask the yellow gt-r guy... he liquified his 10w30 into a water-like state somehow
Wet? |
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