| '99 Integra - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| SRBURG13 |
What is the maximum horsepower that a non-type R can hold on the stock internals? If you wants to turbo it or SC it, what kind of power could you increase it by without swaping out the internals. PSI??
Thanks |
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| Loose |
I'm going to guess............ about 280 to the ground.
Skinny rods and open deck block = weak
Don't want to run too much boost though on our pee water gas. Optimally tuned I bet you could run 8-10 psi on a stock motor. A more average turbo deal with 7 psi could probably make 220 to the ground.
All number supplied out of my A$$. |
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| WookeysRX7 |
| c'mon! Its an integra! i would say tops like 24WHP! lol j/k :blast: :kill: i have no clue. Nice cars though. Kinda wish i had one but meh rotory is still cool! |
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| JDC™ |
| I hear from a site I used to go to that an LS is good for pretty decent boost and horsepower, perhaps like 300+, .... but check up on that if you plan to do it. |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by WookeysRX7@Feb 12 2003, 03:40 PM
c'mon! Its an integra! i would say tops like 24WHP! lol j/k :blast: :kill: i have no clue. Nice cars though. Kinda wish i had one but meh rotory is still cool!
u'd b surprised at how fast an integra can be
i've read about a lot of integra's bolting on the JRSC using 8psi
& that nets them around 220-230whp (pretty sure on that figure)
i haven't heard of anyone boosting higher than that but i would imagine a person wanting to go to such levels wouldn't be dumb enuf to "try" it on stock internals |
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| luv'n my 7 |
i think it all depends on how much MONEY you are willing to spend! It cost's alot of moolaa to get 240whp thats for sure! But integras are cool, only honda i like next to the s2000!
I'm packin a mack in the back of a ack! |
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| SRBURG13 |
| Cause a friend of mine wants to dump some cash into his Teggie and was wondering wether to SC it or to Turbo it. Which do you think is better (power wise) and safer? I like the turbo more just cause its turbo and it rocks. But I think that the JRSC kit is gonna be more reliable and more of a "bolt on" project. I'm assuming that the costs are in the same range. But I think that the install of a supercharger will be a touch cheaper. Can you front mount intercool a supercharger? I haven't seen that many cars that do that. Maybe its just me. |
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| JDC™ |
| I'd go for the Jackson, it'd be bit different, and no lag |
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| REFLUX |
i'd say JRSC as well
more ppl have done it so there's more support |
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| Nightstalker |
| actually... I would go with the vortec SC... I have have heard some stories about JR products that kinda trun me off personally... I like the sound of a turbo and the upgrade options that come with it.. I guess I am just one of those people that likes to screw around and never really be finished.. thats why I would get a turbo over a SC.. |
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| SRBURG13 |
Nightstalker, I feel the exact same way. I think that Turbo is the way to go. The only problem that I'm concerned with here, is that once the turbo kit is bolted on, the limit is almost there. I'm sure that engine can only hold like like maximum 9psi or so, so the end is near. The problem is the internal swapping which is hella expensive. If he did the internals, and the turbo, he would also have to do a Stand alone or ECU upgrade and a TONNE of other shit to make that thing go good.
Hmmmm, this is a tough one. The SC can also swap out the pulley's and up the boost. I don't know too much about SC's. Can you use a boost controller? Intercooler? Blow Off Valve?
Thx |
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| Nightstalker |
| you can use a boost controler.. I think... don't quote me my info on superchargers is pretty limited.. I know they do make you get shitty gas milage... turbos don't unless you get really big injecters installed... ever thing about getting a ITR or GSR head unit and then getting oil squirters installed ? |
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| nissanz32 |
| I don't know a lot about sc either but I know alot of them use aftercoolers instead of intercoolers. |
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| SRBURG13 |
No we never thought of installing different heads.
Aftercoolers? What the hell is that? Cools the air exiting the car? lol. |
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| Loose |
-aftercoolers are the same as intercoolers
- Vortech kits use Centrifual blowers as opposed to positive displacent like the JRSC. They only make boost at high RPM, therefore have less low end torque. The compressors are much more efficient, so they can make more peak power. For the torqueless B18C, I'd recommend the JRSC blower, unless you're a dyno queen.
-I think turbo has the best compromise of torque and max power potential. They use a centrifugal compressor.
-Since you and your friend appear to know nothing about this stuff, I'd recommend a JRSC cause it's a complete kit, is reliable, and doensn't require as much brains to make run right! :bigthumbup:
BTW, there is a JRSC GSR in Calgary that runs ~14.0@98mph. That's not bad in my books. |
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| SRBURG13 |
Well, I know "stuff", just not about Superchargers, and not about Honda's and Acura's. Turbo's I know enought.
I think we are gonna head for this:
RevHard Stage 2 Turbo Kit: comes all that is needed, including intercooler, fuel filter, fuel pump, BOV, wastegate, manifold and a T304 Turbo, and all the hoses and shit like that.
ACT 6 Puck clutch. Lighten the flywheel.
Apexi N1 Exhaust
And probably go with a Hondata system or something like that.
Am I missing anything? |
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| Nightstalker |
| I know things.. I just don't know everything.. and I don't wana blow BS out my ass.. I would rather I gave the best advice that I could O queen of the Forced induction info :thefinger: |
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| B18C |
I have a JRSC'd teg at 9psi. The fastest I have ran is 14.1@100.67mph at RaceCity. 206whp on a Mustang dyno.
You cannot get a BOV or inter/aftercooler for the JRSC. The closest thing to an intercooler they have is water injection of which I 'm not too conviced at the benefits. There are a couple prototype air-water intercoolers out there but no one has mass produced it yet. Still working out some kinks I think.
My gas mileage is pretty much same as stock. I guess it depends how you drive but the off-boost gas mileage is not bad at all.
The FPR system does suck though and you need to get some ECU piggyback unit (eg. JR MAP controller or Hondata) to prevent tip-in detonation. I personally went with Hondata.
For someone that is not too familiar with FI honda's I would definitely recommend the JRSC. It is literally a bolt-on mod. Also, I was very impressed with their their customer service, and product quality. Hell, does any other company offer a 100,000 mile warranty?
That said, you are not going to get an extremely fast car out of it. Don't get me wrong, a JRSC teg is not slow and is a blast to drive. There's nothing like low-end torque to put a smile on my face but in terms of all out speed....turbo is the way to go. For a JRSC'd teg with all the bells and whistles and tuned properly I wouldn't expect anything faster than high 13's. Maybe mid 13's best case scenario. |
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| Nightstalker |
| eh, just run a 250 shot.. =) that might last about 3 feet on stock internals |
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| SRBURG13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Nightstalker@Feb 14 2003, 04:15 AM
I know things.. I just don't know everything.. and I don't wana blow BS out my ass.. I would rather I gave the best advice that I could O queen of the Forced induction info :thefinger:
"Oh queen of FI info??" Where the hell did I state that? If this was directed towards me, then take it easy there HURK! :angry:
I said I didn't know shit about Honda junk and Superchargers, and that I know "enough" stuff about turbo's. Forced induction queen is hardly what I am. I appreciate the "best advice you can" give, but not he best smart ass comment you can give.
B18C, thanks for the info. I'll have to get to my buddy and talk with him about it. See what his intentions "really" are, and then make a decision.
PEACE |
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| CanadianR |
| I f you want a road racing car or a dyno queen, go for the Vortech, because it makes no power in the low end and is useless for the street. A turbo will definately get you the most power but the lowest reliability. What kind of engine is in the teg? A B18B is a good engine to turbocharge but for a B18C i would probably play it safer and supercharge it. The JRSC can be run at up to 10 PSI quite reliably, if you can get enough fuel in and purchase a few other components. The JRSC is mounted so close (right on) the intake manifold that there is no need for inter or aftercooling, so that would be pointless. The Vortech does come with an aftercooler, i believe, but they only make a kit for the GSR engine(B18C1). If you want to turbocharge it i would say to also get an intercooler. Personally, i would get the JRSC if the car is a GSR, it's easier to install and less complicated to run reliably than a turbo. I would say go turbo if the teg is a non-vtec (B18B). |
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| CanadianR |
| Gas mileage really sucks with a supercharger, but not with a turbo? C'mon that's crazy talk. Whatever method you use to make the car more powerful, whether its turbo, SC, or normally aspirated, will lower your fuel economy. The more powerful the car is, the worse your fuel economy will be. The only mods you can really make for more power that don't decrease fuel economy are intake, header and exhaust etc- stuff that makes the engine more efficient. If you want to run a high boost turbo you'd better get larger injectors. They don't make your fuel economy go way down. If your injectors are too small for the power you're trying to make they're going to be trying to run at 100% duty cycle (stuck wide open) and cause the car to run too lean, which is the worst thing you can do. Larger injectors, when properly tuned, won't be the cause of poor fuel economy. |
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| SRBURG13 |
Yeah his car is a VTEC. So I'm thinkin about sending him towards the supercharger side. I don't think that he is wanting to go that "hard" with the all out turbokit and what not. He can save a little dough and use it towards something else. Who much are those JRSC kits? Roughly?
Thanks again.
PEACE |
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| v8slayer |
quote:
Originally posted by Loose@Feb 13 2003, 03:34 PM
-aftercoolers are the same as intercoolers
- Vortech kits use Centrifual blowers as opposed to positive displacent like the JRSC. They only make boost at high RPM, therefore have less low end torque. The compressors are much more efficient, so they can make more peak power. For the torqueless B18C, I'd recommend the JRSC blower, unless you're a dyno queen.
-I think turbo has the best compromise of torque and max power potential. They use a centrifugal compressor.
-Since you and your friend appear to know nothing about this stuff, I'd recommend a JRSC cause it's a complete kit, is reliable, and doensn't require as much brains to make run right! :bigthumbup:
BTW, there is a JRSC GSR in Calgary that runs ~14.0@98mph. That's not bad in my books.
Remember , It's not the peek power that gives you the good 1/4 mile.
It's the area of total HP between your shifting points that does.
There has been many a case where a lower HP car of equal weight has beat a higher HP car of the same type because it had more usable power all the time instead of just at the end of the rev range.
Chris is right a roots positive displacement pump is the only way to go to fix a engine lacking bottom end torque to start with. :bigthumbup: |
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| ManHunter |
quote:
Originally posted by SRBURG13@Feb 13 2003, 10:02 PM
Well, I know "stuff", just not about Superchargers, and not about Honda's and Acura's. Turbo's I know enought.
I think we are gonna head for this:
RevHard Stage 2 Turbo Kit: comes all that is needed, including intercooler, fuel filter, fuel pump, BOV, wastegate, manifold and a T304 Turbo, and all the hoses and shit like that.
ACT 6 Puck clutch. Lighten the flywheel.
Apexi N1 Exhaust
And probably go with a Hondata system or something like that.
Am I missing anything?
Just remember that installing the hardware is the easy part. Anoybody can do that. Tuning is where you gotta know your shit. Or you'll end up with a big pile of melted metal, no matter if you got a custom setup or a bolt-on kit.
MH |
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| Loose |
There is a Calgary Vorteched B16a. I think it dynoed at ~250 to the wheels, but when it was out at the JB's shootout it went 14.7@95 ish. Shity power band.
My bud with a Vortech blown VR6 Golf even complains about lack of torqe.
I'd go with the JRSC. For prices:
www.google.com is always a good start. I think JR used to sell them for $2850 USD |
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| B18C |
The vortech kit is great on the dyno but can't back it up on the track. Those centrifugal blowers are great for the big v8's but not for little honda's.
The only complaint I have about the JRSC is the fact that you can't get a intercooler for it. My intake charge gets pretty hot and I think every form of FI could use intercooling. |
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| SRBURG13 |
quote:
Originally posted by SRBURG13@Feb 16 2003, 01:29 AM
Yeah his car is a VTEC. So I'm thinkin about sending him towards the supercharger side. I don't think that he is wanting to go that "hard" with the all out turbokit and what not. He can save a little dough and use it towards something else. Who much are those JRSC kits? Roughly?
Thanks again.
PEACE
Ok guys. Someone kick me in the junk. It isn't a VTEC. It's an LS. :pat: So, a consideration of a turbo kit is still in the question. Is supercharging it out of the question completely now? It's ok though, I'm in love with a nice sounding turbo too. |
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| Nightstalker |
quote:
Originally posted by SRBURG13@Feb 14 2003, 08:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Nightstalker@Feb 14 2003, 04:15 AM
I know things.. I just don't know everything.. and I don't wana blow BS out my ass.. I would rather I gave the best advice that I could O queen of the Forced induction info :thefinger:
"Oh queen of FI info??" Where the hell did I state that? If this was directed towards me, then take it easy there HURK! :angry:
I said I didn't know shit about Honda junk and Superchargers, and that I know "enough" stuff about turbo's. Forced induction queen is hardly what I am. I appreciate the "best advice you can" give, but not he best smart ass comment you can give.
B18C, thanks for the info. I'll have to get to my buddy and talk with him about it. See what his intentions "really" are, and then make a decision.
PEACE
I was talking about loose and his comment about us knowing nothing, sorry abour the confusion :) |
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| Loose |
quote:
Originally posted by Loose@Feb 13 2003, 03:34 PM
-Since you and your friend appear to know nothing about this stuff, I'd recommend a JRSC cause it's a complete kit, is reliable, and doensn't require as much brains to make run right! :bigthumbup:
Smiley face = Joke
Sorry to hurt your feelings.
Your choices are still the same with a non VTEC. Check into the Greddy kit too, it seems to be well designed, as a bolt on. |
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| 1mns13 |
Since it's not VTEC I would recommend a DRAG kit. Is this a silver integra? Is it Reed's car?
Jared :fingersx: |
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| Nightstalker |
| sorry, my bad I guess.. and yes.. you left me :crying: for hours :) |
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| SRBURG13 |
Yeah its silver. No it isn't Reeds car.
The prices I saw on the webpages were as follows, give or take a some dollars:
Greddy Kit; is approximately $3300US full retail. The only thing that it comes with that the RevHard kit doesn't is a big intercooler and an FMU. And the intercooler can run up to 1000 dollars.
RevHard Kit stage 2; is approx. $3500 and the stage 2C is $3700 full retail. And they come with the "works", like BOV, intercooler, fuel pump and all that good shit. Thats just my opinion though.
Nightstalker: Not a problem.
Loose: Not a problem. |
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| 1mns13 |
| It'll be fun either way. When working with a not built for boost engine, learning whet to look out for is your insurance. Guages for pertinent info is a must. Boost, fuel pressure and EGT. |
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| B18C |
With an LS you probably won't be happy with a JRSC. They just don't give very good gains. It uses a smaller M45 blower instead of the M60 that comes with the GSR and Type-R kits. Just not worth the money, IMO.
Any way you go, I suggest getting a good engine management system (ie. Hondata or AEM EMS). I'd go with Hondata 'cause I know that we have a good Hondata tuner in Calgary. I think there's a Hondata tuner in Edmonton too (I think he's on this board). |
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| CanadianR |
| B18C: The reason there is no inter or aftercooler for the JRSC kit is because the way it would have to be designed would essentially make it much less efficient, effectively cancelling out any benefits that the cooler would provide. According to Oscar Jackson there is no need for the intake charge to be cooled as the charger is mounted so close to the intake manifold that heat c does not build up much more than in a non-FI setup. I'm sure if it would help much Jackson Racing would have made either an inter or aftercooler for the supercharger, after all, that's more money they could make off us, and that's one of the reasons they're in business. |
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| B18C |
IT would be kinda silly to design a FMIC the the JRSC kit but I've heard of people trying to design a good air to water IC for it. The air to water IC sounds like it might work but I haven't really heard much about them in the past while so I don't think anyone has gotten one to work well at a reasonable price yet.
I disagree on the fact that a JRSC doesn't create much more heat than in a non-FI setup though. I know that when I push my car hard I see intake charge temps of over 190 degrees F (almost 90 degrees celsius) when the outside temp was 13 degrees celsius. I'm not sure but I don't non-FI cars run intake temps anywhere near that.
IMO, every FI car can use an intercooler. |
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| andystar |
your friend could also try a LS/Vtec conversion. I haven't done one myself, but apparently they're not too hard. Then you get yourself a pretty damn tight engine, more torque than GSR, and h/p up there too.
Just a thought. Myself, i would go turbo. They sound so cool. plus, if you're installing a kit on your buddies car (presumably with your buddy) then you guys/he will be learning a bunch, and if he continues to play around with his car, he may learn more and more, then start wanting to play more and more with internals. In such an instance, a turbo setup would be good, b/c he could always upgrade boost if he upgrades internals.. :) :) :)
Oh, i'm not sure why, but for an intercooler to be mounted to a S/C it needs to be REALLY close. The piping needed to use fmic is too long, and effectively cancels out the benefit of the S/C. |
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| CanadianR |
| ls/vtec conversion is a farce. You will NOT have a tight engine OR have more tourque than a GSR, the B18C1 and B18B have the same peak tourque and tourque curve, it's just that where the tourque peak occurs is different. Contrary to what many people say the LS block and VTEC head do NOT fit together perfectly and ls/vtec conversions are not reliable engines. As far as reliability is concerned, a stock B18C1 would be way more reliable than the ls/vtec. The reason the ls/vtec conversion started was back when these egngines first came out and it was way too expensive to be able to purchase an entire GSR engine, so some people came up with the idea to put a vtec head on a B18b bottom end. I have read numerous articles written by people who know what they're talking about and they agreed that the ls/vtec is not a good engine to build as far as reliability is concerned. |
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| monztur |
| I had a jrsc on my 90 si and my gas milage was just as good as before I put it on and that was at 8 lbs of boost. so there....... :bigthumbup: :bigthumbup: |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by CanadianR@Mar 8 2003, 08:39 AM
ls/vtec conversion is a farce. You will NOT have a tight engine OR have more tourque than a GSR, the B18C1 and B18B have the same peak tourque and tourque curve
Well that's why most people consider the b18c1 to be Honda's LS/VTEC, you would get more torque than the original GSR engine, b17a, but the b18c1 is basically an LS block, with a b16 head, Honda's LS VTEC.
You could spend $2500 CAD and be in the 14's, with I/H/E, some crower 403's or 404's, an S-AFC and FPR, and some headwork you'd eat GSR's all day, you could take a Type-R too, it would all come down to the driver. |
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| darkman |
but the b18c1 is basically an LS block
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The B18C1 is not like the LS block. They both have some differences. |
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| CanadianR |
| The b18C and B18B blocks are not the same, they don't even have the same displacement. Check into it, you'll see. May i suggest checking out Team Integra and read their articles. Also the LS block does NOT make more tourque than the GSR block. Check out some dyno plots for the two, they make the exact same peak tourque, its just that the LS powerband comes on sooner than the GSR's. |
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| scooby_dooby |
Ya, I'm very familiar with Team Integra.
I know the block's aren't the same, they're very similar, both 1.8 litre b-series blocks.
Basically your standard ls/vtec(b16 head) is around 175-185bhp, first gen gsr's(b17) have 160, 2nd gens(b18c1) have 170.
Both set-ups have basically the same head(GSR and b16 heads are very similar), it's the LS block that makes the difference.
an unmodded LS/Vtec will hand an un-modded GSR it's ass, no problem. Even with the gay LS tranny.
So you tell me why. |
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| import_3000 |
| i think about 100cc, 150cc at tops |
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| CanadianR |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Mar 13 2003, 12:28 PM
Check out this link: http://www.importreview.com/d_1.8.html
If LS/VTEC is such a "farce" how come the strongest 3 engines are LS/VTEC?
What is that chart supposed to prove? There's a bunch of engines all with different hp numbers. And i'm absolutely sure these are all completely accurate? These hp numbers are not for stock engines are they? 200+ hp out of a GSR is not stock. Besides peak hp numbers don't necessarily mean a strong engine, but you know that. What i said is using stock parts a gsr engine and LS/vtec won't be much different. Now if you want to add on stuff like higher compression pistons and cams etc. that is a different story. The Ls/vtec still is not nearly as reliable as a B18C1 would be, you won't get anywhere near the lifespan out of it that you will the GSR engine. The reason i said it's a farce is because everyone says it's the best engine to build, but in reality it is not as good as everyone says, and isn't nearly as reliable in the long run. There's nothing wrong with building one, but if i was considering building one i would want to know about reliablility before getting it done, just thought other people might too. |
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| scooby_dooby |
well the list just proves the kind of power ls/vtec's put out, all these builds are different, but I don't think it's coincidence that the 3 strongest builds ar ls/vtec.
I misunderstood you though, it is an overrated system, you can get awesome power but it's gonna run at least $4000-6000 for a fairly reliable set-up. Not a farce, but definately mis-understood. |
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| CanadianR |
| I must agree with you. |
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