| Liquid Speed - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| Scintillater |
A friend of mine gave me this energy drink called "Liquid Speed." I haven't drank it yet because I'm actually a little afraid hahaha. It's not legal in Canada, and from what I heard, it tastes like McDonalds orange pop and Aspirin. MMMMM what a wonderful combination!! It's got warnings GALORE on it...like take only half a bottle first to determine tolerance, not to take with ANY other caffeine drink, or anything with ephedrine, or if you have like...100 different conditions....
Anyone else encounter stuff like that? Last thing I need is a cardiac arrythmia from drinking a stupid energy drink. hehehe. |
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| ohboyitsme |
The worst thing that can happen form too much caffeine is diarrea. Ephedrine on the other hand can be risky if you have heart problems.
Does it just have high amounts of caffeine or does it have caffeine and ephedra? |
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| midnite |
| does it say what the ingredients are? |
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| rexxrally |
For every gain, there is a pain.
Unless you have a need, it's best to take heed.
If it's not legal in Canada, perhaps there's a reason why?
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| S2KPWR |
Ephedrine is illegal in canada thats why.
well, over the counter anyways. |
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| dc2696 |
| drink it and hit the ddr!:thumbup: :D |
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| SketchifisT |
Ephedrine has killed 2 pro sports players in the states and has sent many more to the hospital.
Speed / extacy is bad no matter what and they all kinda contrian the same shit, if its not legal dont try it. They all nuke your body some how , so just steer clear |
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| blitz |
| i'll drink it .................. |
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| Markgase2000 |
quote:
Originally posted by S2KPWR
Ephedrine is illegal in canada thats why.
well, over the counter anyways.
Its in most cold/flu pills on the customer side of the counter. Look at the ingredients on cold/flu pills.
How do you think its so easy for meth heads to get there hands on them? |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by Markgase2000
Its in most cold/flu pills on the customer side of the counter. Look at the ingredients on cold/flu pills.
How do you think its so easy for meth heads to get there hands on them?
Well the dextro isomer of ephedrine will be found......pseudoephedrine. It lacks the strong stimulant properties of ephedrine.
.......but it does not take much of a chemist to convert either one to meth.
What is interesting this is an old problem with a new spin.
What is interesting is that meth as a molecule should be colorless......... but thats not what you find. Lots of impurities in the home brewed versions.
You can get a rainbow of colors depending on how you decide to make this garbage. White, Red, Purple etc....
Its amazing what people will ingest......... |
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| S2KPWR |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Well the dextro isomer of ephedrine will be found......pseudoephedrine. It lacks the strong stimulant properties of ephedrine.
.......but it does not take much of a chemist to convert either one to meth.
What is interesting this is an old problem with a new spin.
What is interesting is that meth as a molecule should be colorless......... but thats not what you find. Lots of impurities in the home brewed versions.
You can get a rainbow of colors depending on how you decide to make this garbage. White, Red, Purple etc....
Its amazing what people will ingest.........
Its amazing what people will learn:p |
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| JustinL |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Well the dextro isomer of ephedrine will be found......pseudoephedrine.
Hmmm suspiciously this word rhymes with Sudafed ;) |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by S2KPWR
Ephedrine is illegal in canada thats why.
well, over the counter anyways.
Its legal, the just reduced the dosage allowable per pill. You used to be able to get 25mg tabs, now its 8mg tabs. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
Ephedrine has killed 2 pro sports players in the states and has sent many more to the hospital.
Speed / extacy is bad no matter what and they all kinda contrian the same shit, if its not legal dont try it. They all nuke your body some how , so just steer clear
The cases I'm familiar with were deaths due to exhaustion and dehydration. Its not like you can take a tab of ephidrine and your heart will explode. ;) |
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| bluecargirl666 |
| lol id do it |
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| ae1969 |
Ephedrine can and will kill you.
I have seen enough individuals who have had congenital heart defects who have died with initial doses of Ephedrine. Not common but does happen. Good chance if you end up in Emerg that you may get a shot of Ephedrine or one of its drug relatives...
8mg are unclassified in regards to drug schedules. So you will see these kicking around. I would be quite leary of purchasing any ephedrine via on-line/herbal stores etc. The problem is that other additives can be added to mimic some of the effects of ephedrine. Unfortunately the additives that can be used are usually poisonous..... considering some schmucks like to try and take large amounts of the 8's to make up the difference....... all you end up doing is poisoning yourself.
Larger than 8 mg are available but they are in a restricted drug schedule and can only be purchased from a pharmacist. At this point in time you will be hard pressed to be able to buy any large quantities of this stuff through legal means.
It is really not a good time to be experimenting with this stuff. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Ephedrine can and will kill you.
I have seen enough individuals who have had congenital heart defects who have died with initial doses of Ephedrine. Not common but does happen. Good chance if you end up in Emerg that you may get a shot of Ephedrine or one of its drug relatives...
8mg are unclassified in regards to drug schedules. So you will see these kicking around. I would be quite leary of purchasing any ephedrine via on-line/herbal stores etc.
You talking about getting a shot of epi?
As for deaths, I've yet to see a direct report of a person who took a tab of ephidrine and dropped dead.... and since you are claiming to have seen a number of individuals who this has happend to I'm sure you can back it up because for that to happen in a small area like Alberta would be a huge media story. :) |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by rexxrally
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/base...-baseball_x.htm
http://www.cerebralpalsyinfo.com/deathover.html
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/Organiz.../ephedrine.html
http://www.civilrights.com/mt_foodsups.html
http://www.ephedrine-news.com/
And that's only page 1 of google.com when you type in "Ephredine death".
The first one is the only one that specifically deals with a death and that was due to heatstroke.
Interesting tidbit out of the harvard link:
The 1993 case reports were the result of an investigation initiated in 1991 after a 37 year old male presented with cerebral infarction at the Albuquerque Veterans Affairs Medical Center. The patient had ingested 10 "white-cross" ephedrine tablets daily for weight loss, a dose equivalent to approximately 150 mg/day. A review of records of the New Mexico office of the Medical Investigator 1981 to 1991 revealed a single case of fatal stroke in a 42 year old male who had hypertensive cerebral vasculopathy and a history of taking 10 - 20 white-cross tablets daily (150 - 300 mg/day) for 23 years. On autopsy, evidence of cerebral atherosclerosis, arteriolosclerosis and arteriolonephrosclerosis was found, with blood concentration of 2.7 µg/ml ephedrine.
Considering the average dose would be in the range of 50mg/day.... and the LD50 of the anhydrous ephedrine is in the range of 600mg/kg for rats..... so yeah, 8mg of this stuff if definitely going to kill a healthy person, be afraid. :drama: |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by snugs
You talking about getting a shot of epi?
As for deaths, I've yet to see a direct report of a person who took a tab of ephidrine and dropped dead.... and since you are claiming to have seen a number of individuals who this has happend to I'm sure you can back it up because for that to happen in a small area like Alberta would be a huge media story. :)
Actually a good friend of mine I worked with when I graduated died on a ski hill after taking an ephedrine tablet. She actually did not know she had an enlarged aorta. She basicly dropped dead on the hill. That is the reality. It was definitely an eye opener.
Can someone die from one pill. Sure. Is it common ........no. It is possible to die from one pill of anything actually......
I have seen 3 other cases of indivuals who have used ephedrine containing products that ended up with seizures, stroke and the last died.
The problem is that a lot of these products are available through a variety of different names (Ma huang, yohimbe, chinese herbal mix etc..et.c... The dosing is not standardized in the herbal market and can be quite dangerous.
Most of the health food stores should not have any ephedra containing products on the shelf at this point but you still get a number of new products that squeeze through and end up for sale.
The dilemna is that NO one can guarantee the dose of ephedrine containing compound unless it has a din number and is approved for sale by HPB.
That is the reality. So if you take a pill from someone that says its an 8 mg tablet. Go ahead........ have fun. There is nothing you can do to verify that it is an 8 mg tablet or a 100 mg.
Its russian roulet at its finest.
Enjoy! |
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| shorti |
| post the ingredients |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by shorti
post the ingredients
Post the ingredients?
You will be hard pressed to find a product monograph with any accuracy on any herbal product......let alone any product that may be imported from overseas that is not approved for sale by HPB (health protection branch). There is no regulatory agency responsible for herbal supplements.
Although this may change in the near future. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
http://www.vitamin-supplement.net/v...d-45947137.html
2135 mg of :dunno:
Tough call.
Thats the dilemna........ They are not bound by any regulatory agencies........They are not obliged to list any/or all of the ingredients. The funny thing is that the amounts don't even have to be what they list....
On the other hand you could pull any pharmaceutical (with a valid DIN) off the shelf and you could find out every possible active ingredient concentration and additive/binders etc's they use. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
Can someone die from one pill. Sure. Is it common ........no. It is possible to die from one pill of anything actually......
The problem is that a lot of these products are available through a variety of different names (Ma huang, yohimbe, chinese herbal mix etc..et.c... The dosing is not standardized in the herbal market and can be quite dangerous.
Most of the health food stores should not have any ephedra containing products on the shelf at this point but you still get a number of new products that squeeze through and end up for sale.
Its russian roulet at its finest.
Enjoy!
Russian Roulette? :drama:
lol, better lock yourself indoors and never leave your bed then. As you said, if somebody has a pre-existing condition or allergy they could be killed by one tab of just about anything, so does this mean that we must ban everything and be afraid of everything?
Tell me if I'm completely wrong here, but I don't get the general impression that you have much (if any) personal experience using these products..... wouldn't want to play that nasty "russian roulette".
And for the record, Ma Huang is not the same as Yohimbe. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by clapbak
http://www.vitamin-supplement.net/v...d-45947137.html
Its that dymatize stuff. rotfl, yup that'll make your head explode for sure. :lol:
its pretty similar to red bull, no worries, they make claims like that 1/2 bottle thing so kids get excited about taking it and random people will get worked up and scared.... oooo, must be dangerous. :lol:
But seriously, if you don't use products like that regularly its always advisable to take a 1/2 dose to ensure that you aren't overly sensitive. Just common sense when using something new. :thumbup: |
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| ae1969 |
Snugs
I am very well aware on how these products work.... (Yes I know the differences between Ma huang and yohimbe). The point is that you can find ephedra in MANY yohimbe extracts (just one of my undergrad projects FYI). I guess you knew that as well. That is the point I was trying to make. Labelling of the herbal market does not guarantee what is on the label. NO guarantee. Nada....zippo........zilcho.
I think the dilemna is that the lay public. You included have no clue what is actually involved in getting a 'real' product to market.
I am always amazed when someone tries to rely on 'just use common sense' when using a herbal/performance enhancing product?
What are you basing your dosing on? What the company says? Anecdotal? What your buddy has used for the last 3 years and hasn't burst a blood vessel?
What lot # and production run was that supplement made? Do they routinely pull batches to look for fungal/bacterial growths? Have you ever had a recall on herbal/body building supplements? Do they even check whats in the bottle thats sitting on the shelf for 6 months before shipping?
The point I am trying to make for everyone............If someone on the internet like 'snugs' says its safe.......DOes not make it so?
Thats the reality.
No smokes and mirrors.......facts are facts. Herbal/body building supplements have no standardization or studies to backup anything they say. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
The point I am trying to make for everyone............If someone on the internet like 'snugs' says its safe.......DOes not make it so?
Thats the reality.
And when somebody says its going to kill you and you're playing "russian roulette" when you take an 8mg tab from a product with a din number..... well does it make it so?
I'm well aware of the issues with the labelling of "supplements", but the reality is that unless somebody has a gross unknown personal sensitivity or physical defect the dose that they will get from any of these types of products is nowhere near the level that will harm them. That's the reality. Leave the drama and the scare tactics to Ricky Lake.
...you still didn't tell me what your track record is with these types of products. How many years have you used them, what was the max dose you ever took, what were the sides and how intense did you note them as you varied the dose, what was your blood work like, etc, etc, etc.... |
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| Markgase2000 |
That speed stuff has simular ingedients as Monster.
Monster is the strongest I found out here. I had some trouble cus of my own stupidity. I drank monster with Vodka. After 2 cans I had a panic attack. My breathing increased and my heart raced. I was pretty damn dizzy. Learned my lesson!
Without the alchohol Drinking these was fine for me. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by snugs
And when somebody says its going to kill you and you're playing "russian roulette" when you take an 8mg tab from a product with a din number..... well does it make it so?
I'm well aware of the issues with the labelling of "supplements", but the reality is that unless somebody has a gross unknown personal sensitivity or physical defect the dose that they will get from any of these types of products is nowhere near the level that will harm them. That's the reality. Leave the drama and the scare tactics to Ricky Lake.
...you still didn't tell me what your track record is with these types of products. How many years have you used them, what was the max dose you ever took, what were the sides and how intense did you note them as you varied the dose, what was your blood work like, etc, etc, etc....
? I think we are getting of track?
I would like to keep the discussion informative for everyone.
Lets separate some issues.
Maybe I should re-state my points that may have gotten lost?
1. 8 mg of Ephedrine from a pharmaceutical source with an appropriate DIN will not normally kill you. Not exactly sure where you read that from me. Now for those looking to performance enhance, they are not normally looking for 8mg hence the inherent dangers that arise when individuals are looking for larger doses to improve performance.
2. An illicit source of Ephedrine that has no appropriate DIN labelled 8 mg/ 25 mg or 100 mg. You have no way of knowing what you are actually getting. This can kill you. This can include a number of products that have in the past been distributed through health stores. The problem is as I repeat, no standardization or monitoring process in place.
3. Back in my hockey days I played a little with supplements. Could I tell you what I took. Some of it. Creatine and a couple of other pills. The pills were meant to improve my stamina. More than likely caffeine or possibly and ephedrine derivative. Honestly could not tell you what it was..
There are definitely many body buidling supplements that are relatively safe and with some merit and some herbal extracts....
The point I am trying to make for everyone is that there is no one looking for your well being in any of the products that are sold by health food stores or body building websites.
The dosing schedules for the majority of supplements are anecdotal. How could I or anyone begin to give an appropriate dose of a product that is not standardized?
Now I can recite to you hundreds of dosing and treatment options for a variety of ailments but I would be hard pressed to find you any dosing guidelines that are approved by the medical community on 99% of the herbal/body building products that are flogged on the internet..... |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
2. An illicit source of Ephedrine that has no appropriate DIN labelled 8 mg/ 25 mg or 100 mg. You have no way of knowing what you are actually getting. This can kill you. This can include a number of products that have in the past been distributed through health stores. The problem is as I repeat, no standardization or monitoring process in place.
I honestly think that you would be hard pressed to find an illicit source for ephedrine HCL in Canada since it is legal, many companies manufacture it with standardised doses and din's and it's CHEAP. :)
As for dosing, as we've noted its an individual thing, caution and common sense work, and this is the same way that all drugs are issued. Take an amount, if no problem then increase, if problem then decrease.... its the same regardless of compound, otc or script. The only issue I really see here is pharmacorp style fear mongering of the supplement industry. :dunno: |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by snugs
I honestly think that you would be hard pressed to find an illicit source for ephedrine HCL in Canada since it is legal, many companies manufacture it with standardised doses and din's and it's CHEAP. :)
As for dosing, as we've noted its an individual thing, caution and common sense work, and this is the same way that all drugs are issued. Take an amount, if no problem then increase, if problem then decrease.... its the same regardless of compound, otc or script. The only issue I really see here is pharmacorp style fear mongering of the supplement industry. :dunno:
I guess we agree to a point....
Not too many illegal 8 mg tabs.......but quite a few of the larger strengths are around and have been used in some of the local raves in combos. So the larger strength tabs are definitely on the street.
The thing is I regard supplements/herbals as drugs. They should be evaluated and risk/benefits weighed. If I were to ask you to dose yourself in the same manner you suggest with uhmmm lets say vancomycin for arguments sake........ by the time you actually felt that you were getting the right dose. You would be dead.
I am suggesting for people to educate themselves and think twice before they ingest something........... Not use anecdotal reasoning for taking a supplement/herbal or pharmaceutical....
an·ec·dot·al Pronunciation Key (nk-dtl)
adj.
............ Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: “There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems” (C. Claiborne Ray). |
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| ohboyitsme |
| What's the shelf life on it ephedrine tablets anyway? |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by ohboyitsme
What's the shelf life on it ephedrine tablets anyway?
The real ones should have it on the bottle.
Anything else hard to say....
Ephedrine won't change to anything toxic if it expires. It just won't be as effective........ but some drugs do form toxic compounds.....
Statistically a drug manufacturer has decay studies showing when 90% of the drug is still effective. That is how they generate the expiry date. Oddly enough it will exponentially decrease in effectiveness pass that point for most drugs. Not all but most.
If you bought some from unknown source I would go for 1-2 year max on the shelf. |
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| Flex |
You say you have to be careful when taking herbal supplements and other bodybuilding products as no one is looking out for your well being.....I agree with that....anything you injest you have to be careful of what it is and what it does.
But you talk about it having a DIN number and it will be safer cause you know what your getting. Well getting a perscription for something also doesnt guarantee someone is looking out for your well being. Doctors perscribe to people all the time drugs that have nasty side effects.....but those are fine because they are approved. And everyone just takes them like nothing because the doctor says they are fine and hes looking out for your well being. BS....how many people have died from getting perscriptions of stuff that there bodies are sensitive to. But because its an approved substance is must be from something else. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
............ Not use anecdotal reasoning for taking a supplement/herbal or pharmaceutical....
Flex you are completely right. That is why I mentioned pharmaceutical as well.
There are some wonderfull drugs that are available but you are correct. Everyone has slowly become preconditioned that modern drugs are safer (well some are safer than there older counterparts) One of the most interesting findings you will find is that we have been able to double our lifespan in the last one hundred years.
The advances in medical and pharmaceutical fields has given us this phenomena. The alternatives medicines (herbals, homeopathy etc) have been around long before you and me and no culture/society has been able to take on disease like modern medicine/pharma has in just the last one hundred years.
With everything comes risks. When someone visits there physician we are willing to take the risk that the treatment outweighs the possibility of further deteorating from an illness........ (high blood pressure, high cholesterol, infections etc...)
No drug comes without risk and I hope to educate individuals that supplements and herbals are also calculated risks. Some more so than others. No different than prescription drugs. |
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| Kiddo |
| I wouldn't drink that liquid speed stuff especially if it isn't legal for sale in canada. The only energy drink I'll drink is Lift off because on the label they show exactly how much of what your taking in. but thats my own opinion |
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| bluesuburbansky |
quote:
Originally posted by Flex
But you talk about it having a DIN number and it will be safer cause you know what your getting. Well getting a perscription for something also doesnt guarantee someone is looking out for your well being. Doctors perscribe to people all the time drugs that have nasty side effects.....but those are fine because they are approved. And everyone just takes them like nothing because the doctor says they are fine and hes looking out for your well being. BS....how many people have died from getting perscriptions of stuff that there bodies are sensitive to. But because its an approved substance is must be from something else.
There's a huge difference between teh controls on herbal supplements and prescrip drugs. If you had any idea how much money is spent making sure the amounts of active pharmaceutical ingredient is in each pill/solution/whatever (for OTCs and prescrip drugs) compared to the fact that herbals don't have to test at all. They can claim anything they want (although I think there are laws coming soon). Plus every drug that gets on the market has years and years and millions of dollars put into testing for side effects and all that.
It's true that there are bad drugs on the market but seriously most of the stories are hugely blown out of proportion. Good example is Vioxx. Talk to most pharmacists and you'll hear what they really think about the drug. But when teh public gets scared then the gov has to pull it. Most people who die from prescrip drugs have not used them properly or have been prescribed incorrectly -- it's not the drug, it's user error.
Ephedrine is a very serious drug as said previously. If you take it in an OTC or prescrip you know absolutely how much you are getting. If you take it in a herbal supplement, energy drink or Chinese remedy you really *are* playing Russian roullette. And as said you really have no idea if you have a heart problem that it could exascerbate.
Just had to throw my two cents worth in since I work in the drug industry (legal -- no I'm not a dealer :P ). |
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| ohboyitsme |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
The real ones should have it on the bottle.
Anything else hard to say....
Ephedrine won't change to anything toxic if it expires. It just won't be as effective........ but some drugs do form toxic compounds.....
Statistically a drug manufacturer has decay studies showing when 90% of the drug is still effective. That is how they generate the expiry date. Oddly enough it will exponentially decrease in effectiveness pass that point for most drugs. Not all but most.
If you bought some from unknown source I would go for 1-2 year max on the shelf.
IT's old stuff from when it was still legal to buy here. I was doing the ECA stack. Not sure where I put it lol, think I had half a bottle left. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
The thing is I regard supplements/herbals as drugs. They should be evaluated and risk/benefits weighed. If I were to ask you to dose yourself in the same manner you suggest with uhmmm lets say vancomycin for arguments sake........ by the time you actually felt that you were getting the right dose. You would be dead.
I am suggesting for people to educate themselves and think twice before they ingest something........... Not use anecdotal reasoning for taking a supplement/herbal or pharmaceutical....
...who would dose an injectable anti-b like that and then ignore the likely histamine reaction? Perhaps I should have been more specific and added the caveat of "most compounds", but this goes to the whole point about education doesn't it.
I agree about the effectiveness of herbals and "drugs", although I don't agree with the current trend towards trying to have herbals controlled by the major players (so to speak) and the assocaited PR that goes along with it, which is why I took issue with the whole scare tactic language you used. :)
Education is always the key. Nobody is looking out for your best interests besides you, although I do think that where there are no fully documented medical studies available a sufficient amount of anecdotal info is sufficient. After all, when you have a community (like the bodybuilding community) that is actively experimenting with various compounds its like having a very large cross section of people conducting the basic equivalent of clinical trials.... without a control group of course. :)
Cheers. :beer: |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by bluesuburbansky
....... Good example is Vioxx. Talk to most pharmacists and you'll hear what they really think about the drug. But when teh public gets scared then the gov has to pull it. Most people who die from prescrip drugs have not used them properly or have been prescribed incorrectly -- it's not the drug, it's user error.............
.......Just had to throw my two cents worth in since I work in the drug industry (legal -- no I'm not a dealer :P ).
The Vioxx example is a good one. It is actually a great drug and if it were not for the major lawsuits in the U.S it would probably be still around..... but you are right misuse, misdiagnosing, wrong dose etc are all factors in prescription drug mortality.
Trivia : What is interesting if aspirin were to be released today it would more than likely be a prescription drug or actually be prevented from being released all together. There are quite a few significant interactions with ASA..............
P.S. Uhmmmmm I also work in the drug industry....... Where do you work? PM me if you don't want to say on here. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by snugs
...who would dose an injectable anti-b like that and then ignore the likely histamine reaction? Perhaps I should have been more specific and added the caveat of "most compounds", but this goes to the whole point about education doesn't it.
I agree about the effectiveness of herbals and "drugs", although I don't agree with the current trend towards trying to have herbals controlled by the major players (so to speak) and the assocaited PR that goes along with it, which is why I took issue with the whole scare tactic language you used. :)
Education is always the key. Nobody is looking out for your best interests besides you, although I do think that where there are no fully documented medical studies available a sufficient amount of anecdotal info is sufficient. After all, when you have a community (like the bodybuilding community) that is actively experimenting with various compounds its like having a very large cross section of people conducting the basic equivalent of clinical trials.... without a control group of course. :)
Cheers. :beer:
It would be most interesting to run a drug trial on body builders...... and I agree with you most body builders who have been at it for a long time are very well aware of what they are putting into there bodies.
In those cases all I can do is caution them but most are VERY well informed. May not understand want testicular atrophy really means......... but they get it. hehehehe
p.s Vancomycin is ototoxic and nephrotoxic so not a good one to pick a dose out of the air. One dose and it could be bad. |
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| snugs |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
p.s Vancomycin is ototoxic and nephrotoxic so not a good one to pick a dose out of the air. One dose and it could be bad.
I know. Education is important remember (good choice for an example btw). :beer: |
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