| High HP N/A Set up? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| EK9Hatch |
Hey guys, today at work I was thinking. In the sport compact market, it seems the best way to make big power out of small displacement, 4 cylinder motors is to boost them.
This is the route that I will be going with to attain my goals. I feel that it is the most practical way to raise HP, especially money wise.
Anyways, I was wondering if anyone on here has a High HP N/A Set up? I have no Idea what the Highest HP for a 4 banger is around here.
~Jamie~ |
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| Fish_e_o |
mine is ~165
and my good friend has a neon w/ a 2.4 built to 220hp going in soon un-built it was 180..
i'll break down his set up:
2.4 block bored 40 over
11:1 pistons
crane 18 cams (huge cams)
black dog im
65mm tb (thanks to me!!)
afx race comp
no p/s no ac
cosmo udp
afx header with merge collector
2.5" pipe
an extreme port job done by the best in the neon world on his head
motegi trak lite II's
and more i can't think of...
and soooo much money it's disgusting |
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| SketchifisT |
my 1.8 has 190 and can go up to 200whp easy... planning on bore stroke to 2.0L and runnin 240whp all depends on what you go for.
theres a couple 300whp b-series all motors kicking around |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
theres a couple 300whp b-series all motors kicking around
Wow, I find that VERY hard to believe...I would love to be proven wrong:thumbup: Who owns these cars?
~Jamie~ |
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| Wookey |
quote:
Originally posted by EK9Hatch
Wow, I find that VERY hard to believe...I would love to be proven wrong:thumbup: Who owns these cars?
~Jamie~
Jamie, unfortunetly there aren't many around here. Sketchifist lives down in Vancouver, well Burnaby to be exact. |
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| Driven |
| haha high horsepower n/a .... in a honda? Totally not worth the money. |
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| Wookey |
quote:
Originally posted by Driven
haha high horsepower n/a .... in a honda? Totally not worth the money.
True but think of how many people down in Vancouver have lots of money to burn.... To many:mad: |
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| Ron@Revolution |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
my 1.8 has 190 and can go up to 200whp easy... planning on bore stroke to 2.0L and runnin 240whp all depends on what you go for.
theres a couple 300whp b-series all motors kicking around
I would have to see a 300Whp dyno sheet to believe that. Most of the top NA cars in drag racing are only running 350-400whp and these cars are running over 16:1 compression. |
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| Driven |
quote:
Originally posted by Wookey
True but think of how many people down in Vancouver have lots of money to burn.... To many:mad:
Yea but like.. what a waste of money.. coulda just boosted it and eat the rest. |
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| REFLUX |
Lots of people modify cars a certain way to be unique.
Of course boost is the easier way to achieve high horsepower numbers but there are pros and cons to each side.
I believe the Honda K-series engine is quite capable of 300NA whp
B series is old technology these days ;)
oh & I've seen a picture of a D-series (single cam) engine with approx. 170-180NA whp.
now THAT is cool :D
It's like making a Flintstone car run 13s :lol: |
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| Driven |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
Lots of people modify cars a certain way to be unique.
Of course boost is the easier way to achieve high horsepower numbers but there are pros and cons to each side.
I believe the Honda K-series engine is quite capable of 300NA whp
B series is old technology these days ;)
oh & I've seen a picture of a D-series (single cam) engine with approx. 170-180NA whp.
now THAT is cool :D
It's like making a Flintstone car run 13s :lol:
I believe the only reason people build n/a cars is because they are much more responsive.. as you don't have to wait for a turbo to spool... also they rev very high which is good for road course. |
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| Soulfly |
| Ayeso, Had a Built N/A SOHC VTEC motor.. he says it had around 160 hp.. But.. I'll let him chime in and Finish up the story.. :p :thumbup: |
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| flatboy |
| My mini is about 120hp:blink: |
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| EK9Hatch |
Yeah as I mentioned before, I am not interested in doing a N/A set up, I was just wondering if anyone had one.
As for a B-series at 300 WHP, I don't believe it.
So no one has 200+ on a N/A set up here?
~Jamie~ |
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| Driven |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
my 1.8 has 190 and can go up to 200whp easy... planning on bore stroke to 2.0L and runnin 240whp all depends on what you go for.
theres a couple 300whp b-series all motors kicking around
i don't believe the 300 whp b-series all motor thing for a second. |
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| CanadianR |
300 whp is attainable on a B-series, but is pretty much the max you can get from NA. 300 NA whp with a K-series is VERY attainable. That being said, i highly doubt there are any NA B-series around here that are anywhere near 300whp (SO much money with B-series), nor are there likely any 300whp NA K-series around Edmonton.
Why would anyone spend the money to build up a Honda engine NA? Throttle response, higher redline, reliability, much less heat generated (less cooling difficulties, simpler overall system - comes back to reliability again) |
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| Driven |
quote:
Originally posted by CanadianR
300 whp is attainable on a B-series, but is pretty much the max you can get from NA. 300 NA whp with a K-series is VERY attainable. That being said, i highly doubt there are any NA B-series around here that are anywhere near 300whp (SO much money with B-series), nor are there likely any 300whp NA K-series around Edmonton.
Why would anyone spend the money to build up a Honda engine NA? Throttle response, higher redline, reliability, much less heat generated (less cooling difficulties, simpler overall system - comes back to reliability again)
I agree.. but you have to put a amazing amount of money into it for 300 whp in a b-series motor. |
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| Azlv |
my cousins friend has a crx with over 200 hp dont know the exact hp but i kno its over 200.
he did all the compression himself and changed the rods and pistons all by himself |
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| SketchifisT |
300 whp go on honda-tech troll around. Only one ive seen in person was a full race one and he tuned in at 315whp.
There was a guy however on honda-tech a normal joe who tuned his to 300whp he got some help from a couple companys Rocket Motor sport being one and i believe someone through in pistons as well.
300whp on a B series can happen , its money but hell it can happen. Mid 200s out of a b-series is attained easily. I know of 6 , 4 of which are at the same shop i am right now. Highest one ive drivin is 255whp and that was a b18c5 made into a 2.0.
The new thing though is the k-series which i have looked into . k24 bottom end with the k20 head off the Type S block . And those things go up in power QUICK . I/H/E and still daily drive and you are in the mid 200s. Problem is , its cheaper still to do a b-series up to 250whp ( about 5-7 grand ) and do a bunch of other things then to get a k-series ( still around 11g installed into your car unless you got MAJOR hook ups )
K-series is where a lot of stuff will head but the b-series motors are still super strong and do the job, and whats best is they look like they could be stock ( because they were in Japland ) in your car. The K -series looks out of place however this being said i want one for the 6spd tranny.
Back to the point read up on honda-tech theres some huge H-series builds as well... 300-340 whp vids from a 2.7 litre H series are on the forums. Other all motor builds ive seen some from vwvortex but i figured since u posted drivin a honda you were more intrested in honda.
And for what chad said , yeah a lot more money into civics down here cause our winters are easy and for some reason a lot of people go into honda 3-5 years back in our auto-x and circuit racing teams down here which flowed back into the consumer market after a lot of kids were seeing how quick the little civic could go while still usin less fuel then a lot of other cars .
My prices about b-series builds are based on engine work being done in Toronto . |
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| GT34 |
Im not too firmilliar with the b-series engines. How much torque do they or how much can they put out?
The key is to get a nice base torque number to do the pulling and then have that high hp number to pull you along throughout the rp range. To get the most outta your NA setup you can only go as far as the basics. More fuel, air, bigger spark, higher compression and some sweet timing.
I've been a big fan of boost ever since I got my first boosted car and I'm gonna have a hard time going back to na.:thumbup: Good luck with your findings |
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| Driven |
quote:
Originally posted by GT34
Im not too firmilliar with the b-series engines. How much torque do they or how much can they put out?
The key is to get a nice base torque number to do the pulling and then have that high hp number to pull you along throughout the rp range. To get the most outta your NA setup you can only go as far as the basics. More fuel, air, bigger spark, higher compression and some sweet timing.
I've been a big fan of boost ever since I got my first boosted car and I'm gonna have a hard time going back to na.:thumbup: Good luck with your findings
B-series motors usually make around 120-130 tq, in higher rpms mostly. |
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| egtuner |
| i did 202 WHP and 168 tq in my built b20vtec. |
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| SketchifisT |
Torque can run up to 160 like egtuner said. Takes a bit more when you focus on the power but they do pump torque which in a small car is quite lovely.
Average torque on most is 140 give or take . Mine tuned in at 192whp 149tq out of my b18c1 .. but like egtuner said the b20 vtec puts out 200whp and nice torque. k-series and h-series are totally different animals as well as the d-series. D series average torque is like 100-120 |
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| tokes |
quote:
Originally posted by CanadianR
Why would anyone spend the money to build up a Honda engine NA? Throttle response, higher redline, reliability, much less heat generated (less cooling difficulties, simpler overall system - comes back to reliability again)
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1332457
"Highest rpm was 11,093"
You're not making power to 11K RPM's on a N/A B-series motor, so the redline thing goes right out the window. I'll also take the reliability of a 250-300 WHP turbo motor vs. the N/A motor any day of the week. Much less stress on the valvesprings and rockers from not needing huge cams, and you can make 250 WHP and not have to turn many RPM's out of the motor, which is also great for reliability. As RPM's rise, stress on internal components of the motor rise exponentially. |
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| SketchifisT |
quote:
Originally posted by tokes
http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1332457
"Highest rpm was 11,093"
You're not making power to 11K RPM's on a N/A B-series motor, so the redline thing goes right out the window. I'll also take the reliability of a 250-300 WHP turbo motor vs. the N/A motor any day of the week. Much less stress on the valvesprings and rockers from not needing huge cams, and you can make 250 WHP and not have to turn many RPM's out of the motor, which is also great for reliability. As RPM's rise, stress on internal components of the motor rise exponentially.
Turbo forces power into the engine ... which puts stress on it, ask IntegraRS ( Matty ) he wasn't jumping huge PSI and he still blew his engine, and i bet you anything that if he added cams and pullies he would run almost as quick around a track and still be driving.
No one is sayin an all out N/A motor is fully reliable but you can build a full N/A engine with same setup as a turbo and still fly. The thing to remember here is throttle response is better with N/A especially if all your jumpin with boost is like 5psi to get the 250 mark maybe less depending on the engine.
Fully built both are about the same problem is after like mid 200s on a FWD car you have reached the limits of what it can do, especially at the track when on average your not balls to the ground depending track ( everyone is different ) So when you haven't fully spooled and you have to downshift then shift up and you are not fully usin the turbo then its kind of pointless. If all we are talking about is straight line speed then things change. But i dare you to find a turbo 5psi b18c1 that will run with a N/A setup running the same power .. i have yet to see it so if you find it let me know ( not talking straight line talking track ) |
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| drivensideways |
| NA = power all the time |
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| 95IntegraRS |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
Turbo forces power into the engine ... which puts stress on it, ask IntegraRS ( Matty ) he wasn't jumping huge PSI and he still blew his engine, and i bet you anything that if he added cams and pullies he would run almost as quick around a track and still be driving.
No one is sayin an all out N/A motor is fully reliable but you can build a full N/A engine with same setup as a turbo and still fly. The thing to remember here is throttle response is better with N/A especially if all your jumpin with boost is like 5psi to get the 250 mark maybe less depending on the engine.
Fully built both are about the same problem is after like mid 200s on a FWD car you have reached the limits of what it can do, especially at the track when on average your not balls to the ground depending track ( everyone is different ) So when you haven't fully spooled and you have to downshift then shift up and you are not fully usin the turbo then its kind of pointless. If all we are talking about is straight line speed then things change. But i dare you to find a turbo 5psi b18c1 that will run with a N/A setup running the same power .. i have yet to see it so if you find it let me know ( not talking straight line talking track )
Yeah, I didn't blow it, just had plug wires pop off.
I am impressed with turbo power, just think my motor may be a little tired, because my car doesn't make near the power it should. |
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| Ron@Revolution |
| If you think your going to have less stress on a 18:1 Compression NA motor spinning to over 12,000Rpm then a low boost well tunes Turbo car running under 10 Psi your very mistaken. And your not going to make anywhere near 300 Whp without high compression and revs NA. Period. A turbo puts stress because it is adding 50%-500% more HP. The combustion chamber pressure is a result of power not a turbo or nitrous. A 300Hp car Na, Turbo or Nitrous well have roughly the same pressures in the combustion chamber hense the same power out put. There are plenty of claims of Dyno verfied power out of NA cars so where are the time slips? Mph in the 1/4 dosen't lie dyno's can. :drama: |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by SketchifisT
Mid 200s out of a b-series is attained easily.
I have to disagree with you. Extensive work is required to get anything over 200 WHP on a B-series.
~Jamie~ |
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| RaGingAngeL |
I wouldn't say the work is extensive....
as the formula is out there, but count on spending some good cash to attain those figures.
Hitting 250whp without headwork NA is largely unheard of....(talking exclusively Bseries here)
Just getting all the "accessories" (breathing mods) to have the potential to hit 250whp is going to turn many away.
"Mid 250whp" to me means 250-265....
Not saying anybody is a liar here.... but with so many threads all around the net...not just honda-tech regarding the dynojet vs. dynapack vs. mustang dyno vs. dynometers in different locations....
I agree with Ron@Revolution.... there will always be variables at our level of tuning.... but unless you actually took Vin Diesel seriously about the double clutch upshift.... you should get a pretty decent trapspeed to show your build's worth.
:) |
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| dc2696 |
quote:
Originally posted by Ron@Revolution
If you think your going to have less stress on a 18:1 Compression NA motor spinning to over 12,000Rpm then a low boost well tunes Turbo car running under 10 Psi your very mistaken.
Agreed 100%.
quote:
Originally postred by drivensideways
NA = power all the time
Turbo-lag is a thing of the past. Its practiaclly non-existent on low boost set-ups (as most low boost set-ups usually have a decent CR). As long as your not trying to make 10-12psi at 2000rpm on a 1.6 you'll pretty much be in boost most of the rpm range. (And I'd like to see an n/a honda 11krpm monster pull from there aswell lol) |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| I was always under the impression higher RPMs put more stress on your internals. Hence, Honda installing block girdles on VTEC motors. |
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| DarrylBleau |
Induction has nothing to do with rev limits. A 'NA' motor is not inherantly more capable to rev than a turbo motor would be.
There really isn't much to discuss here. A turbo motor will run the same horsepower as a natural induction motor with higher reliability. Unless you just want to be different and have money to throw around, if you want to make power, use some sort of forced induction. |
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| chris f |
quote:
Originally posted by drivensideways
NA = power all the time
um, nope. high hp n/a cars have a very narrow powerband, and only make killer power at higher rpms. valvetrain harmnonics are killer when you do this alot. making good tq on this type of mortor is hard to get as well. look at a honda s2000, a stock DOHC neon makes more tq then it, yet has less hp. |
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| IDTrav |
good post, very informative :thumbup:
I spent a good year or two researching different setups before I started hunting down parts and getting the motor rebuilt. From what I've found to make big HP N/A you need a vicious cam, bigger valves, some Webers and you're laughin-ITB's if you're F/I. Originally I was gunning for 180-200 but I'd be happy to see 150 to the wheels after we get the final bugs sorted out here. The most i've seen on a N/A setup outta these SOHC, 12 valve motors is 250BHP...not sure how big a difference is from the brake HP to wheel HP? |
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| silverTEG |
"tony the tiger "was a guy on honda tech and team integra that had a 250+whp GS-R NA, crazy set-up, i believe it was an 11 second car, i believe the car is turbo now, but was impressive at the time.... he is from toronto i believe
here is a vid... clicky |
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| scooby_dooby |
The fastest all motor bseries I've ever heard of is Erick Aguilar's b18c powered civic, that I *think* eventually hit very high 9's in the 1/4, he was definately pullin mid 10's. I believe it was around 260whp.
quote:
This Civic coupe built by Erick's Racing is powered by a 2.1 liter B18C1 (GS-R) engine that uses TODA camshafts, valve springs, and campulleys to run the quarter mile in 10.59 seconds @ 127mph, the fastest time ever for a normally aspirated Honda engine.
What's even more impressive is this engine uses a Hondata ECU, stock ignition system right down to the ignition wires, and a GS-R intake manifold. The engine itself retains the stock stroke and doesn't use any deck plates to increase stroke.
http://www.todaracing.com/topics/pr...cars/civic.html
All on a stock ignition :cool:
It's not worth the money though, i would just do a mild build with some tuning and leave it there, or move to turbo.
actually, after looking around, i think there are 2 b-series NA engines that have managed to pull 9's:
Leslie Durst - 9.93 @ 136 (B Series Motor)
Erick Aguilar - 9.99 @ 132mph (B Series Motor) |
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| EK9Hatch |
^ Thanks for the info! VERY impressive! Almost hard to believe. I guess it helps when the car is pretty much just a "shell", but still, thats insane!
So I guess it can be done with the right budget!
~Jamie~ |
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