| ReasonOne |
Before anybody tries to lambast me hear my story out. I need a spot to vent and some advice from a police officer if possible.
The car I currently drive was vandalized (it's covered in graffiti) and I was shopping for another car. I responded to an ad for the sale of a vehicle and showed up to the owners house. I spent 15 minutes crawling over it, under it and inside it checking out the running condition. I ask if it is alright to drive it around a couple blocks and he says yes, no problem and all the papers are in the glovebox. I look at the liscence plate and it appears current. I open the glovebox and I see the registration and insurance papers in it, so I figure I am good to go.
I drive it 3 blocks, turn around and 2 blocks away from the sellers house, I get pulled over by a police vehicle. So now I'm pulled over for DWB and the treatment was harsh (to put it mildly - I'd rather not get into the details). They inform me the plate doesn't belong to the vehicle and the registration and insurance are both expired. I give them my side of the story, providing the sellers name, address and phone number. They take my liscence and tell me to wait. They call the guy up and order him to show up to my location or they will send another officer to get him.
The guy arrives and the cops have to separate us because I am yelling at the guy why he lied about the registration, plate and insurance (GRR!). He gives me a sheepish look and the cops spend the better part of 2 hours quizzing him and filling out paperwork. All this time I am doing everything not to lose my cool. The cops spend another 5 minutes talking to the seller of the car (meanwhile handing over a stack of fines). The guy then breaks down and cries on the side of the road. Now it's my turn to talk to the police.
The officer apologizes for my harsh treatment right off the bat. He admits he didn't buy my story at first but everything checks out and he now knows I was telling the truth. He also complemented me on my composure. He gives me a failure to produce insurance ticket for $172. I inform him that I don't think it was fair to give me that fine. If the owner of a vehicle states the car is fine to take around the block how could I have know that he was lying???? The plate appeared current. The registration and insurance papers in the glovebox were present. I even possessed valid registration and insurance for my own vehicle on my person (which the officer was not interested in viewing). I really don't want my insurance to double or triple over this incident. He retorts that the driver of the vehicle is responsible for determining if it is registered or insured if he or she is pulled over.
I inform him that by this reasoning, every time I want to test drive a car at a dealership then I should demand to see all the registration and insurance paperwork - and not just accept the Dealership plate they throw on the back. If you ask a dealership this they will toss you off their lot in 10 seconds flat, 1 out of 2 times (I used to work at a car dealership....I know).
He tells me that it is different in that circumstance, that dealerships are required by law to have insurance in order to conduct business. Well what about a shady two bit car lot as opposed to a "reputable looking" car dealer?? Should I do the same with them? Not all of those guys can afford that insurance (at this time I inform the officer that I have worked at car dealerships in the past). The officer contemplates my statement for a few seconds. He then tells me that basically I should have physically checked the paperwork to verify that the registration and insurance were current and for the vehicle. Then I wouldn't have been screwed over by the other guy.
I tell the officer I have one last concern. What if the paperwork in the car appeared current, but were expired??? If I look at an insurance slip that expires sometime next year and it's actually been cancelled before that period how would I know???? Certainly not by looking at it. The officer tells me you ask the owner. To which I respond HOW DO I KNOW IF THE OWNER IS LYING??? CASE IN POINT.
He ponders my statement for 30 or so seconds. He then tells me that he sympathizes with my situation but I should consider myself lucky because the other guy got $4200 in fines and his vehicle is being confiscated. There's nothing more he can do at this point. He also told me I am welcome to fight my ticket if I like.
Can I fight this or am I wasting my time?? I think what I am saying is both reasonable and logical. I don't want my insurance company to see this ticket on my abstract and triple my insurance! Any tips, advice or comments are welcome. I'm very frustrated and feel like I didn't do anything wrong. Thanks everyone for listening. |
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| eurotrailertras |
| doesnt hurt to try. they might have sympathy for you and throw the ticket out, or they might just tell you to take it as it is. i would fight it if i were in your position anyways. |
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| Bad Egg |
Wow, I definitely wouldn't stand next to you in a lightning storm. In this instance I would have thought the officer would have cut you some slack, but for some reason he didn't.
As for fighting the ticket, it is the same old story; it depends on what your time is worth. If you can afford to take it to court or at least the prosecutor, you have a fair chance of getting a discharge on this one. Technically you may be guilty for not checking the expiry date on the slip, but that is such a fine line that they may sympathize.
Hope you can get it worked out. |
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| kouki240 |
I think you have a good chance if you fight it. You can at least get it greatly reduced by fighting it.
You DID give proof of insurance (pink slip), it just wasn't valid. If anything, he could have given the ticket for not having insurance which is $2000+ but he didn't. |
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| Vive le Quebec |
judge's have discretion, and in a case like this, i would be shocked if a judge handed down a judgement that you are in fact guilty. this isn't a case of "ignorance of the law is no excuse" since you knew the law, and were under the impression that you were operating within all its boundaries.
i understand your frustration...this is one of the few times where i would say, this ticket is unfair and should be quashed/withdrawn...
go to court. |
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| dtjohnst |
The cop gave you a little slack, I agree with him there (although depending on what the harsh treatment was at the beginning maybe not), but I think even what he did give you is unfair. Here's why. As citizens, it's our job to take reasonable measures to ensure we're operating within the law, and I think you did.
Now, another point to remember, is that in Canada you have the presumption of innocence. In short, no officer should treat you harshly or as a guilty person before verifying your story. If the part you left out is the opposite of that, you definately don't deserve a ticket, even if you had of been in the wrong. They can detain you or restrain you if they have reason to believe you might run or they are in danger, but I doubt either of those was the case.
I concur on fighting this one, and I think you stand a good chance. |
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| crazy240sx |
| is this actually a demerited ticket, like will it actually affect your insurance rates and take demerits away, i didn't think so because of it not being a speeding ticket or such, but let me know |
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| 92_WhItE_H23 |
| no, this is not a driving infraction there is no demerits with this ticket. |
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| HEWSINATOR |
| I know this is not contract law, but I think the "Reasonable Person" test would be suited here. Would a reasonable person have checked the insurance? Heck, I have drove, and let people drive for sale cars, and this has never crossed my mind. |
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| someguyincanada |
| I personally would give the other driver the ticket, as you have stated a few good statements. How are you to know the insurance is valid without calling the insurance company etc. I know a guy on the base, dont quote me exactly but if my memory serves me right ran a red at 137 and 97 got double t-boned no insurance, had to pay over five thousand in fines. yet he still drives it makes you kinda wonder how many more cars are out there like that.... Where does he live so we can all point and laugh at what douchebag he is... j/k kinda makes you wonder how long hes been running without insurance. I feel SO safe in edmonton :lol: |
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| ReasonOne |
Thanks everybody for all your advice and support. I have one more request to any police officers or lawyers on this board. When I go down and explain my circumstance to the prosecutor, is there any statute, law or statement that I could offer that helps my position or appeals to his sense of fairness? I've been trying to articulate my argument in a more favorable manner, but I just want to be sure I'm not digging a hole for myself.
Thanks in advance. |
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| stybscelica |
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonOne
Thanks everybody for all your advice and support. I have one more request to any police officers or lawyers on this board. When I go down and explain my circumstance to the prosecutor, is there any statute, law or statement that I could offer that helps my position or appeals to his sense of fairness? I've been trying to articulate my argument in a more favorable manner, but I just want to be sure I'm not digging a hole for myself.
Thanks in advance.
Ya i think you definatly got a raw deal there. You have a significant chance of beating this ticket in court. You have two options:
What you need to do first is plaed Not guilty by mail with several availible court dates pick one for each month for a few months down the road here's the Court calander link
http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/cale...oc/edmonton.htm
If your first appearance is in November pick some dates in JAN FEB and MARCH. this will give the courts an idea and will prevent any delay's. Pleading not guilty by mail saves you a day off in court.
Or show up at the first appearance and plead not guilty in person, At this time you don't explain your defence you just plead not guilty. Prosecuters hate hearing excuses on first appearances.
Now at the court appearance the officer issuing the ticket will be there, Speak to the prosecuter well in advance a let him know what your concern is. the Prosecuter will speak to the Officer and see if hte officer is willing to testify in this instance. I know i wouldn't want to testify to this chincy thing. The officer will have to testify he gave the R.O. a mit full of tickets and will have to explain why he gave you one. Now you tell the prosecuter your very sorry but you were only doing what you could reasonably do, You asked the R.O. if it was registered and insured. and the paper work was in the Glove box, Your a trusting guy and took the R.O's word for it. The car had a plate and you don't have the ability other than reading apiece of paper that is valid. Etc. You only did what every other reasonable person would do. you need to show remorse and indicate you'll never test drive a vehicle with furhter inquiries and he'll never see you in court again. SOB SOB SOB. If hte Prosecuter doesn't give you a break the Judge surely will. Just what ever you do don't sound whinny. be respectfull and show remorse. This should surly help you out.
Any other questions just PM me, I'm an Ex officer and currently am still in law enforcement. There's a couple of others of us on here like dtjohnst. that will surely help you out.
Cheers |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonOne
Thanks everybody for all your advice and support. I have one more request to any police officers or lawyers on this board. When I go down and explain my circumstance to the prosecutor, is there any statute, law or statement that I could offer that helps my position or appeals to his sense of fairness? I've been trying to articulate my argument in a more favorable manner, but I just want to be sure I'm not digging a hole for myself.
Thanks in advance.
Don't quote or cite laws in court. Lawyers cite cases that set precedent, but they don't cite laws. A judge is a super lawyer, he knows the law and prattling on about rights and statutes does nothing but piss them off. They want to know why you feel you aren't guilty in a concise, coherent manner so they can make their decision. Avoid long speeches. |
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| SkiTLz |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Don't quote or cite laws in court. Lawyers cite cases that set precedent, but they don't cite laws. A judge is a super lawyer, he knows the law and prattling on about rights and statutes does nothing but piss them off. They want to know why you feel you aren't guilty in a concise, coherent manner so they can make their decision. Avoid long speeches.
I'll second that.. Nothings funny that some dude fighting his ticket that trys to impress everyone with a few laws he read.. Your not a lawyer.. Dont act like one.. |
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| ReasonOne |
I just wanted to thank everybody for their support. I went to speak with the Crown Prosecutor yesterday and he tossed the charge immediately.
I had to wait 1 1/2 hours but my actual conversation with the Crown lasted just over 45 seconds. He asked me what happened and he stopped me in the middle of my explanation and said "This is garbage."
At first I thought by that statement he thought I was lying.
Then he kept asking me "What were these guys trying to prove?"
:lol:
VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!!
:lol:
:blue:
Thanks everyone once again.
:beer: |
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| dtjohnst |
Congrats!
Once again we see justice prevail over the law! The way it should be, afterall, the ability for this kind of thing to happen is written right into the law.
I can imagine your reaction to "this is crap" though. I'd be like "wtf. You're crap." I probably would've assumed he meant my story was as well. haha
Oh well. How much your day total was wasted, just that hour and a half? |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonOne
I just wanted to thank everybody for their support. I went to speak with the Crown Prosecutor yesterday and he tossed the charge immediately.
I had to wait 1 1/2 hours but my actual conversation with the Crown lasted just over 45 seconds. He asked me what happened and he stopped me in the middle of my explanation and said "This is garbage."
At first I thought by that statement he thought I was lying.
Then he kept asking me "What were these guys trying to prove?"
:lol:
VICTORY IS MINE!!!!!!
:lol:
:blue:
Thanks everyone once again.
:beer:
Why don't you write up a little post on the steps you took from when you got the ticket, to seeing the crown? It's a commonly asked question here and seeing as how you just went through the process I'm sure it's fresh in your memory.
We can then sticky the post, something to the effect of "You've got a ticket - here are the steps to visit the Crown Prosecutor to plead your case before trial". |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
Why don't you write up a little post on the steps you took from when you got the ticket, to seeing the crown? It's a commonly asked question here and seeing as how you just went through the process I'm sure it's fresh in your memory.
We can then sticky the post, something to the effect of "You've got a ticket - here are the steps to visit the Crown Prosecutor to plead your case before trial".
Agreed!!!
:thumbup: |
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| Vive le Quebec |
Yup. Ticket thrown out. No surprise. At least you didn't have to plead not guilty and go through the throws of full fledged court.
Congrats. |
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| ReasonOne |
| When I have time during the next week or two I will try to write down the steps for everyone to see. Should I post it here or do I send it to a Mod to sticky it? |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ReasonOne
When I have time during the next week or two I will try to write down the steps for everyone to see. Should I post it here or do I send it to a Mod to sticky it?
You can just PM it to me and I'll do it up.
Try to make it as detailed as possible - a lot of people have never done this before, so it'd be nice to have a dummy-proof method. |
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| ReasonOne |
I've handed details of the process to fight a ticket to the Mod. Hopefully this helps anybody else who wants to fight a ticket.
To dtjohnst:
The total time wasted in my day on this was about 2 hours total. Took 10-15 minutes getting a nice close place to park, 15 minutes waiting in line and 1 1/2 hours for waiting to speak to a Crown Prosecutor. Time spent with the Crown was about 4-5 minutes (most of it was him filling out paperwork - our actual conversation time was under a minute).
I cannot be exactly sure but I believe they open at either 8:00 or 8:15. I showed up at around 8:20 and was out the door at a quarter after 10. |
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