| Pro Drag |
Would you prefer a HP # aquired through "tricks" to get the most HP out of your engine while it is situated inside of a building with the hood open and a fan blowing onto your intake air filter?
Or would you rather have a "Real Life" HP # that you can actually back up at the track with MPH, where it counts mind you?
Not trying to start a flame war, just want to know what the discerning enthusiast is more interested in. Post your preference and your reasoning please. :bigthumbup: |
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| redbaron303 |
Max hp under ideal conditions... that's always nice :)
Although I would like to do both to see the difference in the #'s :) |
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| Inzane |
| I don't quite understand your comparison... how would you obtain these "real life hp" numbers you're talking about? |
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| prophet_ca |
| i don't understand the question :huh: |
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| TheWask |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Apr 13 2003, 11:47 PM
I don't quite understand your comparison... how would you obtain these "real life hp" numbers you're talking about?
Same Here |
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| SlowAzzPorsche911T |
| What he's meaning to say is slap the dyno on there and just pull a run or blow cold cold air on the intake with a fan and do lil tricks to potentially raise the h.p.. quite a simple question. I for one would like to know my true h.p and not run little tricks to.. I wanna know what my engine is producing in real life :D |
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| Pro Drag |
SAP911 has the idea, I started this thread after posting the following in an earlier thread:quote:
quote:
QUOTE (Kwanjie @ Apr 13 2003, 03:06 PM)
definatley, it's not only for airflow to your intake, it's also for cooling... I mean c'mon taking it to redline and your car is not moving... thus no air running through the radiator or air cooling the engine... so it would definatley help.
So, in your mind, how much of a WHP difference does the "cooling effect" of the fan provide?
If you want an accurate "Real Life Scenario" run, the fan should be about 2-3 feet away from the front of the car, blowing at the RADIATOR, with the hood down. Regardless, the dyno run usually lasts all of what, 15 seconds? So any effect of a fan blowing over the top of an engine will be negligable.
Dyno runs should also be made when the engine is at standard operating temperature. That is if you are looking for accurate "everyday horsepower" numbers. There are lots of tricks to bump up "one time maximum horsepower". Pro Drag Performance Inc. chooses to tune for "everyday horsepower", so the customer can actually back up their "Dyno #'s" at the track, and not look foolish when their "220 WHP" car get's out MPH'd by a "200 WHP" car in the 1320 at the track. Which is BTW where WHP really counts.
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| scooby_dooby |
well isn't the whole reason of the fan to simulate real-life stuations? You are going to have air blowing through your radf and over your engine, so to not have that would be the non "real world" results...
but i think peak HP is stupid, you have whole powerband and that's what matters |
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| Kwanjie |
Like I said.... I never knew real life situations means that, running your car through your gears.... and not go anywhere thus no airflow flowing into your engine compartment... I guess I learn something new everyday.
SO to acheive these "real life situated" HP numbers... do not use a fan.. cuz it's not realistic :rolleyes: :rolleyes: |
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| 98Luder |
i think you guys are missing the point of what dynos are for?
A dyno is not for peak numbers ONLY.
A dyno is a tool, and this tool maybe used for many purposes.
-checking torque/hp
-accurately tuning so your engine runs efficiently
-modifying your power band(not only for peak hp)
-testing products and seeing what works with your engine
It's not just a tool for bragging rights. If it is all you want, there are ways you can easily manipulate the sensors on a dyno to get even higher numbers, but wht's the point? It really proves nothing.
Sometimes i think you guys are really into this stuff for the wrong reasons. |
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| 98Luder |
PearlyWhiteTSI: to address you post,
I think that the bragging rights come at the track.
However, you do need a dyno to tune....to get the peak number
and when you get the peak number you can go to the track
and thats' how you get the fast times in order to get the bragging rights.
Is that what you mean?
So basically to get the fast times at the track you do need the peak number and to get the peak number you'll get the bragging rights at the track. Heh.... |
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| Dr. Lightspeed |
| A dyno is not for seeing how much hp/torque you have as that is never going to be accurate. Go to 4 dynos and have 4 sets of numbers. A dyno is only good for tuning comparing one number making a change and then testing it again under the identical conditions to see what difference the change made. This includes all the variables being the same. Including engine heat etc. The other factor that comes into play is letting the ecu settle in after the change to see what the actual gain will be. Braggin numbers are cool but they really don't mean anything. Even if the dyno has been expertly caliubrated. The other factor that comes into play while doing dyno tuning is barometric pressure. Lots of ifs and buts. This is just to add to Luders post which I completely agree with. |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by 98Luder@Apr 13 2003, 09:00 PM
PearlyWhiteTSI: to address you post,
I think that the bragging rights come at the track.
However, you do need a dyno to tune....to get the peak number
and when you get the peak number you can go to the track
and thats' how you get the fast times in order to get the bragging rights.
Is that what you mean?
So basically to get the fast times at the track you do need the peak number and to get the peak number you'll get the bragging rights at the track. Heh....
Bragging rights are EARNED at the TRACK, I fully agree with that statement. However, bench racing is like masturbation, everybody does it. :D
So, in an effort to achieve the most accurate # possible, we like to dyno with the hood closed, or as closed as possible with the fan blowing into the radiator. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by PearlyWhiteTSI@Apr 14 2003, 12:53 PM
So, in an effort to achieve the most accurate # possible, we like to dyno with the hood closed, or as closed as possible with the fan blowing into the radiator.
In some cases I would say consistency is more important than "accuracy". Depends on your point of reference.
If my buddy dynoed (same kind of car as me) with the hood closed, I'd dyno with the hood closed. If he dynoed with the hood up, I'd do the same. (or vice versa). Who cares which is more "accurate"? Accurate with respect to what?
What's important is apple to apple comparison, whether its two cars same day, same conditions, or same car before & after a mod, same conditions, etc. |
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| Apexparts |
And with the hood closed, Interference with th RPM pickup is harder to avoid.
Just another thing to keep in mind when trying to get repeatable numbers. |
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| THEONE |
quote:
Originally posted by PearlyWhiteTSI@Apr 14 2003, 12:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 98Luder@Apr 13 2003, 09:00 PM
PearlyWhiteTSI: to address you post,
I think that the bragging rights come at the track.
However, you do need a dyno to tune....to get the peak number
and when you get the peak number you can go to the track
and thats' how you get the fast times in order to get the bragging rights.
Is that what you mean?
So basically to get the fast times at the track you do need the peak number and to get the peak number you'll get the bragging rights at the track._ Heh....
Bragging rights are EARNED at the TRACK, I fully agree with that statement. However, bench racing is like masturbation, everybody does it. :D
So, in an effort to achieve the most accurate # possible, we like to dyno with the hood closed, or as closed as possible with the fan blowing into the radiator.
So you are saying someone would have more bragging rights with a stripped out Civic who runs 110Mph then someone whos car runs 109Mph that weighs 1500-2500Lbs more and has to make probably double or more horsepower! Not to mention Nitrous!
:bs: |
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| scooby_dooby |
does the civic win the race? whoever's faster gets the bragging rights, who cares about MPH?
that being said i think it's gay to compare street strim cars with these stripped out race-only cars. Cars that really aren't that impressive pull these super low times because they've been stripped so much. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Apr 14 2003, 02:55 PM
who cares about MPH?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Is that what you really think? (again, from a Honda owner) hehe... |
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| scooby_dooby |
well i know that your trap speed can tell alot about your 1/4 time, if that's what you're talking about.
i meant that my stock integra can go up to 145mph, but who cares? It's not a fast car...yet |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Apr 14 2003, 03:56 PM
i meant that my stock integra can go up to 145mph, but who cares? It's not a fast car...yet
There's a BIG difference between a vehicle's TOP speed and its TRAPSPEED!
Your ET in the 1/4 mile has so many variables.. launch technique, shifting, etc. Its not a perfect indicator of your car's performance. The trapspeed on the other hand is a clear indicator of the power your car is making.
If one car runs 13.7 @ 106 mph, and another car runs 13.4 @ 102 mph you're going to say the 13.4 car is faster? There could be so many reasons why the 13.7 car didn't have a faster run that time, ET wise. |
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| ManHunter |
Well, I see the dyno first as a tool to help me see if mods I'm doing to my car are beneficial or not. And how the get the maximum out of a mod. So, in this case you would want a dyno that can accurately reproduce numbers run after run (which is impossible, I know, but as close as possible. Limiting variables is key).
And unless you have at least 100 more "dynoed" WHP than the other guy, you can't brag you car is more powerful, because numbers can be vastly different depending on the type of dyno, air temperature, how much fuel is in the car, etc... I would only compare dyno numbers between cars if they were made the same day on the same dyno, one after the other...
So, again, a dyno is a tool to help me get the max out of my mods.
MH |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by ManHunter@Apr 14 2003, 06:06 PM
I would only compare dyno numbers between cars if they were made the same day on the same dyno, one after the other...
Yeah, I would generally agree with that statement. :bigthumbup: |
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| redbaron303 |
| Whys that?! Can user affect settings too much or something?! And temps and all that dyno stuff?! |
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| Loose |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Apr 14 2003, 03:56 PM
i meant that my stock integra can go up to 145mph, but who cares? It's not a fast car...yet
On what planet can your car go that fast? You just told us how much power it makes, and trust me... it won't go near 145mph.
Back to the original question: I don't think that trying to obtain ideal hp numbers on the dyno is that bad. When you race at the track, do you do everything you can to make it quicker? When I went I iced the I/C and dropped the rear tire pressure. This isn't representative of how I run it at on the street, but I did it in attempt to go faster.
I suppose it all depends on what you're using the dyno for. |
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| Loose |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane@Apr 14 2003, 06:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ManHunter@Apr 14 2003, 06:06 PM
I would only compare dyno numbers between cars if they were made the same day on the same dyno, one after the other...
Yeah, I would generally agree with that statement. :bigthumbup:
I would only hesitate comparing Mustang, Dynojet, and other machines' readings.
Mustangs commonly read 10-15% less than the 'jets.
Correction factors are useful for taking care atmospheric differences. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Loose@Apr 14 2003, 07:06 PM
Mustangs commonly read 10-15% less than the 'jets.
Does anyone know why that is? |
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| B18C |
I would prefer consistency over anything else.
To answer your question though, I would rather have real world numbers than artificially increased numbers. How one achieves conditions more like the real world seems to be a point of contention though. ;) |
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| Dr. Lightspeed |
| Inertia verses load bearing dyno's. Inertia is just a calculation. |
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| ManHunter |
quote:
Originally posted by Loose@Apr 14 2003, 08:06 PM
I would only hesitate comparing Mustang, Dynojet, and other machines' readings.
Mustangs commonly read 10-15% less than the 'jets.
Correction factors are useful for taking care atmospheric differences.
Yeah, I forgot about the correction factors. I wonder how much difference you would see in HP based on atmospheric differences? +- 10 Celcius? different barometric pressure?
F1 drivers claim they can feel their car lose power when the sun peaks out from behind a cloud...
MH |
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| v8slayer |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Apr 14 2003, 04:56 PM
well i know that your trap speed can tell alot about your 1/4 time, if that's what you're talking about.
i meant that my stock integra can go up to 145mph, but who cares? It's not a fast car...yet
Well speed shows WHP!
E/T shows hook up , driver skill , car set up and luck.
A car that does the 1/4 in 12.55 @ 117 mph has way more power than a car that does 12.00 at 110 mph for example.
The 12.55 car has 60 FT problems probably.
My point is WHP means shit in the 1/4 mile because less power and equal weight can still win. |
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| HJr |
true true ^^^^^^^^^ driver skill & wieght is a big variable.
BUT for my money, and my bragging rights, i perfer peak HP. nothing gets people more interested that peak HP. Its true that track slips probably MEAN more in real life terms, but what you putting to the wheels (proven by a dyno) is the best kinda hp. This is my opinion of course, but i feel that peak hp is more universally recognised than 1/4 mile times.
Being a rally racer, 1/4 times mean relatively little to me, where as hp to the wheels means alot. In rally, lower hp cars beat higher hp cars ALL the time. its mainly about driver skill. thats why peak hp is so important. it tells you about the CAR, not the driver. I think that this could translate reasonably well to draggin too. |
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| 83b18b1slow |
| Is it a waste of time to dyno an automatic equipped car? :unsure: |
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| chris@apex |
| its not a wast of time to run an auto on the dyno. the dyno is the best way to see gains with modifications. its not a tool to see who has more horsepower, the numbers can change day to day. it is best used as a tuning tool. |
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| CanadianR |
quote:
Originally posted by scooby_dooby@Apr 13 2003, 05:51 PM
but i think peak HP is stupid, you have whole powerband and that's what matters
Well said, far too much emphasis is placed on peak hp numbers when it's area under the curve that really matters where hp is concerned. A 200 peak whp car isn't necessarily faster than a 170 peak whp car. As far as hp numbers are concerned, i don't really care about the actual number, all i care about is improving the power curve from my stock power curve, so i guess i'm in favour of "real world" numbers. |
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