| 180sxforthewin |
| Its not about cars but. I was out the other night and there was a kid at the bar who was trying to buy beer and the bartender wouldnt let him because he thought his id was fake. He asked him to take the id out of the little plastic pouch in his walletand he refused so they kicked him out of the bar. My Question is do they have the right to take out your id from you wallet or is that invasion of privacy or something. |
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| stybscelica |
they do have the authority to inspect the id to see if it is fake. If the Bar staff asks you to remove the ID from the puoch, You don't have to and no they don't have the authority to removce it them selves but If you refuse you'll surely get tossed. Do what they say as they have the ultamate power when you are in there establishment.
Cheers |
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| Fish_e_o |
i know someone,not me:rolleyes: ... who used that scam...
you scan an old license and put in that you're over 18. then you print it out on photo paper
when it's under plastic it looks like a real id but if you take it out it's clearly paper
i think they have every right to pull out the id. if it's real what do you have to wory about:dunno: |
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| dc2696 |
| when I was in in hig school my budy used to make fake ids.:lol: |
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| lovinthespeed |
| not goign to lie i got a fake but i used an alberta card and got a black and white photo got my friend to do his hair like me and were set all i do now is memrize his last name and i got buy boose dont go to clubs tho i will wait |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by 180sxforthewin
Its not about cars but. I was out the other night and there was a kid at the bar who was trying to buy beer and the bartender wouldnt let him because he thought his id was fake. He asked him to take the id out of the little plastic pouch in his walletand he refused so they kicked him out of the bar. My Question is do they have the right to take out your id from you wallet or is that invasion of privacy or something.
Bars, clubs, liquor stores, etc are responsible for ensuring they don't sell to minors. If you read the law books, they don't say it's illegal to "attempt to buy alcohol as a minor", but it is illegal to "sell or furnish alcohol to a minor." I will also add that it is illegal to both create or posess fake identification (so those of you who have one and think you're ok using it, even if you don't get the maximum 5 year jail sentence, you get a criminal record if you're nailed for it and found guilty). So basically, if the club or whatever doesn't ensure they take reasonable steps to prevent the sale of alcohol to minors, they get in trouble. If the ID is obviously fake or looks suspicious in any way, they can get in trouble for not looking closer.
If someone asks you something, and you comply, it's not invasion of privacy, no matter what it is. If someone asks you if they can go through your underwear drawer and bank information, and you say "sure, here ya go", you can't later go back and say they invaded anything, unless you argue you allowed it under duress. If the club asks you to remove it and you say "ok", it's your own fault. If they ask to see it and you hand it to them and THEN they remove it, that's also fine. No law says they can't remove your ID from it's plastic cover, they just can't pry your ID from your hands if you're unwilling to hand it over.
Further to that, I've heard a lot of people whine while being tossed about how they weren't doing anything wrong and the club has no right to throw them out. Be warned, they are private establishments. They could say you aren't allowed in because they don't like your clothes, your smell, your nose, anything. That includes refusing to show your ID, refusing to remove it from it's pouch, or anything else.
Think of it this way, when police ask for your licence, if it's in a wallet or other holder, you should be asked to remove it. Standard police practice in Canada. If the police, who have computer databases they're going to check when they get back to the cruiser anyways, are going to need it removed, why wouldn't a club?
In short, you never have to show ID except to a peace officer, but the club doesn't have to let you in either. And the club could decide to say they won't accept anything but a birth certificate and a letter from your mother, and they would be perfectly within their right to enforce that. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
When I was a bouncer, quite often we asked people to remove it from their wallet, we never did, because normally people had their bank card tucked in behind it or some other card.
People would whine some times because it was a pita to get it in and out, but they knew if they didn't we wouldn't let them in.
We also detained a number of people with questionable IDs and called the RCMP. Oddly enough about out of 3 dozen people only a couple ran. Most times we still had the ID, so we called the RCMP anyhow, and they came and took the ID. Some got charged, some got warnings from the RCMP.
We had people using siblings ID, friends ID, non-goverment ID...
I think we only ever had 1 fake. It would piss some people off that we claimed to ID everybody(I ID's a 45yr old lady once), mainly to make sure they wheren't on the barred list, but a few people we let in without seeing their ID. But they where regulars and we knew them, so we would just ask if they had it on them, incase the cops came or the liquior board. |
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| S2KPWR |
when I worked as a doorman, i just would occasional tell the line up to have them out and ready before they came to the door.
They have full rights to check your ID physically if they think its fake.
IF you were to leave the bar, they couldnt chase you down and make you take it out, but if your in a private establishment they can request to see it, or boot your ass out. |
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| lovinthespeed |
| thats y there only good in a liquar store and fuck people should learn to wait for the clubs much funnier with all friends anyways |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by 180sxforthewin
Its not about cars but. I was out the other night and there was a kid at the bar who was trying to buy beer and the bartender wouldnt let him because he thought his id was fake. He asked him to take the id out of the little plastic pouch in his walletand he refused so they kicked him out of the bar. My Question is do they have the right to take out your id from you wallet or is that invasion of privacy or something.
Hi 180sxforthewin,
Not only bars will ask you to remove your ID but most FI's (Financial Institutions) will to. They want to verify your identity.
dtjohnst,
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not correct that if you are over the age of majority the record will stick if convicted. But if you are under the age of majority and a "Young Offender" The offence sticks till 18, then your record is wiped clean?
From my understanding that there appears to be not much of a deterent to stop young people from producing fake ID's as all they will get is a slap on the wrist, and clean record as an 18th B-day present. Perhaps you can clarify that for me.
Mike |
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| shawley |
quote:
Originally posted by lovinthespeed
thats y there only good in a liquar store and fuck people should learn to wait for the clubs much funnier with all friends anyways
i had a fake for like 6 months before i was 18 cus most of my buddies were 18/19
so went out with them
by time i was 18, i hated the bars lol, and they were just boreing
i don't get why people like going there weekend after weekend |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by GOT BOOST
Hi 180sxforthewin,
Not only bars will ask you to remove your ID but most FI's (Financial Institutions) will to. They want to verify your identity.
dtjohnst,
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not correct that if you are over the age of majority the record will stick if convicted. But if you are under the age of majority and a "Young Offender" The offence sticks till 18, then your record is wiped clean?
From my understanding that there appears to be not much of a deterent to stop young people from producing fake ID's as all they will get is a slap on the wrist, and clean record as an 18th B-day present. Perhaps you can clarify that for me.
Mike
You're operating under the impression that the rules and regulations set forth by the Young Offenders Act are still in place. The Young Offenders Act was repealed in 2002 by the now enacted Youth Criminal Justice Act. If anything, the new act is more strict in that a conviction under the Youth Criminal Justice Act isn't revealed to employers or anything like that during a standard criminal record check regardless of the age of the person. Be convicted at 14, apply for a job at 15, and your boss will never find out.
But. Border guards still see it, so travelling could be hard. Police and judges can still it, in case you ever go to court for something else later. Security Clearances will pick it up. And no matter how old are you get, it sticks with you.
One of the big problems with the Young Offenders Act was no accountability. A kid could steal cars, rob banks, do anything he wanted, and at 18 walk away and no one would be any the wiser (though the record still existed for judges to see, that was about it). That was due to the fact that a youth was never "convicted" or "sentenced" unless tried as an adult, but was instead given a "disposition". It kept everything off the radar.
But the government decided youth needed to learn there are consequences to the things they do, yet at the same time they needed to ensure that a child who was punished and rehabilitated didn't have to face the same hardships as a convicted adult, since the adult should have known better to begin with. Also, the YOA was really vaque in many respects.
So if you ever think of maybe one day having a job that will require any form of security clearance or enhanced reliability check, kiss it goodbye. Also remember, a 17 year old with a fake ID could easily be tried as an adult. At 17, you're smart enough to know fake ID's are illegal and there are consequences. Your punishment will likely be a fine and/or community service, but that will mean a full adult conviction, meaning it stick around forever, gets stapled to any job application that does a reliability check, etc.
So, while you wouldn't have a "criminal record" in the strictist sense, it does still affect you. I've read lots of websites in my day since 2002 which say the Youth Criminal Justice Act destroys records at age 18 (including wikipedia), but the the Act itself says the exact opposite. http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/Y-1.5/index.html |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
You're operating under the impression that the rules and regulations set forth by the Young Offenders Act are still in place. The Young Offenders Act was repealed in 2002 by the now enacted Youth Criminal Justice Act. If anything, the new act is more strict in that a conviction under the Youth Criminal Justice Act isn't revealed to employers or anything like that during a standard criminal record check regardless of the age of the person. Be convicted at 14, apply for a job at 15, and your boss will never find out.
........
Hi dtjohnst,
Thanks for clearing that up. I was still operating under the impression that the rules set forth by the Young Offenders Act were still in place. I did not realize that is was repealed in 2002. It has no effect on me, but it was more of an interest and information standpoint.
It is nice to see that any youth convicted of a crime will have the record show up at the border, and also that Police and Judges can see it currently after they reach the age of majority. :D
Mike |
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| Fish_e_o |
quote:
Originally posted by shawley
i had a fake for like 6 months before i was 18 cus most of my buddies were 18/19
so went out with them
by time i was 18, i hated the bars lol, and they were just boreing
i don't get why people like going there weekend after weekend
i got really drunk on my 18th birthday and broke my hand riding the bull at cook county...
then when i sobered up like 3 days later, i just thought "man bars are a joke"... when you really think about it they aren't that great..:dunno: |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by GOT BOOST
Hi dtjohnst,
Thanks for clearing that up. I was still operating under the impression that the rules set forth by the Young Offenders Act were still in place. I did not realize that is was repealed in 2002. It has no effect on me, but it was more of an interest and information standpoint.
It is nice to see that any youth convicted of a crime will have the record show up at the border, and also that Police and Judges can see it currently after they reach the age of majority. :D
Mike
Expect to see more changes ongoing. IIRC the Young Offenders Act was ammended in 1999 to stop wiping records clean, but I can't find any info to back that up, so it may be false. The Youth Criminal Justice Act has been ammended several times already. It's a delicate balance, and teens, as well as society as a whole, are evolving and changing so rapidly in "acceptable" behaviour and whatnot, it's hard for laws to keep pace.
It's not uncommon to find cocaine dealers under the age of 15 now. When I was on the job, I doubt there were any but pot dealers under 15 were a dime a dozen. When my old man was on the job, there weren't many of those. We're talking about 10-15 years time span, and 15 year olds have gone from saying "yes sir" to cops to "screw you pig", and from playing basketball in their spare time to pushing narcotics.
Not to mention youth-on-youth crime is higher than ever, parents are accepting less and less responsibility for the actions of their children, schools and other facilities are being stripped of their ability to discipline children, etc. The focus in lawmaking is shifting. Obviously putting kids behind bars isn't helping, largely because judges have a hard time sending a 12 year old to jail, even if he did rape the 10 year old. Maybe the judges are too old, or maybe we're failing our children somewhere else. So expect changes coming up that will possibly accord criminal records to parents of delinquent youth and have stricter non-incarceration penalties for both the parents and youth involved in youth crimes.
The switch to the Youth Criminal Justice Act was almost rushed in, to the point many people aren't aware the YOA is obselete now, so I wasn't surprised you were misinformed Mike. Anyone not directly affected by it likely had no idea. But it was done that way because they didn't want to delay. Things were getting worse way too quickly and they needed to start to slow the rate at which youth crime was increasing. The plan always was to continue ammending the YCJA until such time as the trend starts to reverse or a more effective and complete legislation could be put in place.
Regardless, I don't get the point of fake ID. Bars are boring. I thought that at 16, at 18 and I still think that. I also understand why they're restricting access. People get killed, beat up, whatever, and parents shouldn't have to deal with kids stumbling home drunk and bruised. And for buying beer.....well....I always found most parents were pretty reasonable. Have a few friends over, pass around some booze provided by a parent who's ensured the other parents consented. Perfectly legal, no one drives drunk, and if anything happens there's someone around who's seen enough binge drinking to know what to do.
Adults can barely comport themselves in a mature fashion at bars, the last thing they need is more non-adults in there adding to the immaturity. No offence to younguns, I do realize some under 18 are more mature than 30 year olds, I'm speaking in generalizations. |
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| Vive le Quebec |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Regardless, I don't get the point of fake ID. Bars are boring. I thought that at 16, at 18 and I still think that. I also understand why they're restricting access. People get killed, beat up, whatever, and parents shouldn't have to deal with kids stumbling home drunk and bruised. And for buying beer.....well....I always found most parents were pretty reasonable. Have a few friends over, pass around some booze provided by a parent who's ensured the other parents consented. Perfectly legal, no one drives drunk, and if anything happens there's someone around who's seen enough binge drinking to know what to do.
Adults can barely comport themselves in a mature fashion at bars, the last thing they need is more non-adults in there adding to the immaturity. No offence to younguns, I do realize some under 18 are more mature than 30 year olds, I'm speaking in generalizations.
agree with this quote in its entirety. |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Expect to see more changes ongoing. IIRC the Young Offenders Act was ammended in 1999 to stop wiping records clean, but I can't find any info to back that up, so it may be false. The Youth Criminal Justice Act has been ammended several times already. It's a delicate balance, and teens, as well as society as a whole, are evolving and changing so rapidly in "acceptable" behaviour and whatnot, it's hard for laws to keep pace.
It's not uncommon to find cocaine dealers under the age of 15 now. When I was on the job, I doubt there were any but pot dealers under 15 were a dime a dozen. When my old man was on the job, there weren't many of those. We're talking about 10-15 years time span, and 15 year olds have gone from saying "yes sir" to cops to "screw you pig", and from playing basketball in their spare time to pushing narcotics.
Not to mention youth-on-youth crime is higher than ever, parents are accepting less and less responsibility for the actions of their children, schools and other facilities are being stripped of their ability to discipline children, etc. The focus in lawmaking is shifting. Obviously putting kids behind bars isn't helping, largely because judges have a hard time sending a 12 year old to jail, even if he did rape the 10 year old. Maybe the judges are too old, or maybe we're failing our children somewhere else. So expect changes coming up that will possibly accord criminal records to parents of delinquent youth and have stricter non-incarceration penalties for both the parents and youth involved in youth crimes.
The switch to the Youth Criminal Justice Act was almost rushed in, to the point many people aren't aware the YOA is obselete now, so I wasn't surprised you were misinformed Mike. Anyone not directly affected by it likely had no idea. But it was done that way because they didn't want to delay. Things were getting worse way too quickly and they needed to start to slow the rate at which youth crime was increasing. The plan always was to continue ammending the YCJA until such time as the trend starts to reverse or a more effective and complete legislation could be put in place.
Regardless, I don't get the point of fake ID. Bars are boring. I thought that at 16, at 18 and I still think that. I also understand why they're restricting access. People get killed, beat up, whatever, and parents shouldn't have to deal with kids stumbling home drunk and bruised. And for buying beer.....well....I always found most parents were pretty reasonable. Have a few friends over, pass around some booze provided by a parent who's ensured the other parents consented. Perfectly legal, no one drives drunk, and if anything happens there's someone around who's seen enough binge drinking to know what to do.
Adults can barely comport themselves in a mature fashion at bars, the last thing they need is more non-adults in there adding to the immaturity. No offence to younguns, I do realize some under 18 are more mature than 30 year olds, I'm speaking in generalizations.
Hi dtjohnst,
That was very informative, thank you! :D I feel somewhat re assured that the government is looking at and taking steps to change the justice system as to how "Young Offenders" are dealt with. Come to think of it, I do recall hearing something about it along time ago but never really contemplated it that much.
I also agree that less responsibility and accountability to dicipline children is happening. Also that children and people as a whole are not taught respect. Respect seems to be lacking in this world. This seems to be something that society as a whole has accepted as the "Norm". This is not to discredit that where people live and the situations they are faced, both present and prior, and the people they associate with have impact on how they develop.
I do agree on the point on just putting kids behind bars is not effective on its own. They need to be educated early before the situation arises, and if the situation arises, then educated again with a record attached and maybe a stay in crowbar hotel. But this all would take alot of time, and money. Then raises the questions of "Who should take the responsibility to do it?" "Who will pay for it?" "Where do we put them" etc.
As for the bars, I have never really felt the attraction to them. They are all essentially the same if you break them down to the basics. Insanely loud music, and generally speaking, stinky drunk people. I still think that trying to get fake ID is rediculious.
I would rather use my money more effectively such building my investent portfolio, doing something fun and exciting or purchasing car upgrades. :D. However most of it goes to my investment portfolio! :D
Mike |
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| dc2696 |
quote:
Originally posted by shawley
i had a fake for like 6 months before i was 18 cus most of my buddies were 18/19
so went out with them
by time i was 18, i hated the bars lol, and they were just boreing
i don't get why people like going there weekend after weekend
word, bars=played out. |
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| 180sxforthewin |
| I had a freind who got his id taken by a cop and he only got a ticket and a court date i beleive. But I agree that bars are over hyped. We went out for a freind birthday the other day. Rather spend the money I would waste there on my car. Thats what I always say to my parents when they ask why I spend money on my car. |
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| Vive le Quebec |
quote:
Originally posted by 180sxforthewin
I had a freind who got his id taken by a cop and he only got a ticket and a court date i beleive. But I agree that bars are over hyped. We went out for a freind birthday the other day. Rather spend the money I would waste there on my car. Thats what I always say to my parents when they ask why I spend money on my car.
yup, instead of pursuing criminal charges, most of the time, a charge under the TSA (provincial legislation) is laid, since most of the time underage kids are not using fake ids to open bank accounts and funnel money under a different name...
as for the TSA, from what i recall, the ticket is $345...and there's a few different charges, one is possessing more than one operator's license (tehcnically hanging on to your friend's ID in the bar because he/she doesn't have pockets is illegal), another one is possessing an altered/mutilated operators license...there's a few others in there, but i don't remember them all. |
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| chico_kj_23 |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
they do have the authority to inspect the id to see if it is fake. If the Bar staff asks you to remove the ID from the puoch, You don't have to and no they don't have the authority to removce it them selves but If you refuse you'll surely get tossed. Do what they say as they have the ultamate power when you are in there establishment.
Cheers
I have to agree with this! |
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| DeathBy240 |
quote:
Originally posted by shawley
i had a fake for like 6 months before i was 18 cus most of my buddies were 18/19
so went out with them
by time i was 18, i hated the bars lol, and they were just boreing
i don't get why people like going there weekend after weekend
x2. Excpet I didn't have a fake. I let my facial hair grow and lived in Manitoba where they are WAY less strict. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
When I was 17 I was in the bar every Wednesday and Saturday, and 3 times on rememberance day... Never ID'd or anything, didn't even have a fake just incase.
Mind you I didn't drink, but still I coulda.
:P It's called walking into the bar in full army baggy greens, along with 20 other people in baggy greens
My unit went to the bar after parade. :cool: |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
When I was 17 I was in the bar every Wednesday and Saturday, and 3 times on rememberance day... Never ID'd or anything, didn't even have a fake just incase.
Mind you I didn't drink, but still I coulda.
:P It's called walking into the bar in full army baggy greens, along with 20 other people in baggy greens
My unit went to the bar after parade. :cool:
You must be old to call them baggy greens. I haven't heard that in YEARS. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
You must be old to call them baggy greens. I haven't heard that in YEARS.
LOL, they only started with the new computerized cammo gear 98ish, my Helmet was the new style, but my combats where stillt he baggy greens.
I'm only 26 heh, yup yup yup old in my wisdom of a quarter century.
Twas fun though tomenting door men though, when I did turn 18, my now wife(who is older than I) took me to bars for my B-day, when I got ID'd I handed them my military ID, they'd flip it over a few dozen times looking for the DOB(which was on there) couldn't find it, they'd look at me funny, and all I would say, is "Is says I'm in the army" they'd ponder for a second and let me in heh. Even though it was my 18th I still wasn't drinking. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
LOL, they only started with the new computerized cammo gear 98ish, my Helmet was the new style, but my combats where stillt he baggy greens.
I'm only 26 heh, yup yup yup old in my wisdom of a quarter century.
Twas fun though tomenting door men though, when I did turn 18, my now wife(who is older than I) took me to bars for my B-day, when I got ID'd I handed them my military ID, they'd flip it over a few dozen times looking for the DOB(which was on there) couldn't find it, they'd look at me funny, and all I would say, is "Is says I'm in the army" they'd ponder for a second and let me in heh. Even though it was my 18th I still wasn't drinking.
I got in before CADPAT too (shit I was in before they got rid of Garrison dress and the tan DEU's), and the only people I ever heard call them baggy greens were my dad's friends. I figured you must've been old, but I guess you were just in a strange unit. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
I got in before CADPAT too (shit I was in before they got rid of Garrison dress and the tan DEU's), and the only people I ever heard call them baggy greens were my dad's friends. I figured you must've been old, but I guess you were just in a strange unit.
8-FER - 8th Field Engineer Regiment. Our clerk where wearing the tan uniforms when I was in. |
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