| ReasonOne |
I was inspired by onestepback's post secondary thread. Kudos for an interesting subject. I'd like to hear people's responses to the above question.
When I was a lot younger I dated a girl who's parents thought if you didn't have that degree under your belt, you were nothing. They gave me very hard time about not having that magic piece of paper to the point that it really pissed me off. They never bothered to ask if I had any other education and they assumed I only had my high school diploma.
Why does a college or university degree really mean that much to some people? Thoughts? |
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| HEWSINATOR |
| The fact of the matter is that it is an easy indicator to use to judge one's capabilities. Not saying it is the best or only, but... |
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| TrevorK |
I've meet many people who look down on those without university degrees. They feel that the only way to become a success is to start with a degree.
The sad part is, these parents often push their children into taking a university education that the child has absolutely no desire for. Many people pick a general faculty and hope to find something they like, rather than doing research first and selecting something from the onset. This would give a greater chance of doing something they liked, rather than doing something because they had to pick something.
I meet many of these people daily, the ones that go to the UofA for 4 years, then head over to NAIT to get a diploma/job they want rather than a degree which was pushed upon them.
I also agree that the degree is an indicator of your capabilities. However, only foolish HR people would use it as a sole criteria for picking between two candidates. |
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| GT34 |
IMO, university degrees are only bennificial in the eyes of the beholder. If the career you've been hoping for your whole life requires you to have a degree, then university is the way to go. Seems pretty basic. You need a degree = go to university. But what I'm getting at is the people that are going to university that have no idea what they're planning on doing for a career and are just simply doing it for a post secondary education.
I've talked to people that are $40k in debt and have a degree in math but still have no idea what they want for a career. That doesn't make any sense to me. They could have been working at a dead-end job, making money, and thinking about what they would like to do for for a real career. Even if it doesn't pay well as long as they pick something they like, they'll be satisfied with it until retirement.
Doing something you love to do and getting paid for it is the best thing you can have going for yourself. I'm trying to get on with the Edmonton Fire Dept and I love doing fire drills and practice rescues. I'm not going to get stinkin rich doing it, but it's what I love doing and can't wait to get paid to do it. |
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| ChromeDragon |
If they feel that the only people of worth are college or university graduates we need only look at two people.
High school dropout.
University graduate
Judging someone purely based on their formal education is downright ignorant. Some of the greatest minds throughout time received little to no formal educational training. Frankly if they actually brought something like this up I wouldn't hesitate to confront them on the issue. I hate smug people that think simply because they have a degree the world should be handed to them on a platter because they are superior human beings.
Go ask the dozens of buskers on Whyte Ave. how well their degrees are working out for them. Better yet, have these people go down there and explain to the people begging for change to buy food/drugs/shelter why they are superior to the other people begging for change because they spent four years sitting in a classroom racking up debt.
It all goes back to not judging a book by its cover. Just because someone has a nice shiny degree doesn't mean they aren't the biggest fuckup in the history of the planet. |
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| the_saint |
Converesely, I have met people who felt that I being educated made you a "snob". Always nice to prove them wrong.
haha
Reverse discrimination.
I think people who look down on people b/c of their "lack" of formal education are missing out on getting to know alot of interesting people.
Trying to judge people purely on their education is unfortunately a reality, whether it is wrong or right. :(
Depending on your field of work, your edumacation :) will definitely reflect what your "base" knowledge and skills. But at the end of the day, how you are able to apply what you know and can do is what matters.
Even with the best education if you can't apply anything that it is useless.
Conversely, a person can learn all the necessary skills on their own, and on the job.
Having the best educational pedigree and a pile of degrees is meaningless if you cannot apply your knowledge, problem solve, or find ways of improving.
thesaint |
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| GTS Jeff |
I think higher education means a lot, maybe not in terms of finding a job, but solely for the purpose of enlightenment. Education teaches a person how to think critically. I've met many educated and uneducated people and there is usually a pretty big difference in how they think, act, and react. I'm not saying there aren't educated idiots or uneducated geniuses, I'm just saying that a person is better off with an education than without one.
Fair? |
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| the_saint |
quote:
Originally posted by GTS Jeff
I think higher education means a lot, maybe not in terms of finding a job, but solely for the purpose of enlightenment. Education teaches a person how to think critically. I've met many educated and uneducated people and there is usually a pretty big difference in how they think, act, and react. I'm not saying there aren't educated idiots or uneducated geniuses, I'm just saying that a person is better off with an education than without one.
Fair?
I agree with your line of thinking. This is definitely the case depending on what area of education your are discussing. |
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| Flex |
sure......I'm a Power Engineer, that is the diploma I have and thats what it states I am. Also Im registered with ABSA with the government of alberta and that is what they have me registered as also.
Now Peng engineers get so pissed that we are call engineers and say how we dont deserve to be called engineers and such. I get that all the time. Which in reality I dont really care but they sure do. They basically have the attitude we are nothing and not worthy being called engineers because we didnt go to school as long as them.
But then what really burns their ass is I make more money then them....so they can have their engineer title and their pissy Im better then you attitude......:D |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
I didn't read everything.. but...
I'm a techie who works at a university, I'm only on the helpdesk now, it was a way in. Quite often the acedemics look at us uneducated people and talk down to us, until they need our help.
And because I work at a university, I'm in a "support" position, to move anywhere up, it'll be a professional position, and even though I can do the job, I can't apply because I don't have a degree, being an educational instution, they have to take the edumacated person over the technically qualified person. One bonus though, I can work at a degree for relatively free an employment perk. I can take 1 3 credit or 6 credit or something course a year for free. |
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| Supra_devil |
i get the "dumb tradesman" look sometimes, most of my co-workers always ask me why i'm not in university right now, they all say i can do much better. I like my job though.
Theres lots of educated idiots, and lots of uneducated geniuses, i treat every person like a new book, i open a fresh page on each one and make my opinion of them on what i see, not what i have seen in the past. |
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| Mobius |
| I really dislike people who talk down about tradesworkers, or anyone who isn't a university graduate. I'd like to see half of those people pick up their own garbage, or plumb their own beachhouses or wire their own hot tubs. Although, then we wouldn't be able to charge top dollar to do those things for them. |
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| Stainless |
quote:
Originally posted by Mobius
I really dislike people who talk down about tradesworkers, or anyone who isn't a university graduate. I'd like to see half of those people pick up their own garbage, or plumb their own beachhouses or wire their own hot tubs. Although, then we wouldn't be able to charge top dollar to do those things for them.
Ironically, us "dumb" tradeworkers/blue collar often make a lot more then our customers, especially in Alberta. |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by Flex
But then what really burns their ass is I make more money then them....so they can have their engineer title and their pissy Im better then you attitude......:D
You make more with your Diploma than an Engineer with a degree? (Same experience?)
I'd like to know who you work for... |
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| Flex |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
You make more with your Diploma than an Engineer with a degree? (Same experience?)
I'd like to know who you work for...
not all engineers but I have a few friends that are and I make more then all of them.........:thumbup: |
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| ehos |
| Your friends need to find better jobs. |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Your friends need to find better jobs.
ROFL.... thats what I was thinking.
Power Engineers make some great coin in this province..... but the long term potential earning power of an engineer is greater. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
You make more with your Diploma than an Engineer with a degree? (Same experience?)
I'd like to know who you work for...
You can't even compare them. Its totally different.
The "Power Engineering" program is not actually Engineering at all. Its just a title (I have no idea WHY its called Power Engineering), but you become an "Operator" with that program/diploma.
Generally speaking "Engineer" = Professional Engineer,
not Power Engineer, not Software Engineer, not Genetic Engineer, not Sound Engineer, etc. (or at least that is what APEGGA would want you to believe).
You cannot compare the job tasks or the educational requirements for "Operators" and "Professional Engineers". Apples to Oranges...
And yes, until Engineers become specialists or managment level, Operators will make more. This is no secret. But a big part of that is overtime. For the most part Engineers work a 40 hour desk job and also have little (or less) exposure to risk in the field. They also don't get paid "overtime" premiums or shift premiums for extra work, whereas operators do. |
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| JustinL |
This, like most things in life has more variation among than between. There are lots of smart trades people who like to work with their hands... there are lots of stupid grad students who manage to work their way through a Bachelor's degree.
Trying to classify people is much easier for most people to deal with, rather than taking each person as an individual and actually finding out something about their character. I'm sure people pre-judge me as much as a person who has no post secondary.
As far as employability, a degree just shows that you have the ability to handle a large mental workload and that you have a certain level of understanding of the subject matter. It doesn't speak at all to your level of interpersonal skill, creativity, physical skill... or any other traits that make someone a good employee.
IMHO |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
You can't even compare them. Its totally different.
The "Power Engineering" program is not actually Engineering at all. Its just a title (I have no idea WHY its called Power Engineering), but you become an "Operator" with that program/diploma.
Generally speaking "Engineer" = Professional Engineer,
not Power Engineer, not Software Engineer, not Genetic Engineer, not Sound Engineer, etc. (or at least that is what APEGGA would want you to believe).
You cannot compare the job tasks or the educational requirements for "Operators" and "Professional Engineers". Apples to Oranges...
And yes, until Engineers become specialists or managment level, Operators will make more. This is no secret. But a big part of that is overtime. For the most part Engineers work a 40 hour desk job and also have little (or less) exposure to risk in the field. They also don't get paid "overtime" premiums or shift premiums for extra work, whereas operators do.
Obviously you have no idea what other things a Power Engineer does.
Yes the majority of them run Power Plants and etc.
But most of them are also in management, doing a 9-5 job, and on projects, or being Cheif Engineers for the plant. Power Engineers, help Engineer boilers, and pressure vessels, and many other things.
If you are telling me the education requirements for being a Professional Engineer as opposed to a 1st Class Power Engineer are non-equivalent or remotely as hard as each other, I beg to differ.
Look into what it takes to become a Nuclear Power Plant Power Engineer/Operator and get back to me.
Most 1st Class Cheif Engineers I know, are University Graduates/Professional Engineers, and have told me the education requirements are just as hard.
The education is very demanding, and hard.
Would you just trust some numb nut, to produce all of the Power in Canada? And risk boiler explosions, and failures, etc. Just like what happened in Chernobyl?
Too me it seems you are one of those who hate us being called Engineers.
APEGA has tried to remove that title from us, but it has never happened. |
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| Insomniac |
| here we go again :rolleyes: |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
here we go again :rolleyes:
Hhaha honestly, I thought the same thing.:D |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
All I know is my global cert of MCSE is Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is different here in Canada, here it's Microsoft Certifies Systems Expert.
And really I could care less, I just think it's funny. I work at a Universty and we have people who's job titles are: Systems Analyst/ Web Software Engineer. I was joking the other day about if I should raise a stink over it. |
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| stealth |
| Me honestly I don't care. Call me a prostitute for all I care:D I just like the discussion once its brought up:thumbup: |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
Obviously you have no idea what other things a Power Engineer does.
Yes the majority of them run Power Plants and etc.
But most of them are also in management, doing a 9-5 job, and on projects, or being Cheif Engineers for the plant. Power Engineers, help Engineer boilers, and pressure vessels, and many other things.
If you are telling me the education requirements for being a Professional Engineer as opposed to a 1st Class Power Engineer are non-equivalent or remotely as hard as each other, I beg to differ.
Look into what it takes to become a Nuclear Power Plant Power Engineer/Operator and get back to me.
Most 1st Class Cheif Engineers I know, are University Graduates/Professional Engineers, and have told me the education requirements are just as hard.
The education is very demanding, and hard.
Would you just trust some numb nut, to produce all of the Power in Canada? And risk boiler explosions, and failures, etc. Just like what happened in Chernobyl?
Too me it seems you are one of those who hate us being called Engineers.
APEGA has tried to remove that title from us, but it has never happened.
You need to work on your reading comprehension. Nowhere did I state or imply that one is harder or easier than the other. I was highlighting that there are *differences* not the relative difficulties.
The jobs are not the same, the education is not the same, the exposure is not the same, the training is not the same... and hence the PAY is not the same.
Where in ANY of that did you read that I somehow look down on (?) Operators? If you choose to judge me that's your business. But I've worked along side a lot of Operators in my time and I understand their roles and responsibilities just fine and respect what they do.
(Where's Rad when I need him? I think he would understand where I was coming from...)
And why would you pick the "1st Class" guys as your example to compare with a 'typical' Professional Engineer? How many guys with their 1st Class do you typically have on a given Refinery site, and on site on a given shift? How many people that graduate with their Power Engineering diplomas go on to complete their 1st Class? |
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| Insomniac |
I don't have much to say about the power engineer thing but that I had a friend in school who was a power engineer up till the age of about 24 when he decided to quit his job and do Mechanical Engineering.
He was probably the brightest classmate I had, really a diamond in the rough.
He told me that he quit his job because it was boring, but went back every summer to work and made a freaking killing in the 4 months of summer. He also told me that engineering was way harder than the course he took, I don't think there is a dispute about that.
Seems to me that a power engineering is more suited to a guy who wants to do nothing all day, and make lots of money. Kinda like the stereotypical union gig. |
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| stealth |
Hhehe, I never said that you looked down on us. Nor am I judging you.
Just you say we don't Engineer, when in fact we do, according to dictionary definition.
In answer to your question from my experience every day I worked I had five 1st Class Engineers on a shift. 4 Would be in their office, one would be operating. And that would be at my site.
Througout the whole Plant Site, in total there would be about ~12-15 1st Class Operators working everyday.
As for choosing a 1st with a Pro. It was what I deemed fit. As I believe both take a minimum of 6 years to obtain.
But yes, I agree it is comparing Apples to Oranges.
:blue: |
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| Insomniac |
Stealth, excuse me, but i am dumb
Can you tell me the following:
- what minimum grades/classes are required to get into PE
- how long is the course
- what are the different levels
(i purposely wrote the post with shitty engineering gramar and spellling ;)) |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
In answer to your question from my experience every day I worked I had five 1st Class Engineers on a shift. 4 Would be in their office, one would be operating. And that would be at my site.
Througout the whole Plant Site, in total there would be about ~12-15 1st Class Operators working everyday.
Hmm... I guess I have to ask what industry do you work in? Is this a power plant or a process plant (ie. refinery or upgrader)? My understanding for the latter was that you didn't typically have a lot of 1st Class tickets around. But I could see that differing depending on the type of plant. |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
Hmm... I guess I have to ask what industry do you work in? Is this a power plant or a process plant (ie. refinery or upgrader)? My understanding for the latter was that you didn't typically have a lot of 1st Class tickets around. But I could see that differing depending on the type of plant.
It was both actually. A Petro-Chemical plant. DOW Chemical. I was in the Power Plant.
And Insomniac it is dependant on what you want to become.
The levels are 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. 1st takes about 6-7 years, if you are keen and work hard.
As for grades, I belive it was a 85% average out of highschool last year with all pure courses. Don't quote me on that, but thats what I was told.
Since we killed this thread, I will try to revive it.
No one has ever looked down on me in regards to Education.
Like others have said, its an easy way of seeing what you made of yourself in life. In terms of success.
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| Insomniac |
| what level are you? how much schooling did you take? |
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| POX |
| any of you Power guys work at genesee or sundance? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
It was both actually. A Petro-Chemical plant. DOW Chemical. I was in the Power Plant.
Ah.. ok. I've never worked for DOW and since I'm a Chemical Engineer, my involvement with 'Power' systems is usually limited.
I could be wrong but when I worked on the Shell Upgrader commissioning and start-up a few years ago, which included a CoGen unit, my impression was they only had ONE 1st Class on the whole site at that time (maybe two...?, NOT including whatever they had on the Refinery side).
Unless I misunderstood. :dunno:
Depending on the type of facility an operating company would likely only hire as many Operators of each level as they *need*, otherwise they'd be paying higher salaries than they could get away with. |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
Ah.. ok. I've never worked for DOW and since I'm a Chemical Engineer, my involvement with 'Power' systems is usually limited.
I could be wrong but when I worked on the Shell Upgrader commissioning and start-up a few years ago, which included a CoGen unit, my impression was they only had ONE 1st Class on the whole site at that time (maybe two...?, NOT including whatever they had on the Refinery side).
Unless I misunderstood. :dunno:
Depending on the type of facility an operating company would likely only hire as many Operators of each level as they *need*, otherwise they'd be paying higher salaries than they could get away with.
You only need one first class for EACH different plant. He does not need to be there all the time, just be there 9-5 mon-fri.
But yea, if they have a co-gen running and that is his site, they only need one.
But if they have another process on the other side of the site, say 5 km's down the road, they need another Chief Engineer there.
At DOW, they have 5 or 6 plants situated in the site each with a different process. Each doing their own thing. Thus requiring one Cheif for each of them.
At my site we had extras because they believed a 1st Class was the proper person to fulfill the role of whatever management position they had.
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
You only need one first class for EACH different plant. He does not need to be there all the time, just be there 9-5 mon-fri.
But yea, if they have a co-gen running and that is his site, they only need one.
But if they have another process on the other side of the site, say 5 km's down the road, they need another Chief Engineer there.
At DOW, they have 5 or 6 plants situated in the site each with a different process. Each doing their own thing. Thus requiring one Cheif for each of them.
At my site we had extras because they believed a 1st Class was the proper person to fulfill the role of whatever management position they had.
\
Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:
And btw, I meant no disrespect to your occupation earlier. :beer: |
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| Insomniac |
Ok, now we are totally off topic.
I don't look down on other people, based on their education. There are a lot of smart trades people out there, and a lot of really dumb university level people.
Overall, I'd give the edge to people with a degree, but it is completely unfair to assume anything or generalize. |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
Ok, now we are totally off topic.
I don't look down on other people, based on their education. There are a lot of smart trades people out there, and a lot of really dumb university level people.
Overall, I'd give the edge to people with a degree, but it is completely unfair to assume anything or generalize.
I won't look down on anyone based on their education.
But believe the more education you have, the better it is.
How do you guys look at a person like Ralph Klein, with a grade 8 education or whatever it may be? But with a job like his.
None taken Inzane, same here.:thumbup: |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
Ok, now we are totally off topic.
I don't look down on other people, based on their education. There are a lot of smart trades people out there, and a lot of really dumb university level people.
Overall, I'd give the edge to people with a degree, but it is completely unfair to assume anything or generalize.
Thats kinda like the commercials on the radio right now about how the trades person looks up to the engeneer/arcitech because he designs the shit and the engineer/whatever looks up to the trades person cause they build what he designs.
It's kinda like sure you can design fancy shit, but without me to build it, who cares.
BTW my Father is a 35yr journey man carpenter, my grandfather was one too. My grandfather might have been a Master carpenter. Me, I have enough experiance and unofficial training I could walk into 3rd year without any problems, I was practically born and raised on a construction site.
But as I kinda said before, the few people who have looked down at me sure change their tone when their computer crashes and they need me to fix it, or they see me at the gas station, and see my trailer full of building materials(lumber, etc) They seem to be impressed by the multi-facetted bit. |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
I won't look down on anyone based on their education.
But believe the more education you have, the better it is.
How do you guys look at a person like Ralph Klein, with a grade 8 education or whatever it may be? But with a job like his.
None taken Inzane, same here.:thumbup:
Haha, Ralph Klein isn't exactly one I would argue for succeeding with little education. Yes he has managed to fall ass backwards into money over the years, but a drunk monkey could run this province with a surplus ... oh wait, one has been for over a decade.:p |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
Haha, Ralph Klein isn't exactly one I would argue for succeeding with little education. Yes he has managed to fall ass backwards into money over the years, but a drunk monkey could run this province with a surplus ... oh wait, one has been for over a decade.:p
But would you look down on him, based on his education?
Say you put all of his drunkeness aside would your opinion change?
HAHA he is a terrible example of one who has had success with little education. |
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