| l8rm8 |
| Is it illegal to change your steering wheel when your car is factory equipped with air bags? I've heard that you can write in a letter to explain why you want to change your wheel or remove your air bag and they sent back a paper to make it legal in your car. I am not sure if this is just in Ontario or Canada wide. The reason for asking is not just for my self but my wife is 5'1" and sits against the wheel in her RSX. If the air bags go off, they would seriously injure/kill her. They don't function properly for those who are vertically challenged. |
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| STiPWR |
tell your wife to stop drinking coffee:D
No on a serious note,
I dont know if you are legally allowed to remove it yourself, but a dealership is allowed to put an On/Off switch on the airbag if you fall under one of these guidlines...
-Those who cannot avoid placing rear-facing infant seats in the front seat
-Those who cannot adjust their driving position to keep back at least 10 inches from the steering wheel
-Those who cannot avoid situations, such as car pools, that require a child age 12 or under to ride in the front seat
-Those who have a medical condition that places them at some specific risk
Your wife would fall under the 10inch rule by the sounds of it, I would contact your dealership for more accurate info.
But you have to look at it this way... Would you rather your wife chance it with a airbag (whiplash, bruising)or a steeringwheel/windshield? (dental, reconstructive surgery) |
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| stybscelica |
yes it is illeagal to remove the Airbag in any vehicle that is equipped with it, that vehicle is crash rated and saftey approved to be on Candain roads with a properly operating air bag. Thus remove the airbag and you will be towed by any officer that knows what he is doing, as your vehicle is no longer able to be legally operated on canadian roads because it no longer meets minimun crash safety standards.
I'd list all of the appropriate sections of saftey equipment legislation but i don't have all day. Take it from me as i've yanked a couple of cars for that reason.
Cheers |
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| shawley |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
yes it is illeagal to remove the Airbag in any vehicle that is equipped with it, that vehicle is crash rated and saftey approved to be on Candain roads with a properly operating air bag. Thus remove the airbag and you will be towed by any officer that knows what he is doing, as your vehicle is no longer able to be legally operated on canadian roads because it no longer meets minimun crash safety standards.
I'd list all of the appropriate sections of saftey equipment legislation but i don't have all day. Take it from me as i've yanked a couple of cars for that reason.
Cheers
what if it's 15 years old?? and imported? |
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| EDISKRAD EHT |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
. Take it from me as i've yanked a couple of cars for that reason.
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| 86lx |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
yes it is illeagal to remove the Airbag in any vehicle that is equipped with it, that vehicle is crash rated and saftey approved to be on Candain roads with a properly operating air bag. Thus remove the airbag and you will be towed by any officer that knows what he is doing, as your vehicle is no longer able to be legally operated on canadian roads because it no longer meets minimun crash safety standards.
I'd list all of the appropriate sections of saftey equipment legislation but i don't have all day. Take it from me as i've yanked a couple of cars for that reason.
Cheers
Unfortunately there are too many Internet Lawyers out there, so if it is as you say, then you won't have problems quoting the appropriate sections of the legislation that prevents an individual from doing this. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
The alberta vehicle regs actually say nothing about air bags.
The closed is this, but it's not close enough.
quote:
Required maintenance
3 If a motor vehicle has the following equipment or safety system installed by the manufacturer of that vehicle, the equipment or system must be maintained in good working order:
(a) an anti‑lock braking system;
(b) daytime running lamps;
(c) a centre high mounted brake lamp.
Standard 108 of the federal regs say nothing about air bags
AB TSA doesn't specifically say anything bout airbags either.
Sooo if your car never had airbags.. no biggie, if it has airbags I can't see any law that they could nail you for unless there's a general one that I missed(I'm at work so I did a quick search) that says something like "Thou shalt not remove factory installed safety equipment" but you would figure that would be included in what I quoted above.
stybscelica - if you could post at least what regulation I could find said law in that would help |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
The alberta vehicle regs actually say nothing about air bags.
The closed is this, but it's not close enough.
Standard 108 of the federal regs say nothing about air bags
AB TSA doesn't specifically say anything bout airbags either.
Sooo if your car never had airbags.. no biggie, if it has airbags I can't see any law that they could nail you for unless there's a general one that I missed(I'm at work so I did a quick search) that says something like "Thou shalt not remove factory installed safety equipment" but you would figure that would be included in what I quoted above.
stybscelica - if you could post at least what regulation I could find said law in that would help
Argh. The infamous TSD 108. I've said it numerous times before, I'll say it again.
TSD 108 applies to manufacturers and importers of vehicles and vehicle equipment. People need to quit wasting time reading and quoting it. Read the top of it, it says "Motor Vehicle Safety Act Standard 108". MVSA is "An Act to regulate the manufacture and importation of motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment to reduce the risk of death, injury and damage to property and the environment." Please, let the thing die in peace.
One of my pet peeves is not reading enabling regulations for scope before blindly saying something applies, especially since I know I've mentioned this to SilverNeonRacer before.
I'd look it up and see what I could find, but I gotta get to work. If I'm done early enough that I can do some research and still get a decent night's sleep, I will. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Argh. The infamous TSD 108. I've said it numerous times before, I'll say it again.
TSD 108 applies to manufacturers and importers of vehicles and vehicle equipment. People need to quit wasting time reading and quoting it. Read the top of it, it says "Motor Vehicle Safety Act Standard 108". MVSA is "An Act to regulate the manufacture and importation of motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment to reduce the risk of death, injury and damage to property and the environment." Please, let the thing die in peace.
One of my pet peeves is not reading enabling regulations for scope before blindly saying something applies, especially since I know I've mentioned this to SilverNeonRacer before.
I'd look it up and see what I could find, but I gotta get to work. If I'm done early enough that I can do some research and still get a decent night's sleep, I will.
Sorry, I know you've said it many many times. But I find it hard to believe what you say whenthe Alberta Vehicle regs say this:
quote:
General standards
4(1) The following standards respecting lamps on vehicles are adopted and apply to a light or lamp incorporated in or attached to a vehicle:
(a) section 108 of the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), including Technical Standards Document No. 108;
My interpretation of that means is under the Alberta vehicle regs they can write me a ticket for anything in the section 108 regs.
Trust me I would love for you to be right it would make things so much simpler, but with section 4(1)(a) it's still hard to swallow what our saying. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
Sorry, I know you've said it many many times. But I find it hard to believe what you say whenthe Alberta Vehicle regs say this:
4(1) The following standards respecting lamps on vehicles are adopted and apply to a light or lamp incorporated in or attached to a vehicle:
(a) section 108 of the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), including Technical Standards Document No. 108;
My interpretation of that means is under the Alberta vehicle regs they can write me a ticket for anything in the section 108 regs.
Trust me I would love for you to be right it would make things so much simpler, but with section 4(1)(a) it's still hard to swallow what our saying.
Yes....and? All that says is that lamps must meet some certification standard, and the chosen standard for normal lamps is the TSD 108 standard. If that line meant that TSD108 applied in it's entirety, then the Vehicle Equipment Regulations violate the Constitution of Canada. TSD 108 says front turn signals MUST be amber. But then 23(2)(c) says they must be amber or white. An act may never contradict itself. Look at the rest of the subparas in part 4 of the VER. They're all standards for certification, not laws on what equipment is allowable or not. You may not install a lamp that doesn't meet those testing standards in that section. Luckily, it's illegal for someone to sell it too. Let them write their tickets, but it'll be tossed pretty quick if you comply with the VER's. |
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| stybscelica |
MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT
Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations
Safety and Emission Requirements
5. (1) Each requirement set out in Schedules IV to VI is prescribed as a Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard for vehicles of prescribed classes.
(2) Subject to subsection (2.1), every vehicle of a prescribed class that is a completed vehicle shall conform to
(a) each standard referred to by number in column I of Schedule III, opposite which there is set out the letter "X" in the subcolumn designating that class or subclass of vehicle; and
Here is the colum and table of required safety equipment:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/m/mvsa/regulations/mvsrg/schedules/001/mvsrsiii.html
Standard 208
http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulation...00/mvsr208.html
Happy yet |
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| stybscelica |
Oh i forgot
Traffic safety act
Equipment standards
65(1) Except as otherwise permitted under this Act, a person shall not do any of the following:
(a) drive or operate a vehicle on a highway unless that vehicle complies with the vehicle and equipment standards set out in the regulations in respect of that vehicle;
(b) permit another person to drive or operate a vehicle on a highway unless that vehicle complies with the vehicle and equipment standards set out in the regulations in respect of that vehicle;
(c) where that person is the owner of a vehicle, drive or operate the vehicle on a highway unless the vehicle and its equipment are maintained
(i) in good working order, and
(ii) in a condition that meets the requirements of this Act; |
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| MX5 Miata Guy |
| You can do it to your own car, providing you're forever and a day, the only person to drive it. Can't loan it to anybody...else they're injured in any way in any type of incident where they can point to the fact that the car didn't have an airbag when it was supposed to...and your a$$ is grass. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
Yeah the standard 208 is for new vehicles not exsisting ones much like the standard 108..
Cause after reading the 208 there, there is nothing that specified when it was impements for airbags cause if an Officer could ticket on section 208, why isn't everybody with older cars not getting tickets or being told they have to install air bags.
The TSA basically says if it's there it has to work, nothing saying you can't remove it. The alberta one says if your car came with ABS, etc, etc you can't turf it.. but it doesn't say that for airbags.
I swear there should be some traffic commitee that an average Joe can go to, explain the situation, what they want to do why, they say yay or nay, either way there is a paper trail so if they say yay, and you get tickets for it you present the paper work from them and it gets tossed.
Not this one cop says one thing and another says different, one Judge this that one says that crap. Cause last I checked "I popped into the Police station on 50st on the north side and the desk sergent said it would be legal" isn't gonna win you any points in court.
***EDIT*** I felt I should add, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of any officers who post up here, just the damn law is so open to interpretation it's annoying, I read it I see one thing, you read you see something else, and a judge might see even something else. The laws should be cut and dry, you CAN do this, if it's not listed here, it's illegal. |
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| l8rm8 |
| Well I would hate to have my car towed becuase of the steering wheel.... so I think I will just leave it on. Or change it and put the stock one with tools in the trunk just in case... hahaha j/k my wife doesn't know how to use a screw driver... |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
Yeah the standard 208 is for new vehicles not exsisting ones much like the standard 108..
Cause after reading the 208 there, there is nothing that specified when it was impements for airbags cause if an Officer could ticket on section 208, why isn't everybody with older cars not getting tickets or being told they have to install air bags.
The TSA basically says if it's there it has to work, nothing saying you can't remove it. The alberta one says if your car came with ABS, etc, etc you can't turf it.. but it doesn't say that for airbags.
I swear there should be some traffic commitee that an average Joe can go to, explain the situation, what they want to do why, they say yay or nay, either way there is a paper trail so if they say yay, and you get tickets for it you present the paper work from them and it gets tossed.
Not this one cop says one thing and another says different, one Judge this that one says that crap. Cause last I checked "I popped into the Police station on 50st on the north side and the desk sergent said it would be legal" isn't gonna win you any points in court.
***EDIT*** I felt I should add, I'm not trying to be disrespectful of any officers who post up here, just the damn law is so open to interpretation it's annoying, I read it I see one thing, you read you see something else, and a judge might see even something else. The laws should be cut and dry, you CAN do this, if it's not listed here, it's illegal.
True. But like life, everything is shades of grey.
I would think you can remove an airbag because you can disable it in some cars. I agree that the regs say equipment must be kept in good working order, but it doesn't say you can't remove parts. With the exception of certain ones.
Anything enabled by the MVSR applies to car manufacturers and importers only. Not car owners. So I disagree with the quotes from 108 and 208. The quotes from the TSA don't say you can't remove equipment. I think Stybcelica is laying the framework for it being illegal to remove, but I'm not convinced yet. There should be something more explicit.
In cases like this, where you read everything and it's in the grey, you should be able to argue mistake of the law in court. That in itself should be enough. Unless the judge whips out something that says "airbags may not be removed" showing ignorance of.
However, having said that, I think there's a degree of "common sense" required. A judge could easily say "Airbags are an important safety feature. Any reasonable person should know that safety features shouldn't be removed." In which case, he's got you.
My question to you would be why do you want to remove it? In the common sense argument, that's what a judge would want to know. If you have a good reason, you're safe. If you say "Yo dawg, this here steering wheel is tite! It's way hotter than that lamo OEM shit." I don't think you'll have much of a chance. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
However, having said that, I think there's a degree of "common sense" required. A judge could easily say "Airbags are an important safety feature. Any reasonable person should know that safety features shouldn't be removed." In which case, he's got you.
My question to you would be why do you want to remove it? In the common sense argument, that's what a judge would want to know. If you have a good reason, you're safe. If you say "Yo dawg, this here steering wheel is tite! It's way hotter than that lamo OEM shit." I don't think you'll have much of a chance.
I think he mainly want's to remove it cause his wife is shorter, and probably sits closer to the wheel and he still wants to keep her around and thus doesn't want the air bag to take her head off.
And him, he could probably care less.
Just my speculation.
Me I was in a car I smoked another car(he did an "unsafe left turn" in front of me, and was ticketed for it) doing 60km/h I buggered my shoulder, bent my steering wheel, the other car was inside out pretty much and my air bag never went off... Based on that accident and others I've been in, it would have to be a hiway head on head with another car before an airbag would be of any use to be, anything bigger than another car and I'd be dead so it wouldn't help. |
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| l8rm8 |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
I think he mainly want's to remove it cause his wife is shorter, and probably sits closer to the wheel and he still wants to keep her around and thus doesn't want the air bag to take her head off.
And him, he could probably care less.
Just my speculation.
Me I was in a car I smoked another car(he did an "unsafe left turn" in front of me, and was ticketed for it) doing 60km/h I buggered my shoulder, bent my steering wheel, the other car was inside out pretty much and my air bag never went off... Based on that accident and others I've been in, it would have to be a hiway head on head with another car before an airbag would be of any use to be, anything bigger than another car and I'd be dead so it wouldn't help.
Well if any of you own or have been in an rsx, move the seat all the way forwards. Then try to sit in it, or picture someone sitting in it. It's close, very close. I have heard at that close a air bag will do more damage then good.(could be wrong) Or let's say it was a smaller wreck but triggered the sensors jut right... then instead of bumps and bruises and maybe some teeth, she's left with a destroyed face. This is what concerns me. thats all. If we can disable the air bag, why not change the wheel. Thats all. |
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| STiPWR |
quote:
Originally posted by l8rm8
Well if any of you own or have been in an rsx, move the seat all the way forwards. Then try to sit in it, or picture someone sitting in it. It's close, very close. I have heard at that close a air bag will do more damage then good.(could be wrong) Or let's say it was a smaller wreck but triggered the sensors jut right... then instead of bumps and bruises and maybe some teeth, she's left with a destroyed face. This is what concerns me. thats all. If we can disable the air bag, why not change the wheel. Thats all.
Because you cant prove that she's the only driver.
Just take the damn momo steering wheel that you bought already and install it.
There is a million laws and from what I've noticed with my "illegal" installs is that , If the cops gunna be a dick and give you a ticket, he''s gunna find something anyways. Dont give them a reason to pull you over and he wont go over your tint/interior/exhaust with a fine comb. |
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| l8rm8 |
quote:
Originally posted by STiPWR
Because you cant prove that she's the only driver.
Just take the damn momo steering wheel that you bought already and install it.
AHHAHAHA I love it. It's a sparco by the way. j/k haven't bought one yet. but your right about giving the cop an excuse. I have found that if you are nice and honest they don't give you a hard time. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by l8rm8
AHHAHAHA I love it. It's a sparco by the way. j/k haven't bought one yet. but your right about giving the cop an excuse. I have found that if you are nice and honest they don't give you a hard time.
Especially if you say "My wife is 4' tall and if I had left the airbag installed it would take her head off." Sure you might be lying, but if you aren't a dick cops will often give you the benefit of the doubt. |
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| stybscelica |
YOu have to remember your vehicle was new at one point and time and had to meet the requirements of the safety standards. When the car meets the standards it can be legally driven and sold in canada. Now for your car to remain LEGAL to be driven it must maintain the safetyu equipment that was installed at the time th car was inspected and approved for opperation in Canada. If you modify your car it no longer is Approved safe. If your in an accident and the car is inspected and found to not meet the Minimum safety standards set out at the cars inception to canada;s roads your gonna get F&*ked by any insurance company. Believe me all insurance companies are looking for outs to deny claims. If you bash your head in the dash or windshield and recieve severe injuries and those injuries could have been prevented if the original safety equipement was in working order. You are going to get squat for a settlement not to mention sued.
So roll the dice if you want to and pray it doesn't come up craps. |
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