| ChromeDragon |
I was exiting a corner from a parking lot last night and the rear of my car slid out as I had little traction on the icy roads. As soon as the rear slid a bit I let off the throttle to bring it back in line and continued up the road. I see an officer going the opposite direction change lanes and turn around at the intersection I had just turned at. This is around 2:30 a.m.
I proceeded to drive towards home, making a detour past a friend's house to see if he had gotten his car going and into his garage. I come around the corner and the cop is right there and throws her lights on. Up to this point she had never had them on, nor had she attempted to "chase" me down as I had been driving under the limit the whole time knowing she was there.
She asks me if I know why she pulled me over and I respond that it's probably because my tires spun on that icy corner. She confirms this, takes my info and writes out a $402 stunting ticket. As she hands me the ticket she rambles something about a wild goose chase (is it illegal to drive through your neighbourhood when the cop following you doesn't have their lights on at all?)
Now in no way, shape or form was I intentionally sliding my car. My Corolla is very light and does not have good traction in the rain, nevermind on ice.
When I got home I called up her supervisor and registered a complaint because this ticket is absolutely ridiculous. If it were valid then every single person on the roads that has at some point spun their tires trying to get traction deserves this ticket.
Now my question is, when I take this to the crown prosecutor is he/she going to bother to listen, or will they just push me right through and tell me to pay it? I have never had a stunting ticket before and I'm not quite sure how they would look at this situation. Anyone else deal with something similar?
Thanks |
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| 4kruzn |
| hey matt. the crown wont have athority to throw it out. So take a few pics of the corner and how icey it is and be sure to save a news paper with all the wether info from that day to take to court with you. you should get this thrown out. you may be able to talk to the officer or her supervisor and get it thrown out before court based on the weather patterns and conditions, but that is unlikely |
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| SilverZ24 |
Unfortunately your post is basically the same as this guys:
http://forums.780tuners.com/showthr...;threadid=52202
Of course you 'claim' you weren't stunting, but really, you could just as easily be making that up.
I agree with you that you shouldn't get a ticket for spinning your tires on a slippery road, but I have seen a ton of guys with rwd cars let out the rear of their cars and I'm sure it isn't an accident most of the time.
I guess it is your word against hers.
quote:
My Corolla does not have good traction in the rain, nevermind on ice.
And with that you are basically saying you drive a vehicle that is unsafe for the road. You should either get better tires or a better vehicle so you aren't endangering others. I would hate to think of you sliding (drifting) into the side of my wifes vehicle with our baby in the back seat. :stickpoke |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
Now my question is, when I take this to the crown prosecutor is he/she going to bother to listen, or will they just push me right through and tell me to pay it? I have never had a stunting ticket before and I'm not quite sure how they would look at this situation. Anyone else deal with something similar?
Thanks
There is a sticky at the top of this forum detailing the procedure on how to appeal you ticket.
And yes, sliding around a corner does constitute stunting. If you're really worried about your ability to defend yourself against this ticket (Which is what, 6 demerits?) then go hire a traffic ticket fighter. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
And with that you are basically saying you drive a vehicle that is unsafe for the road. You should either get better tires or a better vehicle so you aren't endangering others. I would hate to think of you sliding (drifting) into the side of my wifes vehicle with our baby in the back seat. :stickpoke
There is a valid point here.
Put yourself in the CPs shoes. You're 40, drive a BMW, and have the only hobby of raising your kids in a society you see crumbling around you. You hear everyday about people who were "not speeding", "not running stop signs", "not racing".
So you get ready for your next appointment, a gentlement who feels his stunting ticket is undeserved. He walks in and tells you that he didn't mean to slide around the corner but because of the car he drives it's next to impossible not to. However, the police officer, who also drives a RWD car seems to feel that the driving exhibited warrants a stunting ticket.
What you do?
Logically speaking, you trust the opinion of the officer on scene because they are the "expert".
Now, I'm not saying what you did was wrong and worthy of a ticket. But when you think from the CPs point of view, you'll need to have a good reason to get out of it. You may get lucky, you may not. But if you're serious about fighting it you may want to seek a professional. |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
Unfortunately your post is basically the same as this guys:
http://forums.780tuners.com/showthr...;threadid=52202
Of course you 'claim' you weren't stunting, but really, you could just as easily be making that up.
I agree with you that you shouldn't get a ticket for spinning your tires on a slippery road, but I have seen a ton of guys with rwd cars let out the rear of their cars and I'm sure it isn't an accident most of the time.
I guess it is your word against hers.
And with that you are basically saying you drive a vehicle that is unsafe for the road. You should either get better tires or a better vehicle so you aren't endangering others. I would hate to think of you sliding (drifting) into the side of my wifes vehicle with our baby in the back seat. :stickpoke
My car is more in control than 99 per cent of the vehicles on the road. I leave lots of braking room and take corners slowly. In this particular situation I shifted to second, stepped on the gas and the rear tires spun causing the rear end to slide out a bit. While I have slid the rear end of my car in the past, this was in no way intentional.
So have you never spun the tires of your BMW on the ice in this current storm? I fully understand the officer's issue with people sliding their cars, but this was no worse than the hundreds of stop and go starts I have had since it started snowing. My tires spin a bit, I feather the throttle until I get traction. Simple as that. Why this constitutes stunting, I do not know. |
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| ChromeDragon |
I fail to see how my situation is the same as the guy in that other thread. He intentionally slid his car, I did not.
The fact that she did not pull me over for several kilometres tells me that she had doubts about the situation. If she actually thought I was doing this intentionally wouldn't the lights have come on right away and wouldn't she have closed the gap in pursuit? She turned around and followed me at around the same speed I was doing. I really have no idea why she decided to wait to pull me over if she felt this was a ticket-worthy offense? |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
My Corolla does not have good traction in the rain, nevermind on ice.
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
My car is more in control than 99 per cent of the vehicles on the road.
A bit contradicting don't you think? I'm sure 99% of the people don't have problems in the rain. lol And I definitely don't see 99% of the cars on the road sliding around corners thank god.
And my car and driving is not the issue. I never said spinning your tires is 100% avoidable, I just said that when you try arguing your ticket it is your word against hers and for all they know, your case is identical to the other one I posted where the guy was deliberately trying to drift. |
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| STiPWR |
I think she probably seen how you corrected your spin out with ease and kept on driving. So it looked intentional.
If you were any other soccer mom you would have just slid, applied the brakes til they got traction and then accelerated.
You are getting penalized because of your driving skills... But cops wont admit to that.
I get some dirty looks when I do the same thing. Looks like I'm drifting on the ice, but with summer tires, its easier to keep on the gas to gain control rather than hit the brakes.
I would bring this to a traffic ticket lawyer or consultant. You dont want a stunting ticket on your licence, It would be worth the money. If you dont your insurance will go up and cost you more in the long run. |
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| Insomniac |
First mistake: admiting to the infraction
Second mistake: making this thread while keeping your signature |
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| stybscelica |
I'm not sure if i believe your story YET
Do you drive a New Corrloa as your info say's or are you driving an older GTS with RWD???
If it's a new Rolla as stated in your info the only way to get the back to slid before the front tires slide is either Too fast for Road condition's or the good old E- Brake.
So which is it, New or Old Rolla
If your driving a RWD GTS you'll stand a good chance of getting off the ticket.
Cheers |
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| STiPWR |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
I'm not sure if i believe your story YET
Do you drive a New Corrloa as your info say's or are you driving an older GTS with RWD???
If it's a new Rolla as stated in your info the only way to get the back to slid before the front tires slide is either Too fast for Road condition's or the good old E- Brake.
So which is it, New or Old Rolla
If your driving a RWD GTS you'll stand a good chance of getting off the ticket.
Cheers
new rolla to him... its an AE86. |
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| Invalid Zero |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
Unfortunately your post is basically the same as this guys:
http://forums.780tuners.com/showthr...;threadid=52202
Of course you 'claim' you weren't stunting, but really, you could just as easily be making that up.
Yeah it's kinda like that. Except that it was a complete fabrication. :p |
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| dtjohnst |
In my opinion, I don't think you could get off scott-free, though to be honest I'm not sure you should. I also don't think you're being "penalized" for being a good driver, though I can see how Aaron feels you are and he has been.
The problem is, what does the officer see and how can they interpret that? In a VAST majority of the cases, if a recovery is correct and efficient, as yours was, it's a matter of fore-warning. The person knew it would happen and was prepared to correct it. So the officer WILL issue that ticket and leave it to the CP and Magistrate to determine if it's something else.
I almost guarantee you that if you fight it in court, the cop will sit there and give factual information and an opinion that clearly states it's only her opinion. Not as a CYA, but because she will know (if she's a decent cop), that's it's possible you're an awesome driver.
But.........if you're that awesome a driver, shouldn't you have been able to prevent the slide? And in that case, you've done something wrong. Whether that's driving too fast for conditions or not being in full control of your vehicle. Sure, you recovered, but full control would mean there would've been nothing to recover from.
I think your best bet is to ask for a lesser charge. Explain it was unintentional, argue road conditions, claim you hit a patch of ice you weren't expecting, but accept full responsibility that you had done something wrong, even if you don't feel you did. That should be compelling enough to at least get the CP to consider dropping anything, but worse case you get a lesser charge.
The other advice, and the best of the bunch, is to call a lawyer who'll know what the CP's and judges/magistrates are like in Edmonton and give you advice tailored to the legal system here. |
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| ChromeDragon |
If I had been sliding intentionally, then fine, give me the ticket. But I was not doing so.
My car has traction issues in the rain when I'm on boost. Here I was hardly touching the throttle. As soon as the rear started sliding I got off the gas and let the car bring itself in line. Take potshots at me and my car all you want, but the fact is that I have NEVER been in an at-fault collision. I have been rear ended several times, but I have never caused a collision.
The ticket won't affect my insurance, 3 demerits is nothing. I just bought a house here though and I don't have $402 to pay for a BS ticket. |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
In my opinion, I don't think you could get off scott-free, though to be honest I'm not sure you should. I also don't think you're being "penalized" for being a good driver, though I can see how Aaron feels you are and he has been.
The problem is, what does the officer see and how can they interpret that? In a VAST majority of the cases, if a recovery is correct and efficient, as yours was, it's a matter of fore-warning. The person knew it would happen and was prepared to correct it. So the officer WILL issue that ticket and leave it to the CP and Magistrate to determine if it's something else.
I almost guarantee you that if you fight it in court, the cop will sit there and give factual information and an opinion that clearly states it's only her opinion. Not as a CYA, but because she will know (if she's a decent cop), that's it's possible you're an awesome driver.
But.........if you're that awesome a driver, shouldn't you have been able to prevent the slide? And in that case, you've done something wrong. Whether that's driving too fast for conditions or not being in full control of your vehicle. Sure, you recovered, but full control would mean there would've been nothing to recover from.
I think your best bet is to ask for a lesser charge. Explain it was unintentional, argue road conditions, claim you hit a patch of ice you weren't expecting, but accept full responsibility that you had done something wrong, even if you don't feel you did. That should be compelling enough to at least get the CP to consider dropping anything, but worse case you get a lesser charge.
The other advice, and the best of the bunch, is to call a lawyer who'll know what the CP's and judges/magistrates are like in Edmonton and give you advice tailored to the legal system here.
Thank you for that. I fully plan to admit that my car slid, I will not be lying, but hopefully the CP can look at the situation rationally and either reduce or even drop the charge. It's not like I was out sliding full tilt down a crowded street during rush hour. This was 2:30 in the morning, I had just picked up a late supper as I had been busy packing all evening for a move and I was just heading home.
I'm still a little lost as to why she wouldn't throw on the lights right away and pull me over? What's the typical procedure in a situation like that? |
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| Bad Egg |
If I was an officer and wanted to write this kind of ticket, I could park my car on 90% of the corners in town and write them all day long. There have been times in the last couple of weeks when anything short of studded tires would spin, and I think that should be taken into account by most officers. That being said, if you are driving on summer or shitty all season tires and have no weight in your car you are going to get some flack for sliding the rear end out.
They will always ask you if you know why you were pulled over, and how you answer is not always as simple as you might think. If you have a reasonable doubt about the validity of the upcoming ticket and anticipate that you will be challenging it in court you should probably play it dumb(by dumb I mean not volunteer any information that admits guilt). Conversely if you are caught dead to rights and know you deserve a ticket, an honest admission of guilt to the officer may help influence him/her to show some leniency towards you. That is just my personal experience and it may not hold true for everyone.
I looked it up and it is 3 demerits. It may be worth challenging, but that is up to you and what your record & rates look like. That's a bit of a tough one to get, I feel for ya. |
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| Bad Egg |
| After reading your last post, Chromey, my guess would be she followed you to see if you were impaired. That is based on the ass end sliding out and the time of night: it would be certainly possible in a lot of cases. Then when she followed you for a while she may have decided to write you up anyway since she had the time put in. |
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| Invalid Zero |
| I don't know how to help with your ticket Matt, but you can keep it from happening again with some sweet tire chains. TIRE CHAIN DORIFTO!@ |
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| NESTLE |
| THAT PISSES ME OFF, i seen a cop yesterday in calgary kick his ass end out in the middle of the intersection, he gats traction and kicks it out again, their sittin in their laughin and what not. all cops are gay, they love to have power |
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| baker_jeff |
quote:
Originally posted by NESTLE
All cops are gay, they love to have power
All fags driving imports are street racers.
:rolleyes: |
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| Godzilla |
quote:
Originally posted by NESTLE
THAT PISSES ME OFF, i seen a cop yesterday in calgary kick his ass end out in the middle of the intersection, he gats traction and kicks it out again, their sittin in their laughin and what not. all cops are gay, they love to have power
driving east on hiway 16 last week i saw a ghost car with his front end ripped off. a few hundred yards back was a smashed up guard rail. 3 cop cars all sitting there with their lights on. and an RCMP tow truck? never knew they had one. |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
Hm, it's an interesting question Matt.
In my AWD Matrix, I was in an example just this morning that made me think about the same question.
I was trying to make a left turn, suddenly the car plowed straight.
I was heading straight for the curb.
Instinctively, I blipped the throttle a littlebit and that brought the rear end around, I countered and straightened out without a problem.
I mean, from the outside, it looked like I was going to crash, but to save myself, I had to utilize a bit of skill not commonly applied.
I'd say atleast goto court and plead your case, maybe you'll atleast get a lesser charge?. Worth a shot. |
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| ChromeDragon |
It makes me want to get video of cops "stunting" because I always see them sliding their cars around in this weather.
Thanks for everyones' help. I'll be heading down to the CP's office here in a few weeks after talking to a traffic lawyer. |
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| LeadSled |
What a bunch of bullshit.
If this was stunting, then every single RWD vehicle with limited slip rear end in the city is guity. Especially today, I was driving around downtown and could literally not make a corner without the rear stepping out some. There is so much soft snow on the roads it is literally impossible to avoid the rear slippage out at some point. I drive in complete control and have never even been in an accident. Should I get a ticket because I have LSD, wide rear tires and little weight over the rear axle?
Again, this "stunting" ticket is a fucking joke when there's this kind of road conditions. Absolutely take it to court and if the judge is even halfway competent I can't see why it wouldn't get immediately thrown out of court. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
It's not just people with LSD's My rear end is a 2.2 ratio peg leg, with a v8 in a 3800lbs car, I have over 100lbs right over my rear tires, and my car steps out on me sometimes, not much, I normally correct like chrome did.
I've taken a corner at 5km/h and spun a complete 180 cause I wasn't going fast enough for engine braking to pull me back inline.
In the past, I haven't done it with this car, but i've gone to a private parking lot, it was big with nothing in the middle, I had permission to be there and I "stunted" ok, not really, I put my car into slides and learned how my vehicle reacted and how to recover.
Similar concept for Chrome(if you autox, and rally) you can use that as reason why you where able to correct so easily.
If I intensionally kick my rear end out, I do it with syle, you know a full-on JDM drift(yeah I can only do that on snow/ice) not a small little 1 or 2 ft kick. I think this ticket is BS, unless it did a full on JDM drift on ya... All I can say is if a cop tried that on me I would be pulling out the ire chains, then when they look at me funny, I'd be saying, well this is the only way I'm gonna get more traction. I'm running all seasons but my current all season provide more traction that the "winters" I had last year... and my all seasons have the little snow flake on them so they can't give me shit about improper tires. |
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| fugumerkur |
Very sad to hear, and that 402.00 dollar penalty is awfully high, the roads are absolute crap and if this makes you feel any better, I watched a woman in a dodge neon completely spin off the on ramp to the anthony henday in front of me today, Its a FWD car obviously and she was'n't even on it.
Fight this one because anyone with a RWD car is going to end up getting screwed the same way, Heck just leaving intersections that have high traffic are tickets waiting to happen in this case, you can't barely let out the clutch without my car stepping to the side and I have new winter tires.
Hopefully you get this ticket straightened out or at least say you will bring them a reciept for new winter tires if they throw it out! Worth a shot but wouldn't they rather have you in a safe car than have more money in their pockets. |
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| sparkycivic |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
First mistake: admiting to the infraction
Second mistake: making this thread while keeping your signature
go fuck your hat for posting that |
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| Soulfly |
What about Your vehicle not being safe for the roads...
"If your tires are not safe for the road, Why are you driving?"
^^ you Might get the question... In which case.. what would you reply? :dunno: |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by Soulfly
What about Your vehicle not being safe for the roads...
"If your tires are not safe for the road, Why are you driving?"
^^ you Might get the question... In which case.. what would you reply? :dunno:
If allseasons, they have the little snow flake on them and thus somebody high up deemed them acceptable to use in snow.. other wise they wouldn't be "all seasons" So unless they aer worn pass the wear lines they shoudn't be "not safe for the roads" |
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| ChromeDragon |
My tires have a ton of tread, but they can only do so much when it is snow sitting on top of solid ice. I wasn't out there busting out full opposite lock. At most I countered 1/4 turn on the steering wheel to correct and was off the throttle as soon as the car began to slide. It was back in line within two seconds and I never came close to leaving my lane.
At the same corner today I saw some jackass in a Grand Prix come full tilt, e-brake, slide around the corner taking up both lanes and clip the curb on the far side of the lane he wasn't supposed to be turning into. This asshole had a shit-eating grin on his face the whole time. Where was the cop for that one? This was at about 8:30 this evening and there were other cars all over the place.
I'm just in a really shitty mood lately and this made it just that much worse. |
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| sparkycivic |
like i said in some other thread... maybe the city or cops or whatever should be rethinking what is a acceptable tire for these conditions. Just look at how many people have been careening through red lights for no other reason than there's no safe speed for the shit tires that they got on their cars. they leave absolutely no margin for error if a yellow hits just as you're getting to the intersection or or perhaps you looked down at the fuel gauge at an inopportune time. having proper tires increases the margin and i've never felt safer.
now for your ticket... man, i really think the magistrate should be able to tell you your odds of getting away with "accidental" plea, and they can show you the comments form the officer on the back of the original copy just to get the insight. after that i think you can still go to points and take them a copy with the comments. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
I'm still a little lost as to why she wouldn't throw on the lights right away and pull me over? What's the typical procedure in a situation like that?
There is no official procedure. She can pull you over right then and there or wait 3 hours and do it. It's her call. Unfortunately, you're asking me to guess as to what was going on in her mind, and I can't say for certain.
I would have thought that IF she thought you were stunting, she would've wanted to pull you over ASAP and get you off the roads before you killed someone. Same with if she thought you were drunk. Pulling you over and getting a wiff of your breath is a much better way to figure that out than tailing you.
I think that in all likelihood, she wanted to see how you'd handle a few more turns. Had you spun out a few more times, she might've figure "Bah, must be tires and the weather." But since you didn't, she assumed you did the one purpose. To me that makes sense.
As for cops stunting..........yeah well. Wouldn't you now and then if you had a bitchin' car and no one to stop you? Is it fair? No. But then.......you probably don't get spit on daily at your job either, or called names and disrespected by the majority of people you talk to...so it's a small reward.
People seem to forget that. Everyone wants to hold cops to some higher standard. They're human beings, they make mistakes. Some cops are real easy going and would cheer you on for fishtailing and having fun, others will try and nail you for everything to suspend your licence. That difference occurs in EVERY job, and that can often end up costing you money.
Look at it this way. One mechanic says changing your plugs is all you need to fix your problem. Another says you need a new fuel pump, new plug wires and a new ECU as well. If you trust #2 and go to him, some might say you're getting ripped off. But maybe #1's advice won't solve all your problems. Same situation. Different people with different opinions, one will cost you more money.
Too many people in this thread are looking at cops as 1 unit. Like all police are the same, treat people the same, and they're all hypocrites because one gave a stunting ticket for something the other did. Maybe the other wouldn't issue the ticket, maybe the one that issued the ticket never does that...why treat them as if they're 1 person just because they have the same job?
quote:
Originally posted by NESTLE
THAT PISSES ME OFF, i seen a cop yesterday in calgary kick his ass end out in the middle of the intersection, he gats traction and kicks it out again, their sittin in their laughin and what not. all cops are gay, they love to have power
Tell me what you do for a living and you'll tell you just as many stories about assholes in your job. I guess that means everyone in your profession must be gay too.
Be civil and contribute something meaningful or get out. |
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| SilverFire |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
[B]Everyone wants to hold cops to some higher standard. They're human beings, they make mistakes. Some cops are real easy going and would cheer you on for fishtailing and having fun, others will try and nail you for everything to suspend your licence.
Kudos to you. I've long believed that. However, I also believe it's up to the rest of us to prevent them from taking it too far. If you see a cop fishtailing and stunting, get the unit number and call it in. Chances are nothing will happen, but if a bunch of people are calling in different incidents, they will at least get a verbal warning that lets them know they can't get away with it.
Just like us, a cop having fun every once in a while in a safe situation isn't a problem, but having one drifting around every corner they can in rush hour traffic is. Of course, if that IS the situation, be sure to let them know at the other end and the chances of something hapening are MUCH better. |
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| dtjohnst |
Complaints are taken very seriously. Afterall, cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard. I just think people take it too far and expect perfection.
Not too long ago there was one cop who was making his 36th arrest of the night, which is absolutely insane, it was just stupid busy, the guy spit on him, and he beat the living tar out of his suspect, who was cuffed and being shoved in a cell at jail, all recorded by cameras. Naturally, it all went to court.
The result was that the cop was let off. The judge said something to the effect of we all have limits on how far we can be pushed. A normal person would've lost it much earlier in the night, and the actions of the officer, while unfortunate, were a natural reaction. Deal with scumbags treating you like shit for hours on end, and eventually you're going to snap.
There was a huge uproar in the community. How can this menace to society be allowed to carry a badge? blah blah blah. And it was the first time he'd even been charged with anything like this. People forget that a badge doesn't make you inhuman. Yes, you have more authority and responsibility, but you can, and will, make mistakes. Afterall, who here is perfect all the time in their job? |
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| Tech2 |
off topic...
I actually learned a cool move from a cop back when I was about 17. He was in a tight residential street and wanted to turn around without doing a 10 point turn, so he just pulled a sweet donut. Of course my ride at the time was fwd, so I had to do it backwards, but it worked great and impressed the ladies.
Back on topic, i guess all we are doing (as mentioned above) is speculating what the police officer was thinking. But also like mentioned above, wouldn't a stunting driver need to be stopped right away? Could this be a way to argue the ticket? |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by Tech2
off topic...
I actually learned a cool move from a cop back when I was about 17. He was in a tight residential street and wanted to turn around without doing a 10 point turn, so he just pulled a sweet donut. Of course my ride at the time was fwd, so I had to do it backwards, but it worked great and impressed the ladies.
Back on topic, i guess all we are doing (as mentioned above) is speculating what the police officer was thinking. But also like mentioned above, wouldn't a stunting driver need to be stopped right away? Could this be a way to argue the ticket?
If you're argument is because they're more dangerous, shouldn't a murderer be arrested right away too? Or a drug dealer?
If you have all the evidence you need, by all means. Otherwise you might need to tail them to determine whether it's stunting or just bad weather or something else. |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Complaints are taken very seriously. Afterall, cops SHOULD be held to a higher standard. I just think people take it too far and expect perfection.
I completely agree that they are just people that make mistakes, but I don't understand how this officer expects absolute perfection from me on the roads. If I had been 20 years older in a $50,000 truck and the same thing had happened, would she have given me the ticket?
The thing I really wonder though is if I had just let the car spin out and not corrected the slide, would she have given me a ticket? Or am I being penalized because my ability to correct a slide safely makes it look like I was doing it on purpose? |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
I completely agree that they are just people that make mistakes, but I don't understand how this officer expects absolute perfection from me on the roads. If I had been 20 years older in a $50,000 truck and the same thing had happened, would she have given me the ticket?
The thing I really wonder though is if I had just let the car spin out and not corrected the slide, would she have given me a ticket? Or am I being penalized because my ability to correct a slide safely makes it look like I was doing it on purpose?
Well, the problem isn't that they think you should be "perfect", but that from what they saw, it looked like you did it on purpose. I realize you say you didn't, but police don't really go around believing everyone who says they were innocent. |
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| Insomniac |
Did you indicate to her that it was an accident? Like i said earlier, the first mistake you made was admitting to why she pulled you over. She can hold that against you.
I would take it to court for sure, and hopefully you will have an understanding commissioner. If she goes on the stand, you may want to ask her if she has has ever spun her tires in weather like this, and why. |
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| Tech2 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
The thing I really wonder though is if I had just let the car spin out and not corrected the slide, would she have given me a ticket? Or am I being penalized because my ability to correct a slide safely makes it look like I was doing it on purpose?
Had he slid out at every corner, would this have prevented the ticket? (once again we're speculating as to what was in the officer's head at the time...) |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
*off topicish*
As far as Police talking complaints seriously... yeah they doo.
I reported a tactical squad car that decided he didn't want to wait inthe far left lane on 97st to turn left on 127st(North turning west) so he changed lanes very suddenly, without a signal, too bad he was stopped and there was an ETS bus there. Luckiy the ETS was able to slam the brakes toss a few passangers, but didn't hit the cruiser. I had to slam on my brakes too.
So I got around hte bus caught up to the cruiser, tailed him up 97st, the way he was driving, definatly wasn't responding to a call, he made his left at 137ave instead.
So I went to the Londonderry Police station for make a "complaint" they asked what I wanted done, I just said, remind him about signals and mirrors(thats not verbatium, but it was the point) Every friggin night for the next 2 weeks there was a cruiser 2 blocks away from my house, and when I passed to go to work, it would pull out and follow me, after between 5-15 blocks it would turn off, and I dunno if it was the same cruiser or a different one, but 1 block later I'd have another cruiser on my butt. If it was 1 time I'd say fluke, but every night I worked for 2 weeks... nah... so i sold my car, bought a truck, and waited as long as I could before I changed my registration.
They found me in my truck, impounded it and hit me with everything they could... cost me over $1200-$1500 to get my truck back.
And how back to your regularily scedueled programming.
PS I'm not whining, I don't hate all cops due to it.. but sheesh |
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| Tech2 |
| Another well planned sting operation that improves the edmonton police department's public image. Too bad... |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
People seem to forget that. Everyone wants to hold cops to some higher standard. They're human beings, they make mistakes.
Absolutely, and they should be. This is profession of which perfection is expected. Right up there with surgeons, judges, pilots, air traffic controllers, etc. Yes, everyone is human, and people in each of those professions make mistakes. But just because people make mistakes sometimes doesn't mean they shouldn't be accountable when they happen nor does it mean that those expecting perfection were being unreasonable.
Having a hard night as a cop doesn't excuse you from beating your uncooperative 37th arrest of the night, any more than having a hard day excuses that air traffic controller from slamming two planes into each other or that your heart surgeon was having a bad day, doing his 37th operation and kills his patient.
Being a proper cop takes a higher standard of person, I don't doubt that one bit. But if you can't hack it, if you aren't the 'higher' standard person, don't take the job. (Or, I would argue, it should not be given to you in the first place).
This is a utopian vision of course. In reality, budget constraints and personnel availability make it such that not every cop hired is satisfactory for the job (keep in mind that 'satisfactory' means 'above and beyond' most human beings). But I don't think it's unreasonable to complain about the situation, and do think it's unreasonable to put up the 'they are just human' flag. No, they should be better than that. If they aren't (and I would say this is so, in some cases), this is a failure of the system as a whole. If we need to pay cops more to get higher quality ones, then perhaps this is what needs to happen.
I'm not at all trying to come down on 'cops as a profession' at all, I have much respect for those who do the job properly, and it's more than I could do to be sure. What I am saying is that I think there are a lot of cops who simply aren't cut out for it, but whatever the reason is, are still doing that job. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
Absolutely, and they should be. This is profession of which perfection is expected. Right up there with surgeons, judges, pilots, air traffic controllers, etc. Yes, everyone is human, and people in each of those professions make mistakes. But just because people make mistakes sometimes doesn't mean they shouldn't be accountable when they happen nor does it mean that those expecting perfection were being unreasonable.
Having a hard night as a cop doesn't excuse you from beating your uncooperative 37th arrest of the night, any more than having a hard day excuses that air traffic controller from slamming two planes into each other or that your heart surgeon was having a bad day, doing his 37th operation and kills his patient.
Being a proper cop takes a higher standard of person, I don't doubt that one bit. But if you can't hack it, if you aren't the 'higher' standard person, don't take the job. (Or, I would argue, it should not be given to you in the first place).
This is a utopian vision of course. In reality, budget constraints and personnel availability make it such that not every cop hired is satisfactory for the job (keep in mind that 'satisfactory' means 'above and beyond' most human beings). But I don't think it's unreasonable to complain about the situation, and do think it's unreasonable to put up the 'they are just human' flag. No, they should be better than that. If they aren't (and I would say this is so, in some cases), this is a failure of the system as a whole. If we need to pay cops more to get higher quality ones, then perhaps this is what needs to happen.
I'm not at all trying to come down on 'cops as a profession' at all, I have much respect for those who do the job properly, and it's more than I could do to be sure. What I am saying is that I think there are a lot of cops who simply aren't cut out for it, but whatever the reason is, are still doing that job.
If you're expecting perfection from human beings, you're being unreasonable.
Air traffic controllers make mistakes every day. The reasons planes aren't colliding is because there are safety buffers built in. In some cases planes can be hundreds of miles apart and it's considered an incident and gets reviewed.
Doctors make mistakes every day too. And they're usually minor as well.
A police officer spinning out is hardly a big mistake. And if buddy hadn't of spit on the cop, he wouldn't of gotten his ass kicked. I would like to see a law that says if you don't show an officer respect, you get your ass kicked legally even if you're the first arrest. But I guess we'll agree to disagree. |
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| stybscelica |
You have forgotten the most critical thing here, Spitting constatutes assault and if spit in the officers eye's bad things will happen. Many of the Scum we deal with carry HIV and AIDS which is transferable through spit if gotten in any moist area's ie eye's, mouth, nose. If someone ever spits on me at work the last thing they would remember is the shit eating grin that they had on their face.
I'm not paid nearly enough to put up with the BS of HIV Vaccines and Antibiotic cocktails that make the Norwalk Virus look like a runny nose.
Not to Mention the BS i have to tell my wife and potentially infect her or my kids.
If you spit on an officer prepare to get belted.
Cheers |
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| mr_sars |
quote:
Originally posted by stybscelica
You have forgotten the most critical thing here, Spitting constatutes assault and if spit in the officers eye's bad things will happen. Many of the Scum we deal with carry HIV and AIDS which is transferable through spit if gotten in any moist area's ie eye's, mouth, nose. If someone ever spits on me at work the last thing they would remember is the shit eating grin that they had on their face.
I'm not paid nearly enough to put up with the BS of HIV Vaccines and Antibiotic cocktails that make the Norwalk Virus look like a runny nose.
Not to Mention the BS i have to tell my wife and potentially infect her or my kids.
If you spit on an officer prepare to get belted.
Cheers
The chance of someone transmitting HIV/AIDS with their saliva is so rare that it's usually brushed off as being impossible. I don't even think that there has ever been a recorded case of it happening. Besides, the virus wouldn't survive very long if it was in the spit anyways. If someone spat at me and I contracted HIV then I'm sure as hell going to head out and buy a couple lottery tickets.
Spitting is just disrespectful. End of story. |
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| snugs |
I'll read the rest of the thread later, but go in and plead "Misadventure". Its sort of a no-fault plea, yes your car spun the wheels but there's nothing you could do about it and it wasn't your intention to "stunt".....
This is a bullshit ticket and you can make her look very very foolish in court, but you'll have to bring in photo's and weather reports and all that jazz. (PS - Digital photos printed out on paper don't count, it has to be regular looking photographs.) |
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| snugs |
okay, read it all... definitely appears to be a bullshit ticket, feel free to rip her a new one.
And for the record I believe the #1 reason you got the ticket was because you admitted to knowing why you were pulled over. So take a note, this is what you get for being aware of what your car is doing, paying attention to the traffic around you and then having the audacity to be honest when asked about it.
Present a solid case, plead misadventure and it should be dismissed. |
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| DarrylBleau |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
If you're expecting perfection from human beings, you're being unreasonable.
Air traffic controllers make mistakes every day. The reasons planes aren't colliding is because there are safety buffers built in. In some cases planes can be hundreds of miles apart and it's considered an incident and gets reviewed.
Doctors make mistakes every day too. And they're usually minor as well.
A police officer spinning out is hardly a big mistake. And if buddy hadn't of spit on the cop, he wouldn't of gotten his ass kicked. I would like to see a law that says if you don't show an officer respect, you get your ass kicked legally even if you're the first arrest. But I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I'm not condoning the actions of some guy spitting on a cop. Obviously that's bad. I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at here. I was taking issue with the 'cops are just human, so they make mistakes, give them a break' mentality. Cops, by virtue of their profession, should be superhuman. Above the crowd. Better than most, in terms of patience, intelligence, strength, and stamina. Average Joe (Prone to the failures of humanity as any average person is) should not be an officer.
Expecting perfection is not unreasonable. If you got laser eye surgery and had one eye blinded for life, I'm sure you wouldn't say, 'well, humans make mistakes, so tough for me...'. Now replace 'eye surgeon' with 'cop' and 'surgery' with 'arrest beating'. Same expectations apply. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by DarrylBleau
I'm not condoning the actions of some guy spitting on a cop. Obviously that's bad. I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at here. I was taking issue with the 'cops are just human, so they make mistakes, give them a break' mentality. Cops, by virtue of their profession, should be superhuman. Above the crowd. Better than most, in terms of patience, intelligence, strength, and stamina. Average Joe (Prone to the failures of humanity as any average person is) should not be an officer.
Expecting perfection is not unreasonable. If you got laser eye surgery and had one eye blinded for life, I'm sure you wouldn't say, 'well, humans make mistakes, so tough for me...'. Now replace 'eye surgeon' with 'cop' and 'surgery' with 'arrest beating'. Same expectations apply.
So you don't think doing nothing while 36 guys spit on you and snapping when 37 does is "superhuman" patience?
I don't care what job someone has, to expect perfection, or to expect them to be superhuman, is unreasonable. Doctors DO make mistakes, even during laser eye surgery. And the response is usually "Woops, we can fix that right up for you." Doctors misdiagnose people every day.
There is no job out there where people act perfectly. None. Not a one. And in no job is anyone expected to by most people, you being one of the exceptions.
What about welders? A bad weld could cause a weakness in the structure and an entire building could come down if it's a big enough mistake. A carpenter could have the same effect on a house. A mechanic could make your car malfunction in traffic in a way that kills groups of people. In fact, I challenge you to name a single job (except for something like writer), where lives aren't at stake. What's the difference?
If you want to think cops should be perfect, you go right ahead. But you'll only be disappointed and most judges, including the Supreme Court, will disagree with you.
Despite what you may think, being a LEO is just another job, like any other. Sometimes that job can place unreasonable stress on a human, just like any job. Sometimes the humans doing that job don't deserve to be there, like any other. sometimes the humans doing it prove that there are still heroes out there, like any other.
Maybe the reason people are so upset with some of things police officers do has nothing to do with the performance of those officers. Maybe the problem is their expectations. |
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| Insomniac |
LOL, i was talking to a paramedic the other day about a drunk guy they had in the ambulance who spat in the eye of a cop in the bus. Supposedly the medics tossed him out of the bus and into the back of a cruiser. Then the cop stomped the guys head into the door sill a few times, and slammed the door into his noggin.
Cops are human. |
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| JustinL |
If the cop who gave the beating to his 37th arrest of the night knew it was a rough night and he was close to his breaking point, he should have removed himself from the situation.
I can't even really believe dtjohn is trying to make an argument out of this. For example you've been pulled over by a cop on his 50th arrest of the night and you curse the fact that you've been pulled over. For this you get pulled out the window of the car and beaten on the street. The guy was ready to snap and looking for a scapegoat to give a beating to and you just happened to be the one when he lost it. Are you going to say... "well he was having a rough day and what I did deserved a beating"? Of course not, cursing a cop, nor is spitting on a cop worthy of a beating.
Also, if anyone in a profession makes a mistake like you suggest, there are consequences unlike the cop you referred to who "was just human". Cop gives a beating to someone because he's had a rough day at work, he gets charged and convicted. If a firefighter has a rough day at work and goes to beat someone up on whyte ave that night he gets charged and convicted too. No double standards for police. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
If the cop who gave the beating to his 37th arrest of the night knew it was a rough night and he was close to his breaking point, he should have removed himself from the situation.
I can't even really believe dtjohn is trying to make an argument out of this. For example you've been pulled over by a cop on his 50th arrest of the night and you curse the fact that you've been pulled over. For this you get pulled out the window of the car and beaten on the street. The guy was ready to snap and looking for a scapegoat to give a beating to and you just happened to be the one when he lost it. Are you going to say... "well he was having a rough day and what I did deserved a beating"? Of course not, cursing a cop, nor is spitting on a cop worthy of a beating.
Also, if anyone in a profession makes a mistake like you suggest, there are consequences unlike the cop you referred to who "was just human". Cop gives a beating to someone because he's had a rough day at work, he gets charged and convicted. If a firefighter has a rough day at work and goes to beat someone up on whyte ave that night he gets charged and convicted too. No double standards for police.
Holy fuck buddy. Who said anything about swearing resulting in a beating of a lifetime? There are definately limits. But, on his 50th stop of the night, cursing might get you a much larger fine than otherwise if the cop is having a rough night. He might do a walkaround and ding you for everything he finds. If in retaliation you spit on his boots, he might lash out and cock you in the face. Next time, don't spit.
I guarantee you that disciplinary action results. In any situation where an officer loses his cool. What we're saying is that the cop shouldn't go to jail or be forced to pay a large sum to the "victim" he kicked the shit out of for being immensely disrespectful.
You say you can't believe I'm saying this? How about someone saying there are jobs out there that require people to not be human, to be better than human? You're the one making the inane suggestion here.
As for removing himself from the situation.....you go to work next week, and reach your "limit" and back away. Then explain it to your boss.
Now remember the officers boss is the public. There was a cop in Texas who watched a bank robbery and did nothing. He was frustrated and annoyed at the system, and did exactly what you did, backed away. He went to jail for not doing his job. In my opinion, "backing away" is not a great plan when your job is public safety.
I guess I'll tell my ATC buddies next time they're stressed and ready to snap at some poor pilot to back away and let God sort it out or something. |
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| JustinL |
Hehehe You seem overly emotionally involved in this discussion. Normally your arguments are quite coherent. I will address your points though.
If I thought that I was going to assault someone or break a law because I couldn't control myself, my boss would certainly understand If I got someone else to step in for me while I cooled off, as would almost any reasonable employer.
I'm trying to say that everyone has bad days at work in all walks of life where they feel like taking it out on someone. A doctor can get insulted and spit on and should still provide the same level of care to his patients... if he doesn't he should be sued and be disciplined appropriately. I don't want to see a double standard for cops who have a bad day and take it out on a suspect with no legal recourse. It sets an incredibly bad precedent.
I'm not suggesting that cops need to be super human either, I am saying that not beating a cuffed suspect is a minimum standard to being a decent human.
The cop who did nothing to stop a bank robery... Can you further explain the example you're trying to draw. I'm not sure how that fits into the discussion. It is a cops job to stop crooks who are committing crimes, and to not beat them on their way through the justice system. I'm not opposed to reasonable use of force to accomplish the job.
Yes next time your ATC buddies have a pilot in cuffs and feel the urge to beat him they should call you in to relieve them. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
Hehehe You seem overly emotionally involved in this discussion. Normally your arguments are quite coherent. I will address your points though.
Emotionally involved? In an internet debate? Try again.
quote:
If I thought that I was going to assault someone or break a law because I couldn't control myself, my boss would certainly understand If I got someone else to step in for me while I cooled off, as would almost any reasonable employer.
And if you worked alone and couldn't call someone in? Would he still "understand" that you failed to do your job because you were under a lot of stress and decided to walk away? What if your job involved the safety of several people?
quote:
I'm trying to say that everyone has bad days at work in all walks of life where they feel like taking it out on someone. A doctor can get insulted and spit on and should still provide the same level of care to his patients... if he doesn't he should be sued and be disciplined appropriately. I don't want to see a double standard for cops who have a bad day and take it out on a suspect with no legal recourse. It sets an incredibly bad precedent.
If you insulted and spit on your doctor, I can almost guarantee you that he'd kick you out of the office. If you were suffering from some major trauma or wound, he'd probably have you anesthetized, but he certainly wouldn't put up with it because "it's his job". But let's make your argument fair so it's not comparing apples and oranges.
The doctor works in the slums, is constantly bereated and insulted all day, and after 11 hours of his 12 hour shift, he gets spit on and innappropriate comments are made about his wife for the 20th time. Now do you think the doctor would sit there and take it? Do you think he should have to? Would you take it in your job?
quote:
I'm not suggesting that cops need to be super human either, I am saying that not beating a cuffed suspect is a minimum standard to being a decent human.
You may not, but you'll notice others have said that in this thread. And while I agree somewhat with your statement, it's not usually a beating. It's usually one good smack. I decked a guy once who was in cuffs. He had it coming. Maybe next time he won't go on for 2 hours explaining in detail what it feels like to have sex with an 8 year old and then tell me he knows I'd do it too if I had the chance. Cops are paid to protect the innocent. An officers job isn't to put up with absolute bullshit, just like yours isn't. To think any differently shows complete ignorance of what police work is all about.
We aren't talking about officers who do it on a daily basis either. Those guys have a long paper trail and end up getting fired. We're talking about cops who now and then, as in very infrequently, maybe a half dozen times in their entire career, snap on someone who's being extremely disrespectful. In 7 years I did it once, and I met lots of assholes.
It's about expectations. People "expect" too much from police officers. As a K9 Security officer I get the same treatment. A bum refuses to leave, I hold a debate for a few minutes, finally I get fed up and grab him by the arm and chuck him in the street. Or he's "asleep" and no matter how hard I yell doesn't listen, so I put by boot on his shoulder and shove him as hard as I can, which is pretty hard, and if he still refuses, he ends up getting dragged out. Usually during the dragging he wakes up wanting his shoes, bag, blanket, make a phone call, me to stop yelling at him to wake up and get out, etc, which I ignore. Once he's out I go back in and grab his shit and throw it at him. He brought it on himself through non-compliance. These people don't understand a normal discussion. They'll talk and argue for hours if you're inside where it's warm.
And what do I get? Dirty looks from passerby's, complaints phones in about how rough I am, etc. By the same people who then call my office and have me sent out because the bum sleeping in their building has them too scared to leave.
The worst part is when the guys lose control. Usually not even bums, just some drunk being an ass, refuses to leave when the staff at the 7-11 call, I show up and he's all talk, retreats across the street and keeps yelling. I head down the street to deal with something else and one of our 120 lb guards shows up to keep an eye on things and I get back just in time to see the drunk taking swings at our guard. Then people get mad at me when he's lying on the ground with my knee grinding his neck or jaw into the pavement while I'm putting the cuffs on him.
That's the message that started this whole debate and jacked this thread. THat people expect cops to be perfect, and to always respond "appropriately". But that's being gauged and decided by an outside observer. Why do all officers need to share the same opinion? Why can't one do what another issues a ticket for when it's borderline? Because people view them as one entity. It's the "us vs them" mentality applied to the general public and peace officers. People need to step back and realize they weren't involved. The complaints only bear weight if it's coming from someone who was actually affected, and if it's against the officer in question.
quote:
The cop who did nothing to stop a bank robery... Can you further explain the example you're trying to draw. I'm not sure how that fits into the discussion. It is a cops job to stop crooks who are committing crimes, and to not beat them on their way through the justice system. I'm not opposed to reasonable use of force to accomplish the job.
You said officer should back away if they think they can't handle the situation without losing their cool. In this case, that's what the officer thought, so he did nothing. And he was punished for it. Like I said earlier, your boss expects you to do your job. It's often easier to fix a minor error than to explain to the client how it didn't get completed at all. And that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about officer who accept bribes from the mafia, or who shoot people and then cover it up, we're talking about cops being disrespected and having enough of it.
quote:
Yes next time your ATC buddies have a pilot in cuffs and feel the urge to beat him they should call you in to relieve them.
How about next time they're stressed and a pilot is being an ass and they want to snap at him on the air? I'll tell them to put the headset down and "remove themselves from the situation" since they can't act in a professional manner and keep their emotions under control instead of telling the pilot to quit being an annoying peice of shit and do what he's told. Hopefully the TCAS/ACAS can give enough advanced warning he doesn't crash into something. Afterall, that was the advice, right? If you can't keep your cool, walk away.
And I can't relieve them, I no longer hold a licence, but good thinking. You'd be surprised how often a controller sits there with no one to relieve them, no matter how absolutely stupid busy it gets, how stressed he gets, or what kind of incident occurs. That's why God invented air-stops. With 5 calls over the hotline no more planes come unless you say so. You should check out the Hartsfield, Atlanta incident. The guy had a near miss, no one could relieve him and so his stress level mounted and he started to lose confidence, he had a 2nd near miss and still no one could relieve him and it got worse and he started to lose the picture. By the time he got relieved, there had been 6 near misses in the span of about 15 mins. But then, since he was losing his cool and couldn't handle the job, I suppose he should've just walked away, right? |
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| JustinL |
You have posted a lot of nice examples of people who need to use force to accomplish their jobs, and I have NO problem with that.
I think our disagreement is this: I think there should be no double standard in the eyes of the law for cops who beat a suspect who is in cuffs being put into a cell.
Our second disagreement seems to stem from the fact that I don't think that beating was a mistake (as in 'oops'). It was a bad decision that was intended to cause harm. All the examples given in this thread all involve mistakes and not decisions to inflict injury. Everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody decides to harm others. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
You have posted a lot of nice examples of people who need to use force to accomplish their jobs, and I have NO problem with that.
I think our disagreement is this: I think there should be no double standard in the eyes of the law for cops who beat a suspect who is in cuffs being put into a cell.
Our second disagreement seems to stem from the fact that I don't think that beating was a mistake (as in 'oops'). It was a bad decision that was intended to cause harm. All the examples given in this thread all involve mistakes and not decisions to inflict injury. Everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody decides to harm others.
We live in a world of decision makers. Some cops get leniency, some don't, depends on the judge. Once the cop proves to be a habitual offender, he's removed from the job. I don't see a double standard there. If you lost your job, your wife left with kids, your dog was hit by a truck and the bank repoed your house all in the same week and someone is rude to you somewhere and you snap and beat the crap out of them, you're generally given leniency too. Happened to a guy I knew.
The pedophile I decked, I knew damn well I was going to hurt him. The bums I drag out into the street I know damn well are going to get hurt when they're chucked and land face first.
In fact, I don't see any of my examples being "mistakes" or "accidents". |
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| 180sxforthewin |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
You have posted a lot of nice examples of people who need to use force to accomplish their jobs, and I have NO problem with that.
I think our disagreement is this: I think there should be no double standard in the eyes of the law for cops who beat a suspect who is in cuffs being put into a cell.
Our second disagreement seems to stem from the fact that I don't think that beating was a mistake (as in 'oops'). It was a bad decision that was intended to cause harm. All the examples given in this thread all involve mistakes and not decisions to inflict injury. Everybody makes mistakes, but not everybody decides to harm others.
What if the offender hurt someone you loved or cared about, I imagine you wouldnt mind a double standard. Dont believe what the movies, tv shows, and media would have you believe. Yes there are cops out there who beats suspects, sell drugs, and probably kill innocent poeple. Not all are crooked cops.
We saw an example of this in the news a little while ago, the cop shot a prisoner in a cell and he was put into jail.
"A doctor can get insulted and spit on and should still provide the same level of care to his patients... if he doesn't he should be sued and be disciplined appropriately" wtf
if I was taking care of your health I would tell you to get out of my place of buisness, why would you spit on a doctor.
You cannot compare the emotional levels of being a police officer and being a doctor. Or any job for that matter, revenge is a part of human nature, if I was a cop and you spat on me, sure I would put the cuffs on a little tighter and hit your head on the door while putting you into my car. |
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| JustinL |
My objection is only to the leniancy shown towards the officer in the court of law. I can agree that people flip out all the time and do horrible things when they are pushed to the brink. I don't claim to be any better myself, but I would expect to face the consequences of my decisions.
I place a high value on accountability, especially for people employed in public services.
quote:
You cannot compare the emotional levels of being a police officer and being a doctor. Or any job for that matter, revenge is a part of human nature, if I was a cop and you spat on me, sure I would put the cuffs on a little tighter and hit your head on the door while putting you into my car.
Agreed, as you said there are very few other public service jobs that are as stressful... the accountability of a doctor was as close as I could come. And putting the cuffs on a little tight and bump on the head is a far cry from a beating that is caught on tape. |
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| 180sxforthewin |
| Yes i guess your right, but I dont think that these beatings are that common, but who knows I can only hear about what the news tells me right. Unless im on the hurt end of the baton. |
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| jamaican |
| i heard towards the end of the month they start to give out more tickets, because payday is coming up |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
My objection is only to the leniancy shown towards the officer in the court of law. I can agree that people flip out all the time and do horrible things when they are pushed to the brink. I don't claim to be any better myself, but I would expect to face the consequences of my decisions.
I place a high value on accountability, especially for people employed in public services.
Agreed, as you said there are very few other public service jobs that are as stressful... the accountability of a doctor was as close as I could come. And putting the cuffs on a little tight and bump on the head is a far cry from a beating that is caught on tape.
So........an officer having an extraordinarily shitty night shouldn't be shown leniancy in court, like the court does with people who are having a shitty night? So.......you're saying you do want a double standard, one where civilians are cut slack depending on circumstances and cops aren't.
And where did you get beatings caught on tape from? That's as random as Jamaican's comment about increased tickets. |
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| JustinL |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Not too long ago there was one cop who was making his 36th arrest of the night, which is absolutely insane, it was just stupid busy, the guy spit on him, and he beat the living tar out of his suspect, who was cuffed and being shoved in a cell at jail, all recorded by cameras. Naturally, it all went to court.
The result was that the cop was let off. The judge said something to the effect of we all have limits on how far we can be pushed.
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| luder |
Matt, we all get stupid tickets. Fact of life.
If you are really concerned about this ticket (I have no idea what your driving abstract looks like) take it to court. Unless you call in points or a lawyer, you will be paying cash.
If I were in your shoes, I'd just ask for a reduction straight up. The effort involved in getting the ticket quashed may not be worth it.
Tell the prosecutor it was icy, and you couldn't help it. Take the reduction and move on.
It shouldn't affect your insurance since you are over 25.
Good Luck. |
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| dtjohnst |
| But that wasn't some random beating. I thought you were talking about something like a Rodney King. If I spit on you and you beat me up, that's aggrevated assault, I get leniency for that. If the situation is stressful enough, I get let off. A cop in the same situation wouldn't be treated as leniently. There's the double standard you want. But if you increase the stress more and more, he get's slack. |
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