| jberger |
| what does everyone think about house prices, how much will they rise this year |
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| SilverZ24 |
| My guess is 15% by July/August and then it will drop a bit for the winter. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by jberger
what does everyone think about house prices
I think its GGGGrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!! :D |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
My guess is 15% by July/August and then it will drop a bit for the winter.
House prices hardly drop. The houses just take longer/harder to sell.
They only drop when the entire fundamentals change (ie interest rates, economy, supply). Not likely to happen soon.
I love Edmonton. We're exactly like Ft. Mac now. In the Mac everyone used to talk real estate. Hey! We're up 10% woot! Same mentality here in the rest of Alberty now. (But now we ransack Superstores like the F.Macians do..).
(House prices haven't moved much in the Fort for the past few years, people don't talk about Real estate much now). And that $55/barrel of oil scare really shut them up too... |
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| am10 |
in 2006, banks predicted about 13% and it was a 48% jump...
in 2007, banks predict 15% but it will be a ____% jump...
Edmonton is the place to be.... :D |
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| EK9Hatch |
I get so much anxiety even thinking about buying a house/condo this summer.
The sooner I can buy, the better...thats a given. But the prices are getting WAY WAY out of control. The bad thing is, it's no where near done. Houses are going up this year, next year, the year after, etc, etc.
its GREAT for those who already own, but it SUCKS for those looking to purchase.
Eventually it's going to be out of reach to buy a house. Somthing needs to change.
Jamie |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by EK9Hatch
Eventually it's going to be out of reach to buy a house. Somthing needs to change.
35 year mortgages, that's what'll change :) |
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| lowryder |
Im with you EK9,
I have no idea how my girlfriend and I will afford a decent home and together we make decent money. I honestly do not know what we will do, ANY and I am talking ANY small older home in st.albert is starting at 300 grand, how do 23 year old's take that on?
Sigh.... |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
Im with you EK9,
I have no idea how my girlfriend and I will afford a decent home and together we make decent money. I honestly do not know what we will do, ANY and I am talking ANY small older home in st.albert is starting at 300 grand, how do 23 year old's take that on?
Sigh....
I hear ya! My situation is kinda like yours, but I'm 25 and Single. Buying a house off of two incomes is hard enough...its CRAZY with only one.
Jamie. |
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| lowryder |
I was going to mention I don't see how singles would ever do it, seriously. I feel for yah man, well I feel pretty bad for myself as well haha.
Currently I still have my truck to pay off and live at home (thank god) my parents never wanted me paying rent, as long as I help out around the house and chip in with groceries they are totally fine with that)
Unfortunately my girlfriend's parents are moving out of the province and that might just leave us in a bind....
We looked at houses last year and it was a lot better pricing but it was still brutal, we looked at homes in St. Albert that were 50 years old, needed work and everyone we went to look at went over list price and ended up in a bidding war that we simply couldn't compete in.
Lots of people are living on a financial bubble I am guessing, around my area they are developing new areas with MINIMUM 2 million dollar homes, with over 50 homes I have no idea where people get that money...but I also have no idea how young people are buying up these 50 year old 1000sq ft holmes with no garage for 300k. Like if mortgage rates go up in the next few years are we going to be seing LOTS of foreclosures?
I almost feel like ill have to move out of the province if I ever want to find something afordable.
And yes I "know" people are going to say we havn't caught up to calgary and blah blah blah.. |
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| S2000_rider |
| Why don't you guys look at Condo's? Condo living is pretty good. You can pick up a nice 2/2 bed/bath 1000sqft, indoor parking for around $270K. If you have kids then I can see how this can be an issue but if you're a young couple then a Condo would be great...again, MUCH cheaper! |
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| lowryder |
Even condo's in St. Albert are getting super pricey with condo fees added.
Add the fact that we have a 60 lb lab (most condo's don't allow pets this big)
Plus I have two trucks and two dirtbikes a decent sized garage is a must.
Seems like I have screwed myself from the get-go allready? |
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| Transporter |
they now have 40 year mortages.. to allow u to get in on this
like you said your self said it get worse each day taht goes by |
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| rexxrally |
| It could be worse. We could be in Japan or some parts of Europe, where people accept it as normal that they will never be able to buy a house in their lifetime, due to limited availability and sky high prices..... |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
Even condo's in St. Albert are getting super pricey with condo fees added.
Add the fact that we have a 60 lb lab (most condo's don't allow pets this big)
Plus I have two trucks and two dirtbikes a decent sized garage is a must.
Seems like I have screwed myself from the get-go allready?
You'll just need to make a lifestyle change, that's all. Sell one of trucks and dirtbikes, grab a cheap condo, and start saving your money for when the foreclosures start happening.
And there's lots of "cheap condos" around... hell you can still buy a piece of shit condo in Oliver for $120,000. Spend double (still only $240K), and you've got a half decent place for relatively cheap.
Just start looking ASAP... it's not going to get any better as summer rolls around. |
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| EK9Hatch |
Condo's are a option in my future (actually it makes perfect sense for me being single and all) The only problem I have with a Condo is having no garage. I almost feel like I NEED a garage. I plan on buying a Viper this summer...so I need somewhere to park it/clean and detail it. I know I can always rent storage, but I also work on Hondas, etc and like having the space.
As for the comment about maybe having to move out of Alberta to afford a house, thats something I was thinking about as well.
Back in my hometown (Saint John, New Brunswick) you can buy a nice 4-5 bedroom 2 storey house for $90k-$150k. The difference from up here to down there is INSANE!!!
Back in N.B. you can buy a 6-8 Unit Apartment building, all bringing in $400-$500/month per unit, for about $300k. The potential income is a good idea in my book.
I noticed that they are starting to sell ordinary apartments as "condos" now. Most are selling between $100k-$150k. Even though its kinda gay to buy an apartment, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense as an investment opportunity. Why rent an apartment when you can take that monthly rent and put it towards your own equity? A 100k mortgage isnt that much...so imo its a great idea (not to mention, you could simply buy the apt. and rent it out...so someone else pays your monthly mortgage.
Jamie |
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| lowryder |
| Well of course it could always be worse, it's just a hard pill to swallow when a few years ago when I was finishing up my schooling buying a home was something that I knew would be in my reach in a few years (nice homes with double attached garages were 175-190k, but in those few years housing has gone up 50-60 some odd percent in some areas making it just seem that this is a hopeless battle for young people working hard for their money. The first house I ever went to look at just to guage what I could afford a year and a half ago was 178k in st.albert, that same house sold at x-mas for 299k |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by EK9Hatch
Condo's are a option in my future (actually it makes perfect sense for me being single and all) The only problem I have with a Condo is having no garage. I almost feel like I NEED a garage. I plan on buying a Viper this summer...so I need somewhere to park it/clean and detail it. I know I can always rent storage, but I also work on Hondas, etc and like having the space.
As for the comment about maybe having to move out of Alberta to afford a house, thats something I was thinking about as well.
Back in my hometown (Saint John, New Brunswick) you can buy a nice 4-5 bedroom 2 storey house for $90k-$150k. The difference from up here to down there is INSANE!!!
Back in N.B. you can buy a 6-8 Unit Apartment building, all bringing in $400-$500/month per unit, for about $300k. The potential income is a good idea in my book.
Also, I noticed that they are starting to sell ordinary apartments as "condos" now. Most are selling between $100k-$150k. Even though its kinda gay to buy an apartment, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense as an investment opportunity. Why rent an apartment when you can take that monthly rent and put it towards your own equity? A 100k mortgage isnt that much...so imo its a great idea (not to mention, you could simply buy the apt. and rent it out...so someone else pays your monthly mortgage.
Jamie
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| lowryder |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
You'll just need to make a lifestyle change, that's all. Sell one of trucks and dirtbikes, grab a cheap condo, and start saving your money for when the foreclosures start happening.
And there's lots of "cheap condos" around... hell you can still buy a piece of shit condo in Oliver for $120,000. Spend double (still only $240K), and you've got a half decent place for relatively cheap.
Just start looking ASAP... it's not going to get any better as summer rolls around.
I guess that's the problem, I don't feel I am bullheaded or anything like that but selling the trucks arn't an option. One is my daily driver and one is a show truck that I built from scratch, started the build when I was 17 and I am just finishing it now, to sell it would be totally senseless. With my time and $$$ I easily have 50k into, I would NEVER see that much back.
As for the bikes, that's basically my life. Even if I sold one bike (my practice bike) it won't do me any good because I still need a garage to work on and maintain my race bike.
Like I mentioned, I pretty much shot myself in the foot on this one. |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
Like I mentioned, I pretty much shot myself in the foot on this one.
You can build another truck later... but the equity you'd gain in a single year of home ownership in Alberta right now will take you 10 years to build any other time. Gotta look long term.
But as long as you're comfortable with letting one dirtbike and one truck stand in the way of the smartest financial decision you'll ever make :)
Anyway... I don't mean to lecture :beer: |
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| ae1969 |
New way of thinking.
Think of it as step wise upgrades.
Apartment condo -> Townhouse condo -> Bungalow -> Dream home.
The average individual will not get passed Townhouse condo living in this new age.
Some will live in an apartment condo all there lives.
Single -> Get married -> have kids -> die -> leave condo to kids.
YES you may have to sacrifice. Only one vehicle, no yard, etc...
BUT There are deals out there. I am offering a deal right now and no one is willing to step up. I made a conscious choice to allow someone to have an opportunity at making some equity and no one is biting.
Not making a decision is actually worse than making a bad one. Procrastination is the enemy to success.
Just my humble 2 cents of advice. |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by EK9Hatch
Condo's are a option in my future (actually it makes perfect sense for me being single and all) The only problem I have with a Condo is having no garage. I almost feel like I NEED a garage. I plan on buying a Viper this summer...so I need somewhere to park it/clean and detail it. I know I can always rent storage, but I also work on Hondas, etc and like having the space.
I think your priorities are a little screwed up if you are planning on buying a viper but having problems putting a decent roof over your head...
And remember how much less you would be making in your home town. Assuming you wouldn't be on unemployment. :p |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
New way of thinking.
Think of it as step wise upgrades.
Apartment condo -> Townhouse condo -> Bungalow -> Dream home.
The average individual will not get passed Townhouse condo living in this new age.
Some will live in an apartment condo all there lives.
Single -> Get married -> have kids -> die -> leave condo to kids.
YES you may have to sacrifice. Only one vehicle, no yard, etc...
BUT There are deals out there. I am offering a deal right now and no one is willing to step up. I made a conscious choice to allow someone to have an opportunity at making some equity and no one is biting.
Not making a decision is actually worse than making a bad one. Procrastination is the enemy to success.
Just my humble 2 cents of advice.
With the current market value, your townhouse is pretty well priced. If I was in a position to get a mortgage right now, I would be very interested. Too bad this wasnt around in 4-5 months.
Jamie |
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| lowryder |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
New way of thinking.
Think of it as step wise upgrades.
Apartment condo -> Townhouse condo -> Bungalow -> Dream home.
The average individual will not get passed Townhouse condo living in this new age.
Some will live in an apartment condo all there lives.
Single -> Get married -> have kids -> die -> leave condo to kids.
YES you may have to sacrifice. Only one vehicle, no yard, etc...
BUT There are deals out there. I am offering a deal right now and no one is willing to step up. I made a conscious choice to allow someone to have an opportunity at making some equity and no one is biting.
Not making a decision is actually worse than making a bad one. Procrastination is the enemy to success.
Just my humble 2 cents of advice.
I am allready pre-approved for a mortgage but can't get ahold of anyone about the 60 lb lab or your condo would be sold right now.:mad: I keep getting the message for grandin phase 3 blah blah and my gf's call wasn't returned. Anyways my girlfriend HAS to find a place as her parents are moving so it's not even a question, if the doggie gets approved she's sold haha. |
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| GQsmooth |
| it will be levelling off, and by 2008 there should be a hard drop..As the economy will realize, the younger generations can't afford it. |
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| JustinL |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
I was going to mention I don't see how singles would ever do it, seriously. I feel for yah man, well I feel pretty bad for myself as well haha.
In the last 2 years it has gotten a LOT harder to do. I think I managed to move at the perfect times almost by pure accident. I bought my first house 3 years ago which was financially a bit of a stretch for me. I sold that house last year at the end of August and took that profit to put down on the house I bought in January. Without the equity I had built in my first home, I wouldn't have been able to get anywhere close to my new house.
My advice is to get in ASAP if you have the means. Get a condo or a townhouse and store your toys. The market has been steaming ahead even in the traditionally slow months. You would need to make some seriously sharp investments to beat the local housing market over the summer. |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL
I bought my first house 3 years ago
I bought in 7 years ago. I missed the boat on cheap real-estate while up in Fort Mac prior, but got my 2nd chance when I moved to Edmonton in 2000. |
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| lowryder |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
You can build another truck later... but the equity you'd gain in a single year of home ownership in Alberta right now will take you 10 years to build any other time. Gotta look long term.
But as long as you're comfortable with letting one dirtbike and one truck stand in the way of the smartest financial decision you'll ever make :)
Anyway... I don't mean to lecture :beer:
Yes I could build another truck later but I don't see the purpose in that, I started this truck when I was 18 (19?) with my own bare hands, it's been a six year project with the help from many many friends, TONS of hours were put into it, literally tons, that truck has my heart and soul in it as well as many many friends that helped make it possible. Ive always told myself I would never sell it to make a quick buck.
Put yourself in my shoes, if you bought that M3 in your sig for 50 grand and you loved that car to death, it was everything you wanted in a car and you knew you would never grow tired of it, keep in mind there is no other M3 like it and you will never be able to get another one for 50 grand again,
Would you sell it for 15 to put down on a house? Or would you find another way to come up with 15 grand?
I appriciate any advice I can get, please don't get me wrong on that. I just can't realisticly sell a truck that I have maybe 800-900 hours into and flip it for a measily 15 grand (probably all I would get for it)
As for my 2nd bike, it's maybe worth 4grand on a good day, I can't see 4 grand helping me now haha.
I think I am a smart guy though I have my priorities straight, I had plans to move out last year, was pre-approved for a mortgage, had some $$ in the bank but then my mother got sick and I stayed at home with my family to take care of her. In just one year it went from being a reality to a distant reality.
Anyways I realize there are a bajillion trucks out there, but there is just too much sentimental value in this one. |
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| am10 |
If you have a truck that you dont want to sell cuz you might take a hit on it... dont worry about it, SELL IT~!
Ex) Sell your $50,000 truck at $20,000 and take that money and put a deposit down on a $300,000 house or condo.
with prices going up by a "conservative" 15% you will make about $45,000 for that quick move... WORST CASE SCENARIO!!
and sky's the limit... if we see big jumps in real estate this year again... then you will be laughing!!
whatever you do... dump some money in some real estate this year...
Ride the WAVE boys!! :lol: |
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| REDX2NV |
| WOOOT, my house went up $125k this year, sell, sell, sell. |
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| DeathBy240 |
| I just wish I could have bought two houses when I bought mine. Oh well at least I got in before it got too crazy (1.5 yrs ago) |
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| ae1969 |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
Yes I could build another truck later but I don't see the purpose in that, I started this truck when I was 18 (19?) with my own bare hands, it's been a six year project with the help from many many friends, TONS of hours were put into it, literally tons, that truck has my heart and soul in it as well as many many friends that helped make it possible. Ive always told myself I would never sell it to make a quick buck.
Put yourself in my shoes, if you bought that M3 in your sig for 50 grand and you loved that car to death, it was everything you wanted in a car and you knew you would never grow tired of it, keep in mind there is no other M3 like it and you will never be able to get another one for 50 grand again,
Would you sell it for 15 to put down on a house? Or would you find another way to come up with 15 grand?
I appriciate any advice I can get, please don't get me wrong on that. I just can't realisticly sell a truck that I have maybe 800-900 hours into and flip it for a measily 15 grand (probably all I would get for it)
As for my 2nd bike, it's maybe worth 4grand on a good day, I can't see 4 grand helping me now haha.
I think I am a smart guy though I have my priorities straight, I had plans to move out last year, was pre-approved for a mortgage, had some $$ in the bank but then my mother got sick and I stayed at home with my family to take care of her. In just one year it went from being a reality to a distant reality.
Anyways I realize there are a bajillion trucks out there, but there is just too much sentimental value in this one.
If you really want to keep the truck go ahead and store it. Otherwise let it go for a loss. Never get attached to material things. Big mistake.
When that truck does finally go (sold, accident, stolen), absolutely nothing in your life will change. BUT the Time, sweat and tears you put in that truck will not be lost.
The benefits of completing such projects are the changes they make in the individual.
The ability to reach a goal, the ability to persevere, the drive to do it your way. They make you who you are.
This is your truck speaking "Please Sell me... for your own good" |
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| lowryder |
I realize I am not to get attached to material things, to be honest I am not "attached to it"
Not in that sense,
Do I love the truck? Yes I do, if someone offered me what I had into it minus some of my time it would be sold. But I built the truck for me to my specs, so until I find a buyer who wants all those things that will never happen.
I refuse to be one of those guys who gave away his toy and still talks about it 40 years later as one of his biggest regrets. Like I said the truck is almost done, all the parts are paid for, all the labor is done by me. Ill be dammed if I finish it just to sell it a few months later.
15 grand doesn't make that big of a difference to me, I would rather just add that 15 grand onto my mortgage and keep the truck.
Maybe that sounds stupid but that's just the way I feel. If my truck spoke it wouldn't say sell me, it would say just finish me damn it I am sick of being in a garage haha.
My truck is no different to me than the guy who got the old car passed down his dad in the will. Still a material item, still holds loads of sentimental value, it would be crazy to give that up for 15 grand, at the end of the day what is 15 grand compared to a life long "damn I wish I never sold that car/truck" |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
I realize I am not to get attached to material things, to be honest I am not "attached to it"
Not in that sense,
Do I love the truck? Yes I do, if someone offered me what I had into it minus some of my time it would be sold. But I built the truck for me to my specs, so until I find a buyer who wants all those things that will never happen.
I refuse to be one of those guys who gave away his toy and still talks about it 40 years later as one of his biggest regrets. Like I said the truck is almost done, all the parts are paid for, all the labor is done by me. Ill be dammed if I finish it just to sell it a few months later.
15 grand doesn't make that big of a difference to me, I would rather just add that 15 grand onto my mortgage and keep the truck.
Maybe that sounds stupid but that's just the way I feel. If my truck spoke it wouldn't say sell me, it would say just finish me damn it I am sick of being in a garage haha.
My truck is no different to me than the guy who got the old car passed down his dad in the will. Still a material item, still holds loads of sentimental value, it would be crazy to give that up for 15 grand, at the end of the day what is 15 grand compared to a life long "damn I wish I never sold that car/truck"
I think we're under the impression that you feel you can't get a condo because you've got two trucks, which is why we're all saying fuck the truck, get a condo :) What we're really trying to say is... store the truck, buy a condo ASAP, and find a house with a nice big garage when you can reasonably afford it.
:beer: |
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| Blaine B. |
quote:
Originally posted by GQsmooth
it will be levelling off, and by 2008 there should be a hard drop..As the economy will realize, the younger generations can't afford it.
Tell that to to Japan and most of western Europe. |
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| REDX2NV |
| Thats where your wrong, the younger genrations can afford it. |
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| Transporter |
yes they can with option like 35 and 40 years and soon 45 years
every month u don't buy in is the month you lose, and don't worry if people in edmonton who been living here can't affor teh influs of immigaration to edmonton will pick up where they left off
it is expected 30k people will move to edmonton in spring, and they are all coming here with some sort of money to either buy or rent.
the busiet time for more agenst was in december last year (our so called market slow season)
for comparrison two town house in my complex one sold in 2nd week jan for 267k
the other one sold mid feb for 292k
both are exactly the same no difference and are end units in a fourplex.
draw ur on own conclusion, i got in and i am glad i did even though it is single car garage with barely no room to work on the car. |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by Blaine B.
Tell that to to Japan and most of western Europe.
Japan and Europe isn't Canada. We have the worlds largest undeveloped land mass. We can build outward forever. Japan/WE don't have the luxuries or resources we do.
People forget their history. The oil booms never last. Everyone THINKS they will last forever, but, they never do.
Everyone has forgotten our last bust (I'm here reminding people that will listen). All economic CYCLES (and that's all this is) swing from Boom-stability-bust or some variation. Yesterdays 450 point drop on the TSX was a nice WAKE UP CALL.
I lived through the big recession, the upward swing, the boom, and we will have good times 'for a while' (no one knows for sure when it will start to go down). Then it will go down hard and fast, and people panic AGAIN (just like most of your are panicking now).
It's hard to think in 10-15 year cycles, but once you go through one of these, you'll be able to cope with it much easier.
I feel sad for some of you younger guys. Trapped into this consumerist lifestyle, wanting one thing, but having zero idea how to get there. By the time you figure it out, life will have passed you by. (The writing is on the wall, it's passing some of you by as I write this...).
And don't get stuck by the 'must buy now' panic everyone spreads. Its' the lemmings leading the lemmings. |
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| REDX2NV |
Right,
The oil companies know best, they wouldnt be spending billions of dollars in new oilsand mine pits and upgraders if there was no return. |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by REDX2NV
Right,
The oil companies know best, they wouldnt be spending billions of dollars in new oilsand mine pits and upgraders if there was no return.
Oil companies don't set the price of oil. None of the oil sands projects make money if oil is around $40/barrel.
Even this last dip to $55/barrel sent the infinitely wise oil companies for a scare (not to mention the investment bankers).
(And it's not the 'oil' companies that are spending billions, it's our 1% tax, the shareholders, Americans etc money that are paying for the oilsands development). |
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| 92_WhItE_H23 |
| my landlord is a Remax Elite agent and he owns over 45 houses.. our lease just ended and we have to move out, we asked him why, he basicly just said because the market is going to crash sometime soon and he wants out before he loses money on his assets. i basicly told him its a crock look at the way the market is, and he said hes been doing this over 50 years he very well knows whats going to happen..long story short, within the next year to two the market will restabilize despite the predictions of the banks (most of whom are just trying to get people to buy right now). i tend to believe a multimillionaire who knows nothing other then realestate.. i wonder if its true tho |
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| S2000_rider |
quote:
Originally posted by 92_WhItE_H23
my landlord is a Remax Elite agent and he owns over 45 houses.. our lease just ended and we have to move out, we asked him why, he basicly just said because the market is going to crash sometime soon and he wants out before he loses money on his assets. i basicly told him its a crock look at the way the market is, and he said hes been doing this over 50 years he very well knows whats going to happen..long story short, within the next year to two the market will restabilize despite the predictions of the banks (most of whom are just trying to get people to buy right now). i tend to believe a multimillionaire who knows nothing other then realestate.. i wonder if its true tho
crash as in? confused, cause then you mentioned restablize. |
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| newred |
I bought my place in Spruce Grove last year in March for $260,000 & now they are selling the same house a Block away for $446,000. I happy in bought when in did. Also I think that it is never to late to buy a place. why pay rent & have no control over where you live...
just my .02 |
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| lowryder |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
I think we're under the impression that you feel you can't get a condo because you've got two trucks, which is why we're all saying fuck the truck, get a condo :) What we're really trying to say is... store the truck, buy a condo ASAP, and find a house with a nice big garage when you can reasonably afford it.
:beer:
Sorry, I might have not properly explained myself. I don't have a problem living in a condo and I might very well do so.
It just seems as a life choice it's not very practical for me (my girlfriend had a large dog) I am a major backyard mechanic and tend to really like having a garage to calm myself and use it as my enjoyment time (working on vehicles for a little side cash, or working on my bike or whatever)
As far as trucks go, my dad said I can keep it at his acerage for as long as I like so I am not worried about that. One thing that worries me is having to give up things ive worked so hard for just to get a condo that i may or may not be happy with (I do realize real estate is a huge investment and a very worthwhile one when a vehicle isn't)
I guess my intial post was just more geared at the overall picture, ignore the fact that I have a few assets, pretend I spent that $$ on rent and I finally want to get out. Both my girlfriend and I combined make pretty decent money, nothing amazing, for for two 23 year old's we are doing fairly well. With the current trends even with both of us doing well it's very hard to find a place (condo or home) that is affordable. We would really love to be in the St.Albert area or even the morinville area but anything in these parts is climbing upwards of 300 grand for a very very basic starter home that needs work.
A few ideas I have had was thinking about getting an acre or two of land outside st.albert more towards the namao area and putting down a premanufactured home and a shop for me to do work in, then once we build equity and get a head start we can start building our own home on the land and sell the premanufactured home....
I dunno, just a thought.
As far as my toys go, I know I will always have a nice warm place to store them. I am more concerned about the 300k price that we are going to have to come up with. How are we ever suppose to start a family when all our incoming cash is tied into a mortage payment? |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
Im with you EK9,
I have no idea how my girlfriend and I will afford a decent home and together we make decent money. I honestly do not know what we will do, ANY and I am talking ANY small older home in st.albert is starting at 300 grand, how do 23 year old's take that on?
Sigh....
It's not hard at all to be able to afford real estate in today's market. All it takes is hard work and strong will power to acheive that goal.
Everyone wants the brand new house, white picket fence, BMW in the driveway and the wife at home taking care of the 2.5 kids. The problem is that most are not willing to work for it.
I've said it time and time again to anyone that will listen, if your goal is home ownership then adjust your priorities as such. If it means working two jobs, work two jobs. If it means taking a lunch to work, take a lunch to work. If it means hitting up the dollar theatre instead of Silver City, hit up the dollar theatre.
The bottom line is that a 300K mortgage is attainable by anyone that is willing to work hard to reach the goal. Especially in this economy, you don't even need any special skills to make 40-50K/year doing a labour job that any male or female can do. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ae1969
BUT There are deals out there. I am offering a deal right now and no one is willing to step up. I made a conscious choice to allow someone to have an opportunity at making some equity and no one is biting.
I'm trying my hardest to get a buddy to pony up and take the place off your hands (Ever since you emailed me the pics) but his girlfriend says it's not "nice enough" for her.
People don't seem to realize, they need to live within their means. If you can't afford to live on Heffernan Drive, then you can't live on Heffernan Drive.
It's extremely generous of you to allow a home buyer to score a deal on your unit, when you could be selling it for much more through a realtor. I commend you, putting profit aside just to help someone else out. |
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| stealth |
With the way the economy is, all you need to have is a descent pay, and you can afford these rising houses.
I myself am 19, and went to a mortgage broker to see what I can afford. I was actually surprised! I thought I would be shit out of luck, but I am able to purchase a new house, and that is on a 25 year mortgage.
One of the key points is to have a descent down payment.
I won't buy a house anytime soon, I will just continue to live at home. The reason is because in the back of my mind, I know what the houses used to be worth... |
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| RoB |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
You can build another truck later... but the equity you'd gain in a single year of home ownership in Alberta right now will take you 10 years to build any other time. Gotta look long term.
Exactly, I bought a house 2 years ago for $195,000 and its worth about $340,000 right now. My wife and I bought her house for $165,000 and its worth just under $300,000 right now. They aren't getting any cheaper so get one when u can.... |
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| ehos |
Good advice. Same advice we've been giving for the past year and a half.
If you CAN buy, and you're qualified. Step up and do it.
There was someone here looking for a Condo in the 90K range, and I think she eventually wound up buying. Those same condos are 150K. |
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| Transporter |
ehos u confusing
in previous post i thought u werre saying don't buy houses
"And don't get stuck by the 'must buy now' panic everyone spreads. Its' the lemmings leading the lemmings."
and in the above post u are pro for house buying
ur previous post was right after mine
my opinion : if u can afford a 800-1000 dollar rent u might as well consider a mortgage casue at min. you are paying into your self. |
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| lowryder |
This is just my offtopic little peeve,
But I hate when people say
"Man I bought my house for 150grand and now it's worth 300grand, I just made 150grand I am so loaded now, in a year or two now I will have enough equity to buy a bigger badder house.
While this IS true, you "did" make 150grand in equity that bigger badder house that was 300grand is now 450grand or 500grand, so there goes that 150k profit sunk right back into another house that may or may not be worth that in a few years.
So many people seem to be house rich and go nuts when in reality everything keeping going up, it's all the same poop really.
My friends parents did this, they had a nice acerage paid off, bought it all for 256k, sold it for 700k 14 years later, they keep on telling me how they just made 500k and it was a blessing. Then they went and spent 800k on a smaller newer home with less land....weird.
Stealth, it's hard huh? Knowing a place went for 140k last year and now it's 288k, it just feels like you are bending over and being forced to smile while getting it :dunno: |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
This is just my offtopic little peeve,
But I hate when people say
"Man I bought my house for 150grand and now it's worth 300grand, I just made 150grand I am so loaded now, in a year or two now I will have enough equity to buy a bigger badder house.
I agree, you only made the money if you downgrade or do something like move back with your parents (or owned more than one place). Otherwise it really doesn't matter.
I personally wish my house didn't go up a dollar since I built it. Because when I built it for 300 I could have built a (reasonable) dream home for 500 grand. Now my place may be worth 450-500, but that dream home is now 750-800. So what would have cost me 200 grand to upgrade to 2 years ago would now cost me up to 300 grand to make the same upgrade. So I am actually worse off (and so are most people if they would actually think about it).
I'm just glad I built just as things were really starting to move up. It is funny to think that the house I lived in before only went up from 130 to 170 in just over 4 years. I wish I would have been able to keep it as a rental property because it would be going for 300-350 now. Damn hindsight! |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
I agree, you only made the money if you downgrade or do something like move back with your parents (or owned more than one place). Otherwise it really doesn't matter.
Or for those that leverage our home equity for investing - I think they're the real winners. |
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| am10 |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
This is just my offtopic little peeve,
While this IS true, you "did" make 150grand in equity that bigger badder house that was 300grand is now 450grand or 500grand, so there goes that 150k profit sunk right back into another house that may or may not be worth that in a few years.
So many people seem to be house rich and go nuts when in reality everything keeping going up, it's all the same poop really.
My friends parents did this, they had a nice acerage paid off, bought it all for 256k, sold it for 700k 14 years later, they keep on telling me how they just made 500k and it was a blessing. Then they went and spent 800k on a smaller newer home with less land....weird.
This is obvious, but you are making the big bucks when this is an actual business for you; When you are not selling your own house, but selling a bunch of investment properties you picked up because you new the market was gonna jump :blue: .... then you make the $$$!!
GET IN NOW!!!
standard 32' pocket lots are starting to sell for mid 200's this spring... its gonna be wild!!
and as for you guys talking mortgages and all, has anyone considered assumables???? |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by am10
and as for you guys talking mortgages and all, has anyone considered assumables????
Not really an option for most people in this market because most of the people selling houses purchased them a few years ago so they are now selling a house for say 400 grand with a 250 grand mortgage or a 300 grand house with a 150 grand mortgage. Most people can't assume those mortgages because they don't have the 150+ grand to put down as a down payment.
And Trevor, I didn't want to get into that because most of the people that brag about their equity don't do that. They just 'think' they have a ton of money but really they don't. |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
assumables?
Not many out there. Why would there be in a hot market?
Transporter:
Sorry to confuse. I say don't be a lemming if you can't afford it/don't get sucked into the hype. Don't leverage yourself out buying a 350-400K (average) house that you will need 25 years to pay off. For a few years it will be OK, but if it's hurting now, think about the next 5 years... What happens when the market turns down (it will)??
If you can afford it, you should buy now (obviously). The most annoying/stupid people are the guys/gals that are qualified, have good jobs, etc etc. And they're still hemming and hawing. Make up your mind (step up or get out of the way). These are the same people that come back in 6 months and go, OH! I SHOULD'VE... if ONLY... I KNEW IT!
Profit: You can't make money this year buying and selling a house unless you know a broker. EVEN if the market goes up 15% you will break even.
(7% commission on selling + 1 year of mortgage payments with 0 gain in equity...). Ex. 300K House = 345K - 7% = 320K. Minus 24000 in mortgage payments (not counting utilities/maint etc).
If you are buying, buy for the long term with affordability in mind. This 52% year was a lucky break. |
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| JustinL |
| Interesting analysis ehos. I would just suggest that you consider a portion of the mortgage payments as a sunk cost. Because you don't need to pay rent, the money that would go to a landlord can be subtracted from the mortgage payment number you provided. This also holds true for a portion of the utilities. |
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| am10 |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Not many out there. Why would there be in a hot market?
Transporter:
Sorry to confuse. I say don't be a lemming if you can't afford it/don't get sucked into the hype. Don't leverage yourself out buying a 350-400K (average) house that you will need 25 years to pay off. For a few years it will be OK, but if it's hurting now, think about the next 5 years... What happens when the market turns down (it will)??
If you can afford it, you should buy now (obviously). The most annoying/stupid people are the guys/gals that are qualified, have good jobs, etc etc. And they're still hemming and hawing. Make up your mind (step up or get out of the way). These are the same people that come back in 6 months and go, OH! I SHOULD'VE... if ONLY... I KNEW IT!
Profit: You can't make money this year buying and selling a house unless you know a broker. EVEN if the market goes up 15% you will break even.
(7% commission on selling + 1 year of mortgage payments with 0 gain in equity...). Ex. 300K House = 345K - 7% = 320K. Minus 24000 in mortgage payments (not counting utilities/maint etc).
If you are buying, buy for the long term with affordability in mind. This 52% year was a lucky break.
Dude, there are assumables EVERYWHERE!!! All the houses that i have for sale are assumables as well. Mind you, you have a point... they are HIGH assumables. But you just have to look around for the right price.
I purchased a house last month, $174,000... with a 40K assumable. So it isnt THAT much...
And as for the math calc's... mind you the 15% is what is estimated... its a conservative #... just like last years 13% estimate!!! I started buying houses to try to make $20-30K on each house... then the market went nuts... it was a good move... and it still is... |
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| DoubleDown |
| Disregard... I smoke the good stuff. |
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| SilverZ24 |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
Not to mention the interest on your mortgage payments are tax-free if it's your primary residence. So subtract 44% (or whatever your tax bracket is) of the interest because you'll get that back.
Highest tax bracket in Alberta is 39%.
And this isn't the US so how are you getting money back based on your mortgage interest??? |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
Highest tax bracket in Alberta is 39%.
And this isn't the US so how are you getting money back based on your mortgage interest???
Yeah disregard that post... I was confused. |
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| ehos |
| Do you own a house? You can't deduct mortgage payments from your taxes unless you're American (or a few cases of investment income). |
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| EK9Hatch |
I agree that even those who got into the market before the HUGE inflation are not really profiting from this. Sure they might have gainned 150k of equity in one year....but as a previous post said, if you go to sell your house for something bigger and better, all those houses are inflated now too. So really it gets you no where.
BUT, if you chose to move outside Alberta, you could be very well off.
Like I said before, you can buy a 2000+ square foot home in N.B. for under $160k. After selling your Alberta home, this would leave you very well off. Although, you would probably be unemployed and living off savings lol.
Jamie |
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| SilverZ24 |
| ^ yeah, EI cheques only last so long. :p |
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| ReasonOne |
I feel the pain of the people that can't afford a house. I remember a time in my very early 20's where I decided that I wanted a home. But the prices seemed outlandish at the time ($130K for a house? geez... there's no way I can afford that - if I only knew). So I sat down and did the math. I wasn't making much money and I was living at home while financially supporting my mother at the same time. My friends thought I was crazy because most of them thought "it was too much responsibility to own a house" and "I wanna have fun instead".
First order of business, I paid off my student loans in cash with all the money I made for 6 months straight. I never ate out, I cancelled the cable, I didn't buy any new clothes or go to the movies. I saw very little of my friends (other than the few that didn't mind doing stuff that didn't cost a lot). Finally when student loans were paid off, I could start saving for a house.
I basically slashed my fun money by 8/10ths, sold both of my cars so I could bank some of the money and bought only cars that held their value or cheap beaters. I worked 2 full time jobs and fixed PC's for people in my neighborhood on the side. I had no life for at least 3 years. I saved half of my income and put it in my "house fund" and had them subdivided into various types of investment vehicles (stock, bonds, RRSP, GIC's, mutual funds, term deposits, and so on). If I ever sold my car I banked the profit and used the original purchase price as a max budget for my next one.
Next thing I know, suddenly I have just enough cash scraped together to buy a nice house. But I can't move out and leave my mom in crappy neighborhood so I give her just enough of my savings so that she could move up to a townhouse in a better neighborhood. Her mortgage was low enough so that I didn't need to be there anymore to help financially. I decide settle with a hole in the wall apartment in a shitty part of town to call my own. It was clean, cheap and mine.
After I did this, everything else fell into place. It's funny, because the friends that said that it was too much work and responsibility to own a place in our early twenties suddenly thought I was rich by our mid twenties. No, I wasn't wealthy - it took a lot of discipline and re-prioritizing to sacrifice what I did to reach my goal. I put up with a lot - being made fun of for not driving a trick ride, having the trendiest clothes, going to the most expensive places and travelling internationally like a lot of my friends were doing at the time. Being a "have not" in a circle of "have" friends is not easy and not fun. Now that they were looking they wish they made the decision I did.
Not that most of them didn't have the bank of Mom and Dad to run to when the prices got too high. Which is fine if you have that avenue, but for me - taking money from my parents would have taken away from the experience of buying my first place. I wanted to know that I could do it myself. Being disciplined, focused and knowing what you want (and going for it) will never steer you wrong.
Now I own a beautiful little home with my girlfriend. The financial part of ownership is great but it means more to me that we have something that we both built together. My girlfriend, like myself refused to take money from her parents for her first condo. The pride of "going it alone" meant more. Hang in there. Whenever you think you'll never find something in your price range, a really good deal might come along once in a blue moon. If you find one, grab it.
Bear in mind that there are condos with attached garages that are a little cheaper than homes. Keep an eye out for those. Also tell your friends, family and co-workers that you want to get into the market.... you may be surprised by the deal someone you know might give you.
I blabbed for a while....sorry about that....just my opinion and my two cents. |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder
This is just my offtopic little peeve,
But I hate when people say
"Man I bought my house for 150grand and now it's worth 300grand, I just made 150grand I am so loaded now, in a year or two now I will have enough equity to buy a bigger badder house.
While this IS true, you "did" make 150grand in equity that bigger badder house that was 300grand is now 450grand or 500grand, so there goes that 150k profit sunk right back into another house that may or may not be worth that in a few years.
So many people seem to be house rich and go nuts when in reality everything keeping going up, it's all the same poop really.
My friends parents did this, they had a nice acerage paid off, bought it all for 256k, sold it for 700k 14 years later, they keep on telling me how they just made 500k and it was a blessing. Then they went and spent 800k on a smaller newer home with less land....weird.
Stealth, it's hard huh? Knowing a place went for 140k last year and now it's 288k, it just feels like you are bending over and being forced to smile while getting it :dunno:
Yea no doubt man.
And I agree with everything you said. You are not making money unless you move to some small ass town in Saskatchewan, where houses of equivalence are half price. Or if you own two houses, and sell one, and continue to live in your other one. |
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| EK9Hatch |
With the prices of housing, for some people it almost makes better sense to continue to rent and be hassle free. Renting does have its advantages. Right now I am renting a 3 bedroom house with a hottub room and 4 car garage. Rent is $950/month plus Utils. I have one roomate and we pay on average about $575 each per month to live here.
I couldn't own for that price obviously and it's nice that when something breaks or is wrong with the house, I just call the landlord and it's fixed.
I still want to own my own house and do plan on buying this summer. But renting under the right circumstances can be the way to go.
Jamie |
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| stealth |
quote:
Originally posted by EK9Hatch
With the prices of housing, for some people it almost makes better sense to continue to rent and be hassle free. Renting does have its advantages. Right now I am renting a 3 bedroom house with a hottub room and 4 car garage. Rent is $950/month plus Utils. I have one roomate and we pay on average about $575 each per month to live here.
I couldn't own for that price obviously and it's nice that when something breaks or is wrong with the house, I just call the landlord and it's fixed.
I still want to own my own house and do plan on buying this summer. But renting under the right circumstances can be the way to go.
Jamie
Although that may be your personal preference. I would rather just have a mortgage on some ghetto house in the Belvedere area, at least I have something in the end. |
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| EK9Hatch |
quote:
Originally posted by stealth
Although that may be your personal preference. I would rather just have a mortgage on some ghetto house in the Belvedere area, at least I have something in the end.
Yea thats true as well. All I'm saying is that for some people it may be a better idea to rent. If you have a small income, the costs of maintaining a house may be to much to take on.
Some people don't realize all the hidden costs of owning a house.
Jamie |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverZ24
Highest tax bracket in Alberta is 39%.
And this isn't the US so how are you getting money back based on your mortgage interest???
Although if you are renting out a basement suite, or a room or two, you can write off half of your mortgage interest, half of your upgrades, etc. Well so long as you're claiming the rental income that is. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
Although if you are renting out a basement suite, or a room or two, you can write off half of your mortgage interest, half of your upgrades, etc. Well so long as you're claiming the rental income that is.
Just as a sidenote, I hope you've gone through the rules to see what is a capital vs current expense according to the CRA? |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
Although if you are renting out a basement suite, or a room or two, you can write off half of your mortgage interest, half of your upgrades, etc. Well so long as you're claiming the rental income that is.
You'll have to pay capital gains on that portion of the house when you sell it though, and in this market, the tax on those gains probably outweighs the rental income (after taxes). |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
You'll have to pay capital gains on that portion of the house when you sell it though, and in this market, the tax on those gains probably outweighs the rental income (after taxes).
If you make no capital expenses and you aren't renting out a "large portion" of your house then you won't pay capital gains since it's your primary residence.
The tricky part is determining whether you are renting a "large portion" or not. |
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| colossus |
Well I know a friend who took the plunge and bought a bungalow for $370,000. Turns out that same house sold for $160,000 just 6 years ago. Not much you can do. Just buy a house and hang on tight. He says the part that sucks the most is that his co-workers and peers bought their houses a few years earlier and have 10 years left on their mortgage while he has about 20 years to go. That sucks. My other friend who did everything right (bought a house 15 years ago, had 2 kids, rented part of the house to pay the mortgage)... well just got news that him and his wife died on the highway to Revelstoke when their SUV was struck by a semi and burst into flames. Now he's dead, and there are two motherless/fatherless children. So life seems to make no sense. Why did this happen? Don't know. But I guess what I'm trying to say is don't worry too much about $$ because life is short and you don't know what will happen tomorrow. It could all be over before you pay off your house. So just go buy a house even if you feel you're being ripped off by the marketplace/economy. Nothing you can do, the real estate market will just keep climbing until it's truly beyond the reach of most young couples.
:confused:http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald...7b-a2827332256c |
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| jberger |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Oil companies don't set the price of oil. None of the oil sands projects make money if oil is around $40/barrel.
Even this last dip to $55/barrel sent the infinitely wise oil companies for a scare (not to mention the investment bankers).
(And it's not the 'oil' companies that are spending billions, it's our 1% tax, the shareholders, Americans etc money that are paying for the oilsands development).
suncor is about 11 bucks a barrel of oil, long lake is supposed to be 7 -9 bucks a barrel , so they are making mad money when ue1 was started oil wasnt at 55 a barrel |
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| RoB |
it sucked when my wife and I split. Again, we only had about 10 years ant 100 grand to go. I got an appraisal done right before house prices shot up so she acutally got a deal when she paid my share of the equity out of our home. She remortgaged at 15 years so she could afford to stay there. I took that amount and put it down on my current place, paid off some bills etc. Though I got less in equity from her place, my place was also cheaper.
We are working on things and might end up selling one place, or the other, or perhaps both and buy something bigger. My thinking is though, as long as we can afford it, keep both places and then when we retire sell one and put that money in the bank.
Mine's 1900sq ft, 2 car garage, hers is 1200sq ft, 2 car garage. hers is newer, mine is bigger. she doesn't like mine because i bought it when we were split and "she had no part of the decision" in buying it. Duh we were apart. We are still seperated, living each in our own house as we work things out. |
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| ehos |
Sweetness!
So we should be over 400K for the average house price! Higher than TO. |
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| Lococoin |
| These increases are ridiculous. I remember buying my place 4.5 years ago for 150 grand, and was cursing how houses went up around 25k from the year before. I guess non of that matters now.:dunno: |
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| BigTrucker |
I'm laughing all the way to the bank :D
My townhouse doubled in price over the last 2 years while my house went up over 150k during construction. I'm kinda glad they took over a year to build it. |
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| EK9Hatch |
Looks like I will be buying outside the city in the country. Much, much cheaper out there.
Jamie |
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| Thalo |
I'm in the same boat as Red Sox fan guy. I need something in the city though and the prices are ridiculous. I can easily get a mortgage for a $250K townhouse, but do I want to buy something at a price that has nowhere to go but down? I mean, yeah, short term it'll go up but in the long run house prices will correct to just a bit above inflation. Long run, house prices should beat inflation by a couple percent on average, not a couple dozen percent. The current craziness in house prices in Alberta is fuelled by the oil boom and all the migration but that can stop very suddenly if oil takes a dip.
What I also worry about is the amount of spec buyers in Edmonton. All the over 35 crowd with the multiple rental properties. What happens when there's suddenly a panic and all of them unload all their properties on the market at the same time? I think it was Arizona that got hit hard over the last couple years as a result of spec buyers selling their houses.
Right now when I hear people talking about buying real estate in Edmonton and when I read some of the posts here I get this deja vu feeling of people talking about tech stocks in 1999. |
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| REDX2NV |
| keep it up.. my house is going up 25k a month :) |
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| Insomniac |
You know, it's weird. I work in an office with a bunch of new engineers that just moved from out of province, and prices are so high they are nearly priced out of the market. Engineering is a good profession, and should be lucrative in this economy, right? Any of these guys that are buying a place now are getting a condo with a roomate. Who would have thought...
On another note, I see NO way that prices will stay this high. Eventually the number of people moving here will slow down and prices will drop. Why? Because we are in the middle of f'n nowhere, a huge area of undeveloped land mass. We don't aren't crammed between mountains and the ocean, we aren't in a concrete jungle that spans 100's of km. Find me other places in the middle of farm land with prices like ours. I don't think they exists, and if they do, I bet it's due to a temporary demand. Supply and demand.... in Edmonton, there is no geographical reason for the supply to ever run out. Get it? |
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| Inzane |
Its the need and availability of WORKFORCE, not LAND, that's driving our market here.
There's no shortage of land. But there can be a shortage of houses if you don't have enough people to build them.
And why are people moving and building here? Because of all the mega-projects in Oil & Gas, Oilsands, etc. |
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| Transporter |
a lot of mega project coming about
a lot of
MEGA projects !!
no fear oil is here |
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| BigTrucker |
I don't think house prices will ever drop. They may become stable again and go back to the normal 2-5% increase each year but I don't see a crash happening here. Too many people and not enough property. Plus with the addition of the new 35 year mortgage more people are able to get a home.
I know the 35 year mortgage isn't financially best for most families but if it's gives them the opportunity to get into a home, most people take it because it beats living in their car or in a cramped apartment. |
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| Thalo |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
Its the need and availability of WORKFORCE, not LAND, that's driving our market here.
There's no shortage of land. But there can be a shortage of houses if you don't have enough people to build them.
And why are people moving and building here? Because of all the mega-projects in Oil & Gas, Oilsands, etc.
That's the risk. The demand is purely fuelled by oil. A play on Edmonton real estate is a play on oil. Last year oil was at something like $70 fuelling the labor demand in Alberta, causing homeprices to soar. Currently oil is at $60 and there are more reasons for it to go down than to go up. So far though home prices have turned a blind eye to this fact and have already artificially soared in the first couple months of this year. Once people come to realize that oil production is only at half capacity and a couple of "mega projects" get delayed due to low oil prices there will be less migration here and there will be a market correction in home prices. Especially once all the people who are waiting till spring to put their houses on sale do so.
Housing starts haven't slowed down, so supply is growing at a faster rate than last year. Insomniac is right, this home price insanity is not due to land shortage as it is around Vancouver and other major urban centers but just due to supply of new houses not being able to keep up with increase in demand. Once it does, watch out! |
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