| Cobra_R |
I need a question answered. Where I am heading in long term there is money and lots of it but in order to get there I need to be at the bottom of the totem pole.
Currently attending NAIT's CNA program.
after this I am getting a more computer oriented Job. looking after a network would be nice. But I do not know what kind of money I would be looking at.
I plan on after 2 years getting my CEH cert and going from there.
I prefer the security aspect of computing over the getting it work right aspect.
Anyone with a computer related Job what are you making on average starting in the field IE tech support Junior systems admin? |
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| Ayeso |
| I am awaiting a contract for the city of edmonton, its a 3 and a 1/2 year as a junior system analyst, pay is starting at 60,000 a year. My last job doing nearly the same thing was 25/hr so yeah the pay is up there but you do get overworked, and less pay then the average group / trades. If you are in a big city like vancouver its even worse cause there is way more IT people. |
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| Jord@n |
| I make 38 per year doing programming. Been working here a year out of CST at NAIT. :dunno: |
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| WorkInProgress |
quote:
Originally posted by Ayeso
I am awaiting a contract for the city of edmonton, its a 3 and a 1/2 year as a junior system analyst, pay is starting at 60,000 a year. My last job doing nearly the same thing was 25/hr so yeah the pay is up there but you do get overworked, and less pay then the average group / trades. If you are in a big city like vancouver its even worse cause there is way more IT people.
I don't think that's typical though, first year fresh out of school with no work experience, expect more like $30,000-$40,000/year... And then once you have a few years experience, maybe you'll be in the $50,000-$60,000 range, and the money can get even higher up, but you gotta put in lots of effort. |
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| Ayeso |
Oh guess I should have clarified woops!
Yes, I've been outta school for 2 years now. My first year I was making I think 20 bucks an hour or something around that range. |
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| dtjohnst |
No.
Simple answer, the money in computers is, generally, not comparable to money you can make in other industries.
Talk to Trevork if you want an example of how good things can be if you manage to land the right job......but it can be hard to land that job.
If you like security and that's your cup of tea, it's a shame you're in college. A Master's degree in Computer Science or 2 Bachelor's Degrees, one in Computer Science and one in Math, would land you the dream job for anyone interested in security, guaranteed job security as long as you can keep your mouth shut and over $100k/yr salary to start.
Forget IT support and forget programming. In both scenarios, the average best case scenario is around $80k/yr. You'd make more as a plumber, and as I understand it your question is based on finances not job satisfaction.
A lot of folks I went to school with who have B.Sc.'s are designing web pages. They can build compilers from scratch, write their own device drivers, build clusters to use distributed computing theory to compile large programs or solve complex equations, code their own load balancing and network topography protocols......and their making web pages due to lack of work. I know people who specialized in hardware, AI, human/computer interfaces, automation, and several other areas. The ONLY ones with decent jobs in the field were the ones who were studying the complex math stuff, and they're all working on cryptography and security, for about $65k. A few are going back to upgrade to get something better.
That's doesn't mean to say don't persue it if you want to do it. Just don't expect to make as much as your buddies who are welding, plumbing or framing. |
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| TrevorK |
Most computer people I know making big bucks either do work that requires creativity (Web design, etc..) or are in management.
I've yet to meet many programmers that what I would consider fair money for their level of intelligence.
I don't know what your end goal is - however I would strongly advise actually talking to people in the field. You seem very confident that what you will be doing will pay huge bucks, and I can tell you from experience that most people in IT that do actual work (Admin's, Tech's, etc...) don't roll in the dough. Some of the most intelligent Admin's that I know don't make the money an engineer does, yet have the same 4 years of schooling. |
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| Cobra_R |
| Purely security. I love knowing how to break into computer systems/ |
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| n0c7 |
There seems to be too many people in IT related fields, and more and more joining every year. I would skip any thoughts of University unless you know exactly what you want. I've worked and currently work with people with all their fancy degrees, I took CNA in the early 00's and I'm making just as much as them. Don't expect to get rich quick in this field, you will gradually move up like everyone else if you're any good at what you do. Expect to hop jobs a few times to settle in somewhere.
Oh, and, definitely listen to dtjohnst and TrevorK, they both know what they're talking about. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_R
Purely security. I love knowing how to break into computer systems/
Go study math.
www.cse.dnd.ca
Canada's version of the NSA. If I had've finished my Comp Sci degree, I was going to either take a Masters in cryptography or go back and get a Bachelor in Math and go work for them.
$100k/yr+ after you chalk up a few years experience, lots of nice perks, and you get to nothing but either crack ciphers, program/admin Echelon-type programs, or try to hack into government networks to verify and analyse their security.
Only downside: lots of math. Which is great if you love math, which I do, but you need a minimum of 2 B.Sc.'s or 1 M.Sc, so you're looking at a minimum of 6 years in University. But it's a security experts dream come true.
Be prepared though: for their entrance exam as a network admin or security analyst (aka hacker), you'll need to be able to do things like describe in painfully accurate detail stuff like Kerberos and NTLM authentication models, TCP/IP protocol specifications and the OSI model, as well as answer questions on calculus and discrete math. For cryptographer be prepared to solve complex math equations and go through a lot of long-answer and math related questions on set theory, algorithmics and graph theory including networks and the Euler models.
But damn would that ever be the perfect job. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_R
Purely security. I love knowing how to break into computer systems/
You have a very slim chance of becoming the "hacker" you envision with your CNA from NAIT. The CNA is to prepare you to learn how to administer a network, however you will soon find out upon graduating that very few grads get a chance to "administer" a network within the first few years (Creating Active Directory accounts is not administering a network).
I would follow Darren's suggestion and look more towards the Math side of things in the University education area. This education will allow you to get into the complexities that are required to enter into the field. With a strong background in math and computing, you will then be able to shift into fields that use this (AI, Robotics, Cryptography, etc...).
I would strongly advise you seek out CNA grads and find out what they really do. I work with several, none of which come close to "administering a network". This may help you decide if CNA is really for you and your career goals. |
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| Cobra_R |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
You have a very slim chance of becoming the "hacker" you envision with your CNA from NAIT.
It was because of my highschool marks that I had to get into CNA. CNA is the door to the computer industry. I was struggling for 4 years (grade 9-12) to get anywhere close to a computer related career path. Math is not my strong point. passed math 30 applied with 53 percent. plus I hate it. |
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| Ayeso |
| IF math is not your strong point then chances are computers are a slim bet for you, especially money wise. I have my degree in computer science, and it is nothing what I had originally dreamed of when I was 17. I hate programming, and most jobs pay very little compared to other trades and such. I make about 60k a year... but thats not too amazing with 4 years of college and 3 of experience... Math is very much needed with computers, unless you plan to work as tech support or perhaps a desktop rollout position. Even in networking math is very crucial =) |
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| baker_jeff |
| I started off doing tech support for 28K a year, moved on to RMA at MemX for 30K. Nothing complicated or special really, but I'm gaining all the experience and knowledge I want, until I can decide what I really want to do when I grow up. :) |
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| Z3r03rr0r |
| I know that there was a bunch of CNAs at dell doing phone support making 32-35k a year if that helps you with what you are likely looking at coming out of the course |
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| EK9Hatch |
I was going to get into this feild, but after launching my nunchuck crafting business back in 2006, I haven't looked back.
Jamie |
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| RiceKing |
I took the Microcomputer / IT program at Grant MacEwan (now dead because of low enrollment) in the late 90's then found work in junior level helpdesk support / network bitch in an office. The pay wasn't great... ~ $15 /hr in 1999 money and no benefits for the 1st year even though I was part of a union! At the same time I was working part-time at Safeway on the w/e and getting $16.24 hr there!
Maybe you can use UofA's salary scale as a guide, a lot of IT staff there work a 35 hour work week:
http://www.hrs.ualberta.ca/docs/Salaries/2007/35.pdf
I've seen real junior support guys at pay grade 5, step 1. But most average around pay grade 7 and 8. LAN Admins usually are pay grade 9.
You will have a hard time with that mortgage on a $275K (new average?) condo in Edmonton on this salary so make sure your spouse makes a decent living. Money wise and stress wise, if I had to do it over again I wouldn't have choosen this field. I'm just glad I didn't end up work for a call centre.
I think to get ahead you have to do something on the side like invest in property...
Rice |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by RiceKing
Maybe you can use UofA's salary scale as a guide, a lot of IT staff there work a 35 hour work week:
http://www.hrs.ualberta.ca/docs/Salaries/2007/35.pdf
I've seen real junior support guys at pay grade 5, step 1. But most average around pay grade 7 and 8. LAN Admins usually are pay grade 9.
Wow, we sure have it good here at NAIT. Our scale works the same way, but our starting wages for entry level helpdesk are almost $50K/year now.
Our network guys start in salary almost where you guys top out - it's amazing the disparity among our two schools. |
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| JeepGirl |
I have 20 years worth of intimate dealings with systems, mostly my own. Hardware (making it go) is my thing. I have more Cert's than I can shake a stick at:
CNA - Network learning Masters <--what a joke!
MCSE- again a joke.
Novell
A+ - of course, duh!
Linux - I still suck at it because I'm a gamer.... Games on work good on windows... NOT Linux (cedega and wine don't count! )
And a bunch of other useless certifications I've done over the years, none of them good for anything because I never went to Uni.
Listen to Trevor and that other guy, get into the maths!
I would have done the same thing if I didn't have such a mental block towards math.
I'm what they call a "Freelance I.T. Consultant" which really means "I build and maintain computers for my friends friends friends and all their families and friends"
Why aren't I working in some good job making big bank you ask? Because I have trouble with math and I never went to Uni. Sure I could go work in some support center, but I'd much rather not.
I'm going to open my very own Internet Cafe/repairs and sales shop in some resort mountain town in BC instead.I like mom and pop shops, I always have, so I'm going to open one of my very own. I know enough math to be able to manage my own business, I have done it before and have been moderately successful and in another couple of years we will have the capitol.
I also know someone, very close friend of mine actually, that has his own freelance thing setup, but he had more work than he could handle on his own so he merged with another company to take off some of the stress. It took him 2 years to get everything up and running properly, but he makes a kickass living and he does it from home (as well as mobile tech support)
So yeah, go get some post secondary math happening because there is no way in hell anyone is going to make enough money to live on in this city with just a CNA, most places that are hiring won't even talk to you unless you hold at least a bachelor's degree in something and at least 5 years documented in the field you are applying in.
When I went to college I flew through everything, it was super easy because I already knew most of what they were teaching. What I didn't know till I got there was how much more training and certifications I would need to even get my foot in the door, I had missed the boom....
If I were to go and get myself a job right now (I don't work other than for myself right now and have done so for years) I would like to go work doing sales or building systems in a place like mem xpress or any other smallish shop. Even with my CNA CCNP CNP MCSE MCSA, Novell and other cert's... I found that networking is hugely boring, not nearly as rewarding as I had once thought.
Want to make the big bucks with computers, go to University, PERIOD. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by JeepGirl
blah blah blah
If I were to go and get myself a job right now (I don't work other than for myself right now and have done so for years) I would like to go work doing sales or building systems in a place like mem xpress or any other smallish shop. Even with my CNA CCNP CNP MCSE MCSA, Novell and other cert's... I found that networking is hugely boring, not nearly as rewarding as I had once thought.
Want to make the big bucks with computers, go to University, PERIOD.
You have a CCNP? Seriously? No bullshit? One of the hardest, most expensive certifications in the industry useful only to someone who specializes in cisco routing/network equipment, 100% command line oriented? And yet you aren't good with Linux and don't work in the industry?
Something smells kinda funny there. If you have a CCNP, you love Linux. If you don't love Linux, you'd never get through a CCNP. Not to mention the certs you've listed would cost more than a B.Sc. in Comp Sci.
With the certs you listed, you WOULD command the type of salary this guy is asking about. I'm assuming, of course, that if you have a CCNP, an CCNA, an MCSE and an MCSA, that you also have the basic + certs beyond A+ (Network+, Security+, etc), which makes you MORE qualified than people writing books for microsoft.
With all that, you'd easily pull in $80k/yr base. Which means you wouldn't be saying it pays squat. With all those, you could easily get a diploma from a college with 2 or 3 courses.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. You have more certs than the managers in my shop, which means you WOULDN'T be working on support desk, and given the certs you just claimed you had, you'd know that. |
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| RiceKing |
Also, a lot of vendor certs expire where as a degree or diploma (from a real post secondary school) do not.
I don't know about these 16 week MCSE/A+ boot camps everyone used to offer a few year back... It didn't seem you even needed a high school diploma to get in.
I have (had) my CNA for Novell 4.1 but I don't remember anything or even remember what CNA stands for! My MCSE stuff is from the NT4 track and I never finished my electives. I got discouraged because I failed the TCP/IP exam twice! :D
I'm not even sure my A+ is valid anymore... I wrote it in 1999.
Rice |
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| JeepGirl |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
You have a CCNP? Seriously? No bullshit? One of the hardest, most expensive certifications in the industry useful only to someone who specializes in cisco routing/network equipment, 100% command line oriented? And yet you aren't good with Linux and don't work in the industry?
Something smells kinda funny there. If you have a CCNP, you love Linux. If you don't love Linux, you'd never get through a CCNP. Not to mention the certs you've listed would cost more than a B.Sc. in Comp Sci.
With the certs you listed, you WOULD command the type of salary this guy is asking about. I'm assuming, of course, that if you have a CCNP, an CCNA, an MCSE and an MCSA, that you also have the basic + certs beyond A+ (Network+, Security+, etc), which makes you MORE qualified than people writing books for microsoft.
With all that, you'd easily pull in $80k/yr base. Which means you wouldn't be saying it pays squat. With all those, you could easily get a diploma from a college with 2 or 3 courses.
I'm calling bullshit on this one. You have more certs than the managers in my shop, which means you WOULDN'T be working on support desk, and given the certs you just claimed you had, you'd know that.
Yes I have the cert, but I lack the training. The program I went through to get my certs was a 2 year program condensed down to 5 months which included ALL those certifications, problem is the instructors werent around 3/4 of the time to do actual training. I flubbed my way through it along with all my classmates. None of us knew what we were actually doing but they gave all of us our certifications anyway. It was a huge joke.
I never said "I love Linux and I want to have Torvalds baby" I prefer it for security. Oh... linux isn't as commandline-centric as it used to be... something about ease of use for joe blow computer user who knows nothing of commands and just wants his "puter" to go...
And I never once said I work support desk, I said I work from home, I'm bi-polar (no really! I'm not perfect) and I really don't like people very much, hence why I work from home. I don't play well with others... No $80k/yr for me, but really, it's not like I care. I'm happier working from home as well as being a housewife, eventually I will open my own small shop, just not here. Someplace where there is an actual NEED for a shop. I thought I wanted to get out there and make oodles of cash, I was in the middle of an upswing (bi-polar thing) and feeling invincible at the time.
I'm the one that wasted my time going to school to get the training, I didn't get the training yet I still have the certs, a whole huge stack of certs, which are basically meaningless because:
a) I really didn't learn anything because the training wasn't there, out of the 9 people in my class 4 dropped out and got their money back, the rest of us didn't have that option because we were there on Govt grants and scholarships.
b) The training they were doing was for NT4/2K/98, not for XP. They were on the cusp of changing over their program to reflect the change in OS of choice for most corporations... which was XP. So my class was the last one to get NT4/2K/98 training. So basically I was being trained on almost dead tech.
c) the CCNA (not CCNP my bad stupid acronyms) course was brand new at the time, the material was all new to the instructors so they were choking on it, thereby making it hard for anyone to learn anything, especially when the instructor has to take off to the A+ instructors office 20 times a day because he was the only one that actually knew the material. Nevermind the fact of the server room shutting down 5-6 times daily due to overheating (tiny overfull server room in the west facing room in a glass tower with next to no air conditioning) bring the classes on the whole floor to a grinding halt everytime. And the lab had old equipment which they were trying to run the class on while trying to teach new WiFi, needless to say there were hardware issues all the time. Cisco is hard stuff to learn when the instructors havent a clue and the lab keeps falling apart at the seems. I had the textbooks in the exams with me so I just used them to zoom through it. as did everyone else, which was a grand total of five of us...
d) I though networking would be fun and I would make lots of money.... I was WRONG. Networking is boring and thankless. Even if I knew what I was doing and had received the proper training from a good caring instructor (she was more interested in gossip than instruction) I would still only be able to land a support desk roll due to lack of any real world experience.
I know computers, I've just never worked in the field, other than my home freelance thing, so I have nothing on my resume. I've spent ALOT of time alone with my computers, Bi-polar makes being around others hard, people confuse me, computers do not. I have all this information from these courses running through my head, sometimes I can recall it all with ease, other times everything seems to be moving so fast that I can't reliably recall all the steps required to do X thing, no focus. So yes I can in fact have all these certs and NOT be making $80k/year. At least at home I don't have to answer to anyone, I am the boss, if I screw up or I'm having a "bad day" I can just not answer the phone or turn my sign over to "Closed" on my door. So call BS all you want, I Don't Care. :p
I should have gone to NAIT. Going to this other place was a huge clusterfuck. They even let us bring our textbooks into ALL the electronic exams. Which I know is not allowed on alot of the exams.
Am I bitter? :lol:
I've come to look at it this way. It only cost me lunches and gas money and it got me out of the house for a few months, it was a boost for my self esteem at first, till I realized what a joke the school I chose was.
The place I got this training from has now scaled back their services to CSR, A+ and help desk training.... I wonder why...
I still stand by my statement of getting some post secondary maths. These days you need more than a couple of certifications to even get you're resume looked at. And make sure you research the places you're looking at to go for training, lots of them will try and pump you up on their program "Rah Rah Rah, We are the 1337357 school around!!" when in reality alot of the smaller private schools suffer from terrible mismanagement. I bought into the hype like a fool and yeah... here I am.
It's ok though, I'm happy. I have lots of time for my house, my family (pets included), my cars and my computers. (notice computers comes in last?)
In reply to RiceKing: all my certs have expired by now as well I think, I would have to dig them out to know for sure. I had considered going to University for a degree but the math scares me :blink: That and to many damn people go to university... which is why I chose instead to go to a smaller private college, my class only had 9 people in it! They also told me that there would be 2 instructors per class, so I thought "right on, more one on one time if I get stuck" Nope, one instructor quit before the semester started and the other one spent most of her time in the smoking area, HR directors office or in the coffee room. 80% of the time our class was left alone.
Yeah, I guess I am still a little sore about it all. That's ok, I have the power of the internet to provide me with ALL the answers to my tech related questions and the time to go looking for it all. |
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| WorkInProgress |
Shut the fuck up.
SUSPENDED |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
You have a CCNP? Seriously? No bullshit? One of the hardest, most expensive certifications in the industry useful only to someone who specializes in cisco routing/network equipment, 100% command line oriented?
CCNP is just above CCNA (which is a laughable certificate program). You're thinking of the CCIE program.
Bottom line is that certifications don't get you money, experience does. The certifications might get you close to the good experience, but it's not exactly a shortcut. It takes years of shitty jobs to get where you want in computers. "Networking", as you call it, is likely a LOT different than what you've encountered in junior positions. |
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| DoubleDown |
quote:
Originally posted by WorkInProgress
Shut the fuck up.
Is this high school? Next time stop reading and go to another forum. |
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| JeepGirl |
quote:
Originally posted by WorkInProgress
Shut the fuck up.
Well thank you for gracing us with yet another well thought out intelligent post WIP.
:asshole:
:drama: |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by DoubleDown
CCNP is just above CCNA (which is a laughable certificate program). You're thinking of the CCIE program.
Bottom line is that certifications don't get you money, experience does. The certifications might get you close to the good experience, but it's not exactly a shortcut. It takes years of shitty jobs to get where you want in computers. "Networking", as you call it, is likely a LOT different than what you've encountered in junior positions.
I know CCIE's (making over $100k/yr I might add), and they say the CCNP was WAY harder. Once you pass the CCNP, the CCIE is a joke, so I hear.
My best friend co-owns an IT business in the states. My "junior positions" even include working on networking clusters in a University lab. I know a little bit about the industry, and I know a CCNP, MCSE, Net+, Security+, Novell and "other certs" make it easy to nail a $60k/yr job...and do you REALLY see someone spending $30k on certs and not want to be in the industry because they don't to work on a "service desk"?
I have 3 years of a computer science, 0 certifications, and 0 experience outside my university stuff...and when I applied for a job I was told "You know...we really don't think you'd fit in on a service desk, we think you'd work better in the field." So....you really think someone with all those certs would be under the impression they'd have to work on the Service Desk? Getting all that "experience" would guarantee a field position, and guarantee you'd know you would get a field position. |
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| midnite |
As an Alumni of the CNA program, I will say that you will be hard pressed to find anything much better than basic tech support to start with after school.. prob starting 30-35k a year. Hopefully you can find something where you deal with internal employees because dealing with the general public for tech support really sucks and there isn't a lot of options (ie shaw, telus).
Without some other solid experience you won't likely be able to land a sweet network admin type job right out the gate. There are exceptions of course.
However, once you have a little experience under your belt, the certification will benefit you when applying for better positions. After a year or two you will prob be able to get a decent junior admin job in the 45k range, or something similar.
Unfortunately, I have seen a couple of my classmates a year after we graduated working at staples, esso, etc. You will have to search hard to find somewhere decent where you can actually start using your skills, or else it will be of little use.
It's a kind of you-get-what-you-pay-for course in the sense that it's a cheap 1yr certificate. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by midnite
As an Alumni of the CNA program, I will say that you will be hard pressed to find anything much better than basic tech support to start with after school.. prob starting 30-35k a year. Hopefully you can find something where you deal with internal employees because dealing with the general public for tech support really sucks and there isn't a lot of options (ie shaw, telus).
Without some other solid experience you won't likely be able to land a sweet network admin type job right out the gate. There are exceptions of course.
However, once you have a little experience under your belt, the certification will benefit you when applying for better positions. After a year or two you will prob be able to get a decent junior admin job in the 45k range, or something similar.
Unfortunately, I have seen a couple of my classmates a year after we graduated working at staples, esso, etc. You will have to search hard to find somewhere decent where you can actually start using your skills, or else it will be of little use.
It's a kind of you-get-what-you-pay-for course in the sense that it's a cheap 1yr certificate.
I just got lucky then I guess. :dunno: |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
I just got lucky then I guess. :dunno:
You're welcome. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by TrevorK
You're welcome.
Ditto. ;) Enjoy your fat grand. |
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| midnite |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
I just got lucky then I guess. :dunno:
Did you take CNA? |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by midnite
Did you take CNA?
No. I took computer science, but never finished it. I basically sent off a resume that listed no formal training and little experience and was offered a field position despite the service desk needing people to work the phones. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
Ditto. ;) Enjoy your fat grand.
I will :)
I'm just hoping the computer engineer I brought on for the servicedesk will get me another bonus. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
Since we're bitching about certs...
I'm self taught, but I took a course, well cause hte Gov was gonna pay and people said I need certs to get a career.
So i did my home work, people told me A+, MCSE would be a good place to start, so I took the course, A+ wa a joke, I missed half the course due to a funeral, and I missed the stuff I didn't know, I still aced the exams.
Then the MCSE, the MOC says one thing, the instructor says the moc is what you use for the tests, but inthe real world, the moc doesn't work, you have to do it this way instead... then the exams.. well those got pulled out of somebodies ass, cause the questions being asked, I never saw before... anywhere..
When it came time for practicum, I called the same places/people who told me it would be a good place to start, I got laughed at. They seemed suprised I actually took the course.
It was a $17,000 course for 6mo, 2 of which were practicum.
My wife took a 1yr $23,000 course from SCTI, half way through SCTI went under, they had a month off, and AOL took over... they couldn't get the proper instructors for the courses, so they had one guy who was there to teach, one piece of sftware, and they made him learn the rest as he taught it.
I got a $6/h job as a "tech" well I was doing more tech stuff when I was on practicum not being paid, then when they started to pay me, my job turned into a gloified receptionist that did some tech stuff.
My wife ended up back at a newspaper.. she did pick up a few new tricks, but nothing to get her out of her current field.
Out of both our courses maybe 5 got jobs in the field. In mine 1 lady already had the job, just took the course to prove what she knew so Suncor would pay her more, and another guy, he's on some of the Norquest ads, lucked out and got a practicum at epcor and they kept him. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
Since we're bitching about certs...
I'm self taught, but I took a course, well cause hte Gov was gonna pay and people said I need certs to get a career.
So i did my home work, people told me A+, MCSE would be a good place to start, so I took the course, A+ wa a joke, I missed half the course due to a funeral, and I missed the stuff I didn't know, I still aced the exams.
Then the MCSE, the MOC says one thing, the instructor says the moc is what you use for the tests, but inthe real world, the moc doesn't work, you have to do it this way instead... then the exams.. well those got pulled out of somebodies ass, cause the questions being asked, I never saw before... anywhere..
When it came time for practicum, I called the same places/people who told me it would be a good place to start, I got laughed at. They seemed suprised I actually took the course.
It was a $17,000 course for 6mo, 2 of which were practicum.
My wife took a 1yr $23,000 course from SCTI, half way through SCTI went under, they had a month off, and AOL took over... they couldn't get the proper instructors for the courses, so they had one guy who was there to teach, one piece of sftware, and they made him learn the rest as he taught it.
I got a $6/h job as a "tech" well I was doing more tech stuff when I was on practicum not being paid, then when they started to pay me, my job turned into a gloified receptionist that did some tech stuff.
My wife ended up back at a newspaper.. she did pick up a few new tricks, but nothing to get her out of her current field.
Out of both our courses maybe 5 got jobs in the field. In mine 1 lady already had the job, just took the course to prove what she knew so Suncor would pay her more, and another guy, he's on some of the Norquest ads, lucked out and got a practicum at epcor and they kept him.
I don't think MCSE's mean what they used to though. If your MCSE was on 2000 or 2003, you're a dime a dozen. The certs and testing is getting much harder and much more expensive, which will likely bump up the starting wage and reduce the number of people you will be competing with for jobs who have the qualifications if you get the new ones (Server 2008, Exchange 07, Vista, etc).
Personally, I don't think going the Windows route is the way to go right now, unless you're going to specialize (such as exchange). There's just too many guys out there. You need to either be REALLY good at everything, be able to prove it and be able to talk it up, or you need to be specialized. I still say screw the trending and the "experts", and go Linux/Unix. Or be even more off-the-wall, and go UX, AIX, BSD, Solaris, etc. How many people run them? Not many, but the numbers are steadily rising for Unix-based servers. AND you're instantly in a niche. The first time I was asked anything Unix-related at work it was "How do we turn off the DHCP server before this Unix box drops the whole network?" Which as anyone with Unix experience knows is 1 basic command. And I looked like a hero. The next one was restarting the Samba daemon, again 1 command and I looked like more of a hero.
I wasted $0 on Windows certs, yet I do IT support for Windows on a daily basis, and when it comes down to crunch time, I'm one of maybe 3 people in my office who knows anything Unix and the only one who really knows it to any depth. Instant job security. You're invaluable for those 1 or 2 times a month you have to deal with it. Plus with infrastructure costs climbing and licencing being such a major hassle, being able to offer support for products like Scalix instead of Exchange or OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office is just another plus on your resume.
If you're going to be like everyone else, you have to be extraordinay. If you're going to be unique, you need only be average. And the fact that no one else knows anything about it means you can bullshit your way through anything when you really have to. "The daemon is incompatible with this specific kernel, so we'll need to recombile from source using proper flags and then setup the symbolic links to target the specific application binaries we need to run." Then whent the client walks away confused you break out google and find the real solution.
This assumes, of course, a desire to work in IT. If your goal is hacking, games programming, AI work, robotics, development, etc......be ready to learn math out the wazoo. Be ready to learn how to sketch, by hand and within minutes, the graph of a third-order, multiple-variable integral. Be ready to learn the math behind how 0's and 1's are used to draw geometric shapes in memory and paint them on the screen and what algorithms are used to set the correct 1's and 0's. Be ready to learn how to calculate how long a given algorithm will take to execute once you have the chart that lays out the number of machine cycles each operation takes for the specific instruction set.
Math math math is the name of the game for the advanced stuff. The more "hardware" you want to get, the more in depth the math gets while keeping with the basics. The more "software" you want to get, the more wide-ranging the math gets and the more advanced topics you'll have to study. In either case, to work outside the IT field, you need math. To work in IT, you need to stand out in some way. I don't consider an MCSE as standing out. 80% of the guys in my office (in field services at least) have it. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
Yeah.... But I was different. I did stand out.. I was one of 20 people in Edmonton at the time taking MCSE 2000. I was in the very first course to go through.
I seem to stand out now... through quality. When I help my clients, I don't just fix it, I give them options, and if it's cheaper to replace, even if not through me, I tell them.
People have called me with easy problems, that just take time, one person I told the solution to over the phone, they asked if they should send me a cheque, I said, don't worry about it, it took 2min. They remember that, and are more willing to pay for a harder problem later. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by SilverNeonRacer
Yeah.... But I was different. I did stand out.. I was one of 20 people in Edmonton at the time taking MCSE 2000. I was in the very first course to go through.
I seem to stand out now... through quality. When I help my clients, I don't just fix it, I give them options, and if it's cheaper to replace, even if not through me, I tell them.
People have called me with easy problems, that just take time, one person I told the solution to over the phone, they asked if they should send me a cheque, I said, don't worry about it, it took 2min. They remember that, and are more willing to pay for a harder problem later.
I don't see why you were laughed at then. :dunno: |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
Me neither...... One place mainly had MCSE NT4's.. so a MCSE 2000 would have been fine...
I dunno.. I got a decent job, I don't make a whole lot... but meh... |
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| Bladeh |
Level 5 IT Tech at the local college (in real terms lowest arse position u can get), 34k a year and plenty of girls to watch in the hallways. Really boring and really no chance of upping the ladder cause I don't have the right certs. (IE: 2 year diploma in CST)
Certs I got A+, Network+, both I went and just took the exam, real easy. 1 year Networking diploma from England, worthless!
I would at least try and get a 2 year Diploma at SAIT or NAIT if I were you before trying to get in to IT, heard the course enrollments for these are pretty much dying. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Bladeh
Level 5 IT Tech at the local college (in real terms lowest arse position u can get), 34k a year and plenty of girls to watch in the hallways. Really boring and really no chance of upping the ladder cause I don't have the right certs. (IE: 2 year diploma in CST)
Certs I got A+, Network+, both I went and just took the exam, real easy. 1 year Networking diploma from England, worthless!
I would at least try and get a 2 year Diploma at SAIT or NAIT if I were you before trying to get in to IT, heard the course enrollments for these are pretty much dying.
I would highly suggest you take the opportunity you have to gain the experience in the education-IT sector and when you're ready move on to a different post-secondary institution. The UofA and NAIT pay much more than that for their entry level people (I assume Macewan does, but I don't know their payscale).
In those two institutions you shouldn't have a problem topping out at 70K in 7-10 years. |
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| RiceKing |
quote:
Originally posted by Bladeh
I would at least try and get a 2 year Diploma at SAIT or NAIT if I were you before trying to get in to IT, heard the course enrollments for these are pretty much dying.
I took the 2 year IT diploma at MacEwan (was called Microcomputer Specialist back then) but now the program is dead because of low enrollment. :dunno:
Rice |
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| Leo |
| Well I'm in the IT industry. Right now i have a job as a Systems/Networks Admin. I run all the servers(6 of them), maintain all the desktops and make sure the network runs smoothly at my office of about 200 people. I worked at shit jobs for years.. Convergis(Microsoft XP Telephone support team), Dell and Acrodex(computer/video conferencing installation). A friend of mine had an In at a company and he got me hired. I made decent money to start off with(about 40k) but i had to work out of town. Sometimes you just have to sacrifice to get where you want. From what ive seen and been told the IT industry is all about experience. Education and certs help but Experience is KEY! From what all the "oldschool" techs ive talked to say.. Back in the late 90's and early millennium the MCSE/MCSA and CCNA programs where supposedly a joke and any idiot could pass them almost. Therefore the certs where pretty much useless. Now they are starting to turn around. They have become harder and arnt given away as easily. My advice is finish that NAIT program and get the certs off of it. Youll beable to land a job more then likley but don't expect to make the big bucks right off the bat. It seems like you need AT LEAST 3 years exp to make any decent money. |
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| the_fornicator |
we have a bunch of people that graduated from NAIT working for the company I work for -about 150 people.
unless you specialize and are the cream of the crop, you're going to be an average joe and you're going to start lower than the average bear. in general, that is.
I've noticed that all management in my company have a degree and some sort of post-secondary. 99% of the NAIT grads I know make significantly less than the University grads.
The president of my company even pulled me beside after I graduated uni and said he was "concerend" because I took an extra half a semester to graduate (I was lazy and didn't want to do 5 courses a semester in my last year). You should see what he thinks about NAIT grads. But then again, he knew absolutely nothing about the IT industry (a dollars and cents kind of guy).
IMO, if you try hard enough, you can get paid as much with a CST as you can with a CS degree. Spend the 3 extra years that you're not in university (including internship) and work your ass off. the 3 years of experience will do you good. |
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