| ehos |
Just an informal question. I was thinking about how cheap it was to live in Edmonton, and how expensive it is now.
It got me to thinking, is there anything we could do? I have a place, so I guess I have the 'luxury' of thinking about this, but I would actually like to do something (really).
Why are house/apartments so much in Edmonton? Contrary to what we are being told, it's not due to labour shortage, material cost etc. It's mostly due to people wanting to protect their OWN house appreciation. That's simply it. The city is in on it as well. They could release TONS of land, but they won't because they know the backlash from falling house prices. Why would they do it? Also, the city is responsible for the impossible to get zoning permissions. The builders have a huge say in this. Despite this, the reality is this.
1) Land is plentiful (no one can argue this).
2) Would you provide labour to build your own house? So there's the labour shortage factor gone.
3) Materials are still cheap. (Quote me the increase in lumber price, it's not there...)
Would you pitch in to build your own house? Al la Habitat for Humanity. I'm sure there's enough able bodied people here (or that want houses) that would right?
And I've read up on building houses, it's not rocket surgery (as Don Cherry would say). So what's the stoppage? Permits/land.
Would it be possible to get some land, get some people together and build 10 rowhouses? or even 5? Everyone working to build them would remove the labour price. Material cost is VERY reasonable compared to how much homes are now.
Could 10 people working together make 5 houses? I've seen new house construction, it's crap. A monkey could bang up a house (really). So why can't some people that do much more complicated stuff do that as well?
Just brainstorming. Would you rather keep paying rising rents or have a chance to have a home? |
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| Wookey |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
And I've read up on building houses, it's not rocket surgery (as Don Cherry would say). So what's the stoppage? Permits/land.
Its not a matter of how hard it is to build a house. Its a matter of how hard it is to get skilled trade workers in to do all your HVAC, Plumbing, electrical, framing, roofing and everything else. All that stuff has to be up to code and if it don't pass, you gotta redo it. Those trades have a crazy shortage in people and thats one of the reasons why shit starts getting expensive. |
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| dtjohnst |
| Not to mention land isn't cheap right now either. |
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| BlackArcher101 |
| Sure I would love to help build my own house to lower costs... but you have to realize I would then have to take time off work... and in the long run, I would be losing more income than I would be saving by working on the house. |
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| dbsrt |
| I am an electrician & a welder,since 99 have had two new houses built and currently have a custom builder working on hopefully our last house.Last year i bought a new condo for a flip,made approx.80G on it.Personally i would never take time off work to do the wiring in my own house, i did however do the basements an garages,the reason being is that a contractor will quote the job based on journeyman rate then get his apprentices in to do the work(20-50% cheaper). Lumber prices are not the most of your worries,copper prices have trippled as well as drywall.Have you talked to your bank or a mortgage broker,try to get a mortgage for a self build?It does take time to get land re-zoned also for land title when you purchase from a developer or builder and don't even get me started on lawyers and their fees. |
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| shawley |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsrt
I am an electrician & a welder,since 99 have had two new houses built and currently have a custom builder working on hopefully our last house.Last year i bought a new condo for a flip,made approx.80G on it.Personally i would never take time off work to do the wiring in my own house, i did however do the basements an garages,the reason being is that a contractor will quote the job based on journeyman rate then get his apprentices in to do the work(20-50% cheaper). Lumber prices are not the most of your worries,copper prices have trippled as well as drywall.Have you talked to your bank or a mortgage broker,try to get a mortgage for a self build?It does take time to get land re-zoned also for land title when you purchase from a developer or builder and don't even get me started on lawyers and their fees.
about the journeyman and apprentices rates,
i knew a guy that is apprentice framer, and i asked him how much me made, and he just said enought, i told him i was making like $14/hr at bestbuy putting in car stereo's and he replyed "what the fuck i'm only making $9/hr framing houses"
if they have them working for that little then why not charge that little |
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| dbsrt |
| That is how a business makes money.It's part of what they call profit margin.The only difference between the two of you is that he wiil be making J-man rate and you'll still be making 14 bucks an hour,no offence. |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsrt
I am an electrician & a welder,since 99 have had two new houses built and currently have a custom builder working on hopefully our last house.Last year i bought a new condo for a flip,made approx.80G on it.Personally i would never take time off work to do the wiring in my own house,
quote:
Originally posted by BlackArcher101
Sure I would love to help build my own house to lower costs... but you have to realize I would then have to take time off work... and in the long run, I would be losing more income than I would be saving by working on the house.
If you guys are making so much, then obviously you don't need affordable housing. I think my intent was to ask people that are facing the rental/housing crunch if they would help make their own houses.
Material costs are a negligible effect on current house pricing. Same with labour. |
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| BlackArcher101 |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
If you guys are making so much, then obviously you don't need affordable housing. I think my intent was to ask people that are facing the rental/housing crunch if they would help make their own houses.
Material costs are a negligible effect on current house pricing. Same with labour.
I make enough to qualify for a $150,000 mortgage. Who said I was making so much? I still rent.
If I was making $30/hr, then taking time off work would actually be easier, since I can make payments with less time worked. However, since I'm not making that much, any time I take off to work on a house is more difficult to make up for later.
Let's take the following scenario; Take 2 weeks off to work on house, then work your job for 1 week. One person at $13/hr and another at $28/hr. Who will be better off?
Loss of wages: $1040 (13/hr) & $2240 (28/hr).
Income: $520 (13/hr) & $1120 (28/hr).
For someone to work on their own house, it would be easier if you were making more money. Bills and so forth still need to be paid during that time, and the person making $28/hr would have an easier time doing so. I don't see how someone that can barely afford housing, be able to take time off work, have no income, and still pay bills. |
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| ehos |
Nice calculations. Here's another one for you. There's 24 hours in a day.
And 48 hours on the weekends. |
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| little_one_der |
Archer, what if you factor in taking at least one weeks worth of holiday pay?
That would be a good option. Take two weeks off, work on your house, and collect you two weeks of vacation pay. Should be able to pay minimum bills with the vac pay. And cover lots of ground on an affordable house. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Nice calculations. Here's another one for you. There's 24 hours in a day.
And 48 hours on the weekends.
:S You don't sleep? |
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| jordanturbo |
what I don't get is why dont some of the larger employers provide housing to rent to their employees. or sell at cheaper prices like the military does. some of the old fab shops in the city round WWII did the same, as well as nursing where they did not go to school, but go paid to work in an apprenticeship type position in the hospital and then have food and room provided by the hospital ( then there wouldn't be 1/2 the nurse shortage there is now) And then when some of these companies are making the money that they do building these housing projects creates a capital expense.
so they can get away with lower wages, and then be able to write off the cost of housing and maintainance |
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| BlackArcher101 |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Nice calculations. Here's another one for you. There's 24 hours in a day.
And 48 hours on the weekends.
So? I calculated based on 40 hour work weeks... you know... that's the norm for full-time... what's your point? |
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| BlackArcher101 |
quote:
Originally posted by little_one_der
Archer, what if you factor in taking at least one weeks worth of holiday pay?
That would be a good option. Take two weeks off, work on your house, and collect you two weeks of vacation pay. Should be able to pay minimum bills with the vac pay. And cover lots of ground on an affordable house.
Well, the more you make, the higher your vac pay would be, making it easier to take that time off. It would work to an extent, but how much work can one person do during vacation time to make it worthwhile? |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by BlackArcher101
So? I calculated based on 40 hour work weeks... you know... that's the norm for full-time... what's your point?
My point is I don't care how many hours you work. There's more to life than just working. You know, the hours you have off work.
I put hundreds of hours into restoring my car and, oddly enough, it wasn't during work hours. Meaning it was after work. Or on the weekends.
You know, I think people call it spare time, not 100% sure, let me look it up on the internet or maybe someone on TV land will tell me what that time after work is.
Well that was a nice tangent. I'm starting to understand why people would rather just pay 500K for a house that cost 100K to build. |
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| Jojdm |
if you think building a house is that easy why don't you go ahead and put your plan in action rather than try and get group approval from people on the forum.
Just remember there are building codes, permits, inspection, land acquisition, etc etc etc.
Let see how the quality turns out, while your at it go downtown and recruit the bums off the street to build your house, anyone can do it right????, besides you can pay them with a 24pack ;) |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
My point is I don't care how many hours you work. There's more to life than just working. You know, the hours you have off work.
I put hundreds of hours into restoring my car and, oddly enough, it wasn't during work hours. Meaning it was after work. Or on the weekends.
You know, I think people call it spare time, not 100% sure, let me look it up on the internet or maybe someone on TV land will tell me what that time after work is.
Well that was a nice tangent. I'm starting to understand why people would rather just pay 500K for a house that cost 100K to build.
I don't think you'd be able to do it. Unless in your group of "friends", you had an electrician, a pipefitter, etc. My uncle demolished his house and rebuilt it from scratch (basement too) by himself with some friends. But he happened to know more tradesmen than you could shake a stick at - not a single contractor though. By the time it was done, something like 74 people had helped. It failed 2 inspections and had to have work redone.
This was back in the mid-80's when I was a kid, and he's STILL patching and fixing it from some of the things they did wrong. Ask him about it, he'll tell you it's not worth it. Plain and simple: if you're electrician is working for steak and beer on his free time, how hard do you think he'll work and how many shortcuts do you think he'll take? |
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| jordanturbo |
| our family was able to do it with our house, but my dad was a general contractor and did most of the plumbing (his family owns a bunch of plumbing outfits), my grandpa owned a construction company, and then a few uncles were finishing carpenters and one was an electrician. It was a hassle though doing this, inspectors were much more through and picky on our house than most others, even though it was better built than most, since there were no big names or projects attached to it. |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by Jojdm
if you think building a house is that easy why don't you go ahead and put your plan in action rather than try and get group approval from people on the forum.
Just remember there are building codes, permits, inspection, land acquisition, etc etc etc.
Let see how the quality turns out, while your at it go downtown and recruit the bums off the street to build your house, anyone can do it right????, besides you can pay them with a 24pack ;)
Have you walked through new construction and seen how many issues there are?
Permits and inspections are not being done properly with our recent boom in construction. Just the other day I walked through a condo that had the Roxul (Fireproof layer) fall out of the wall and wasn't replaced when it was sheetrocked in. |
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| jberger |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Well that was a nice tangent. I'm starting to understand why people would rather just pay 500K for a house that cost 100K to build.
now add land , 180000 a lot , i am almost finished building my house , its a touch more the 100k , if you are doing it your self like i am , you can do it for 120 sqf and under , if you build a very simple house, but its the land thats a killer |
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| ehos |
quote:
Originally posted by jberger
now add land , 180000 a lot , i am almost finished building my house , its a touch more the 100k , if you are doing it your self like i am , you can do it for 120 sqf and under , if you build a very simple house, but its the land thats a killer
Can you give me more details? Props by the way to you! I'm glad to hear someone is bucking the trend.
Was that 100K for all your materials, all in type cost? And what type of house (2 storey? size?)
PS The general public would consider a 180K lot a good deal now. There's no lots for that price anymore left. (Unless you wanna live in McCauly etc). |
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| JeepGirl |
My hubby and I are going to do this in the spring. Selling off the house, picking up a park model trailer and were going to dump it on his brothers acreage, the with 3 families living up there in thier own trailers... we'll all start building our homes.
His brother got the acreage for a song..., it already has power... we have electricians/plumbers/framers in the family..
It'll kinda be like a commune of upper-middle class family members all working together so we will all have ALOT more money for retirement.
:thumbup:
Park model trailers go for $10-$100k
We have a Cat/bobcat/grader/trackhoe for landscaping, so that will only cost us fuel.
All we need is septic and water...
45 minutes outside the city, wonderful views, very quiet and peaceful (not sure about having to carry around a shotgun when I go on walks but whatever... friggin bears...)
Sharing resources and labour is a smart idea.
We also have plans for green power generation (solar and Wind)
I'll keep you posted as things progress :blue: |
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| BananaBoy |
Ehos:
I think alot more people are doing this that you think. From what I here most acerages are built this way, and it's exactly what I'm intending to do in the coming years. I'm on the look out for land right now. Had a couple of good prospects but they fell though.
When I get the land, my plans is to first build a 2 car garage and shop with a loft above it. I'll be able to store tools and materials in the shop and stay up in the loft while working on the house. Then start building the house and the landscaping.
And there are all these stories about how the price of lumber is going to slump next year due to the pine bettles in BC last year. If that really dose happen, I'll buy all the wood I need (including flooring and trim) at store it at the family farm until I need it.
I have tradesmen in the family and though who they know, I can get the services I need. My brother and cousin both teach at a trades school and I will hire them for the summer.
I'll sell my house in Edmonton when I finish the acerage and use the cash to pay off my line of credit and the mortage for the land. |
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| little_one_der |
Dammit!!!! If only I could machine an entire house from billet...
I think I'm in the wrong trade. |
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| jberger |
quote:
Originally posted by ehos
Can you give me more details? Props by the way to you! I'm glad to hear someone is bucking the trend.
Was that 100K for all your materials, all in type cost? And what type of house (2 storey? size?)
PS The general public would consider a 180K lot a good deal now. There's no lots for that price anymore left. (Unless you wanna live in McCauly etc).
well i bought my land 2 years ago, so i cant really count that price as today it is alot more money.
the costly stuff was trusses,
framing labour,
cement for the basement
exterior
finshing |
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| jberger |
a friend built this house 3 years ago , i beleive it cost him 220000 with the lot, back then the lots where going for 60000, so you can add the now day lots prices to the total and that give you a rough range, labour hasnt moved to to much went up a bit , wood went down,
over all i think that it might be 5 to 10 percent more to build now verus then (not including land)
http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.a...pertyID=5873922 |
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| dbsrt |
| Is you friend a custom builder in the city? |
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| FunnyJr |
quote:
Originally posted by JeepGirl
My hubby and I are going to do this in the spring. Selling off the house, picking up a park model trailer and were going to dump it on his brothers acreage, the with 3 families living up there in thier own trailers... we'll all start building our homes.
His brother got the acreage for a song..., it already has power... we have electricians/plumbers/framers in the family..
It'll kinda be like a commune of upper-middle class family members all working together so we will all have ALOT more money for retirement.
:thumbup:
Park model trailers go for $10-$100k
We have a Cat/bobcat/grader/trackhoe for landscaping, so that will only cost us fuel.
All we need is septic and water...
45 minutes outside the city, wonderful views, very quiet and peaceful (not sure about having to carry around a shotgun when I go on walks but whatever... friggin bears...)
Sharing resources and labour is a smart idea.
We also have plans for green power generation (solar and Wind)
I'll keep you posted as things progress :blue:
Wow, sounds like 8 mile. |
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| JeepGirl |
quote:
Originally posted by FunnyJr
Wow, sounds like 8 mile.
Meh.. I'm sure it will be at first, but unlike 8mile, were not all broke ass trailer trash:asshole: thanks for coming out anyway....
This is a family project, not some trailer park lol.
Once we get started IE sell the properties in the city we should have 1.2m between us... I think thats more than enough to get the project started, and considering we are going to do most of the work in-family all those labor/materials costs mean nothing.
Lots and lots of money left over for buying toys and property in BC... you know, fun money!!
It amazes me how short sighted/narrow minded some people on this board can be. Must be an age thing.
We figure why not go for it? If you can handle living on the same land as you're friends/family, sharing the load just makes good money sense.
:dunno:
:thumbup: ehos :thumbup:
*EDIT*
Did I mention it wasn't in the city? That means no having to screw around with rush hour traffic, peace and quiet at night and during the day, no one about as far as the eye can see!!!! |
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| Jojdm |
This is for the trailer park commune:
**** Newsflash the market is flooded right now with houses for sale ***** The market is turning with real estate typically going for 50K less than list price.
I personally would wait until summer 08 for your familly to sell their properties. I myself would not be willing to downgrade to a trailer, if anything i'd be upgrading.
ps. have fun in the trailer with the colt 45's ... jk :lol: |
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| Jojdm |
is that the best you can come up with?
if it's an age thing then..... well what can I say being from Gen Y, I know I have acheived more than some baby boomers, with many more ventures in the near future.
and in your case...... I won't even begin. |
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| Jojdm |
| how ironic...... achieved :D |
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| JeepGirl |
quote:
Originally posted by Jojdm
This is for the trailer park commune:
blah blah BLAH stroke you're epeen blah BLAH BLAH
Thanks for staying on-topic:thumbup:
We don't really consider staying in a nice trailer till the place is built a downgrade... I'll be able to get some sleep at night, won't have to worry about crackheads stealing everything that isn't nailed down or listen to ricers ripping around in thier automatic shitbox's with the loudest exhaust money can buy (at Canadian Tire).... not to mention the fact that damn near no one in the city really knows what they are doing behind the wheel....
I have observed some obnoxious/dangerous/careless/thoughtless driving EVERYDAY lately in the city. People drifting across all three lanes of the yellowhead at rush hour from an approach (reported them) to people menacing others on the road...
Then there are the roads themselves... what a joke...
Oh yeah and the people... LOL... I remember five or six years ago Edmonton was an okay-ish place to live and make money.. You could ask someone for the time and not have to worry about them robbing you at needle point, Or just having them tell you to fuck off...
The cost of living in the city has gone up and the ROI is down. I don't see having to live in a nice trailer for a few months as any kinda of downgrade in the long term, I actually see it as an upgrade and I wish we could get out there much sooner. |
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