| REFLUX |
*Summary notes at the bottom*
Let's start this story chronologically: about 3 weeks ago I began the tedious journey of looking into a home theater system for the basement. With the help of a family friend who's an audiophile, I got the names of several Audiophile stores around town.
Before this review/rant begins, please note that I have absolute ZERO knowledge about home theaters and high end audio equipment. I made it clear to every store that this was ground level and at no point did I act like I knew something I didn't.
Every visit was done with an open mind & ears.
Beginning with the bad and ending with the best:
National Audio & Video
This was a fairly pleasant visit on the whole except that (as the title states) these guys are worse than used car salesmen.
After chatting about requirements & end goals, I told them honestly that I had stopped by 1 other store prior to theirs. They became interested to know which one it was and I told them, IMMEDIATELY the salesman began "informing" me of what a poor quality shop it was. But it was done under the guise of "honest, unbiased info." He began saying how he was involved with shop XYZ for so many years and how his personal expertise has no rivals, that National Audio & Video is a far superior store for both service and product selection.
Several more minutes of bragging pass by, he concludes that his store is the only one worth spending time with and that if I went with shop XYZ + associated products, I'd be getting ripped off especially when it came to after sales service.
So after wasting 30 minutes at this store, I came out with the feeling that my knowledge on audio equipment was COMPLETELY lacking and that I should put my trust and wallet with them. The terminology used was absolutely WAY over my head and it didn't seem like there was any consideration whatsoever that I may not understand WTF he's saying (even though I made a MULTITUDE of gestures and statements saying I am confused).
All in all, a small waste of time, more confused leaving than when I came in, bleh.
The Gramophone:
This was by far the worst experience of the two "bad" stores. Again my approach was similar as with National Audio & Video: "I'm new at this, this is what I'm after, do you have any recommendations? Any alternatives? Can I check it out?"
IMO, ANYONE who has worked retail or has had a commission based sales position knows that what I am saying is: "Sell me. Tell me what's good, I am interested."
After several minutes of superficial chat, the salesman asks me what other product I've looked at, again I tell him that shop ABC has been seen along with their flagship product.
AGAIN, immediately this guy tells me that I'd be wasting my money and overpaying, that he used to own shop ABC and he knows what they're lacking. He pulls out some audio magazine from Germany (written in German) and shows me all these comparison charts which mean nothing to me...especially since I don't know a single syllable of German.
He tells me that what I've seen and experienced so far is pointless and that what he can offer is superior and a better bang for the dollar.
Ok fine, so I also ask him for a recommendation on some headphones which he promptly shows me around (which is nice).
Fortunately I got a call and I had to leave but before going there was still more product to sample so I asked for a business card along with their store hours. At first it was a very pleasant surprise to hear him say that they open till 6:30PM and later for pre-booked appointments......so long as it's worth his time.
This salesman had the audacity to tell me that he wouldn't open up his shop for an extra hour if all I was going to purchase was a set of headphones!
That it wouldn't be worth his time especially since "you can't even afford the $2000 set." (that is a verbatim quote and something he ASSUMED)
BUT, but he would be more flexible if I were to spend time looking at speakers in the $10,000 range and beyond.
Are you fucking kidding me???
This is all mixed in with copious amounts of bragging about how he's been in the industry for 20 years, that they have a very loyal client base, blah blah blah.
So I promptly left The Gramophone gaining a bit of headphone exposure and an annoyed mindframe KNOWING that I will NEVER do business with a shop like that.
At this point, the professionalism of these two audio shops is absolutely NON-EXISTENT. National Audio & Video failed in constantly bashing other shops while not catering to a client who made clear his standpoint and where he was coming from.
The Gramophone went outright to insult and tell me that I'm not worth their time.
Fortunately there are two shops that I did have a good experience with:
At Audio Ark I had the pleasure to be helped by Jack. He was capable enough to introduce me to various product lines, answer my questions directly and had the patience to handle it. He was also very accommodating for the whole process and very willing to get me the information I requested.
His explanations were great too, telling me what to expect when comparing two different speaker lines, what details to listen for and look out for, used laymen's terms so I would understand the product instead of just drowning me in terminology from a textbook.
Even though I mentioned other shops to him, at no point did he criticize them. He simply compared the pros & cons of his product to other stores' product. He did not boast that he and Audio Ark are THE Definitive audio sources in town.
Very professional.
There was one point when I requested to hear a different set of speakers that he was a bit hesitant to show me but in the end he did set them up.
All in all a good experience, I would recommend him.
Lastly, Premier Audio is where I had my best experience.
Kyle is the guy I dealt with and most certainly went above and beyond my expectations of service.
Being the first shop visited, my knowledge base was at its lowest point but he took the time to personally cart in over 3 sets of 2-300lb speakers for my comparison.
Like Jack, he took the time to explain terminology, what to expect, details to compare and contrast. He took his time to listen to my questions and remarks, gave me NO sales pressure and went thru the listening procedure TWICE.
That means he hooked up 3 different sets of speakers to listen to music and then redid the entire process for a movie. All the while explaining how subwoofers, center channels, and surround speakers will change the experience between music & movie viewing (which he also hooked up & unhooked).
I was super impressed with him especially since even I wouldn't have the patience to go thru all that he did.
There were no complaints about the setup, moving speakers around, playing and replaying media, just good old solid customer service.
A wonderful experience and I would highly recommend Kyle at Premier Audio.
*Summary Notes:*
-National Audio & Video = pompous & arrogant, very knowledgeable but if you don't understand, don't expect them to explain.
Unprofessional in that they cut down other shops based off anecdotal experience and info.
-The Gramophone = arrogant braggarts, also criticizes other stores and their product. They tell you that whatever knowledge you have is completely wrong and they know best. They insult customers, LITERALLY SAYING that unless you spend $XX,XXX dollars, you aren't worth their time.
-Audio Ark = professional, objective, fair and unbiased opinions. Accommodating, patient and guides you thru the purchasing experience.
Dealt with Jack.
Recommended.
http://www.audioark.com/
-Premier Audio = also very professional, extremely patient and knowledgeable in answering questions. Very detailed in leading you thru product with easy explanations that enable you to understand what you're looking at/experiencing.
Dealt with Kyle.
Highly Recommended.
http://www.premieraudio.ca/ |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
At Audio Ark I had the pleasure to be helped by Jack. He was capable enough to introduce me to various product lines, answer my questions directly and had the patience to handle it. He was also very accommodating for the whole process and very willing to get me the information I requested.
His explanations were great too, telling me what to expect when comparing two different speaker lines, what details to listen for and look out for, used laymen's terms so I would understand the product instead of just drowning me in terminology from a textbook.
Even though I mentioned other shops to him, at no point did he criticize them. He simply compared the pros & cons of his product to other stores' product. He did not boast that he and Audio Ark are THE Definitive audio sources in town.
Very professional.
There was one point when I requested to hear a different set of speakers that he was a bit hesitant to show me but in the end he did set them up.
All in all a good experience, I would recommend him.
I'll second the recommendation for Audio Ark! :thumbup: I spent a fair bit of money there a few years ago getting my HT system off the ground. They were my source for Denon and Paradigm.
Also if you can't find Jack, Keith (if he still works there) was another extremely helpful employee at Audio Ark.
Also, if you know what you're looking for A&B Sound can be a decent place to pick up the odd component for your system. Their salesmen tend to be more knowledgeable and more willing to DEAL than their counterparts at Future Shop, Best Buy, etc. At least that's the way it used to be.. I don't know if that's changing more recently. |
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| AudiInProgress |
| All I can say is, I'm glad "International Stereo" is gone... But I wonder where all those salesment went? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
All I can say is, I'm glad "International Stereo" is gone... But I wonder where all those salesment went?
And what happened to those totally awesome Nuance speakers! :rolleyes:
Any suckers here fall for their marketing gimmick? |
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| euro777 |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
All I can say is, I'm glad "International Stereo" is gone... But I wonder where all those salesment went?
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
And what happened to those totally awesome Nuance speakers! :rolleyes:
Any suckers here fall for their marketing gimmick?
:rofl: my room mate did |
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| AudiInProgress |
Nuance speakers weren't "BAD" persay... But the $10,000 price tag on something that cost $200 to manufacture... And their shitty sales tactics... Ugh. I get angry just thinking about it. How many 18 year old kids got pressured into walking out of that store with shit. It's like you weren't allowed to leave without buying something.
"YOU CAN HAVE A HOUSEPARTY AND THROW A BEER BOTTLE THROUGH YOUR SPEAKER AND WE'LL FIX IT FOR FREE - FOR LIFE!"
Yeah... That's because the driver was manufactured in a fucking sweat shop and cost you a whole $12.00 |
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| Prudz_lude |
| Soooooo did you even buy anything? |
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| BB6SE |
It's a commission based business. I don't blame them for being the way they are cuz there's so many ppl that waste their time.
So they're just extra cautious sometimes and it may seem rude, but I'm sure u'd be like that too if you were in the business. |
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| Prudz_lude |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
It's a commission based business. I don't blame them for being the way they are cuz there's so many ppl that waste their time.
So they're just extra cautious sometimes and it may seem rude, but I'm sure u'd be like that too if you were in the business.
i disagree. I am in sales right now and i sell like #3 and #4. I have something like a 90% closesure rate at my job. Very few walk away without buying a cell phone from me and i don't even work for rogers, bell, or telus. I work for bells sister company Solo. You have to be honest, you have to take your time, and you have to listen to the customer or you are fucked and they are going to be pissed off. |
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| AudiInProgress |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
It's a commission based business. I don't blame them for being the way they are cuz there's so many ppl that waste their time.
So they're just extra cautious sometimes and it may seem rude, but I'm sure u'd be like that too if you were in the business.
I disagree as well... Treat every customer like gold, and perhaps you'll get word of mouth sales, rather than bad-mouthing. You know what they say - Everybody who has a negative experience will tell 10 friends. A good experience might be shared with 1.
You are there to serve the customer, therefore no customer is *EVER* a waste of time. If a salesman is rude, he's rude, bottom line. There's no "seeming" rude. |
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| BB6SE |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
I disagree as well... Treat every customer like gold, and perhaps you'll get word of mouth sales, rather than bad-mouthing. You know what they say - Everybody who has a negative experience will tell 10 friends. A good experience might be shared with 1.
You are there to serve the customer, therefore no customer is *EVER* a waste of time. If a salesman is rude, he's rude, bottom line. There's no "seeming" rude.
I wasn't saying it's right to be rude. I agree with you how you're there to be helpful and assist the client. But sometimes when u get booted around so much you're negative towards the next guy. Do u see what I mean?
Not everyone can be extremely nice to EVERY customer that walks through the door. |
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| BB6SE |
quote:
Originally posted by Prudz_lude
i disagree. I am in sales right now and i sell like #3 and #4. I have something like a 90% closesure rate at my job. Very few walk away without buying a cell phone from me and i don't even work for rogers, bell, or telus. I work for bells sister company Solo. You have to be honest, you have to take your time, and you have to listen to the customer or you are fucked and they are going to be pissed off.
you're comparing phone sales to car sales.
Sure you're in sales, but your showing off your closing ratio of 90% when the commitment is a couple hundred bucks when the average car is 20-30g's. I guarantee you won't have a 90% closing ratio in car sales.
and yes, u should always be honest and listen to the clients when u're in sales. |
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| 3gec |
I also would recommend Audio Ark. I have not shopped there myself however two of my friends have and they bought Paradigm speakers. Two different sets and the sound is amazing from these speakers. They told me how amazing the customer service was. We use them a lot for DJing and they can blast extremely loud and clear. I will be shopping in there in the next few months for some new speakers.
As for the Nuance speakers. My brother bought a set many years ago which are now sitting in my living room. However one has a blown driver and since there is no longer any international stereo stores around there is no where to get it fixed. Also when I contacted Nuance directly from their website I did not get a reply. |
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| shorti |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
Ok fine, so I also ask him for a recommendation on some headphones which he promptly shows me around (which is nice).
This salesman had the audacity to tell me that he wouldn't open up his shop for an extra hour if all I was going to purchase was a set of headphones!
That it wouldn't be worth his time especially since "you can't even afford the $2000 set." (that is a verbatim quote and something he ASSUMED)
If your looking for a GOOD set of headphones I hope you're not buying them at a retail store.
I bought a set of Sernnheiser HD650's off of ebay for around $300 when the retail price in Canada is above $600. And they fucking rock. |
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| Prudz_lude |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
you're comparing phone sales to car sales.
Sure you're in sales, but your showing off your closing ratio of 90% when the commitment is a couple hundred bucks when the average car is 20-30g's. I guarantee you won't have a 90% closing ratio in car sales.
and yes, u should always be honest and listen to the clients when u're in sales.
you have no clue who i am. I have worked at 3 dealerships :lol: same goes for cars. The sales men that stay sales men are the ones that are completely honest. Have you ever wondered why the turn around is so fast at a dealership? Also, when did this become about cars? The guy was talking about a home theatre, not a car.... Even if i was selling home theatre systems i would sell like 3 and 4 because guess what, that is what everyone wants.
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| Mustard |
I don't think has as much to do with commision, as it does you just ended up talking to people who LOVE what they SELL
The second two guys obviously love what they do, and have FUN hooking shit up (i know the feeling). They like stereo stuff, and probably have a lot of experience because they've been toying with it since they can remember.
The first two guys... well, the first two guys love money.
I had the same experience when i was working for a video game store (though, not on commission). I loved video games... i lived and breathed video games for YEARS, so it was easy for me to talk to people about what was cool and what wasn't... I love playing shit with people in the store to show off different games they may not see elsewhere.
So i worked at a store that let me have that kinda freedom, opening up games to try 'em out, and that sort of thing.
[rant]the store eventually had to close becuase st.albert is full of tight asses fucking LOSERS who drive their giant ass trucks 10 god damned km's wasting $15 in gas, to save $2.99 at walmart on the exact same fucking game where none of the associates even speak english, let alone know what games are decent, and which ones to avoid like the plague, and none of their fucking spoiled ass kids know the value of a dollar and just get fed countless brand new fucking horrible games when they could have easily found a fantastic used game WITH warranty for half the price...AND THEN they have the audacity to tell me i gave them bad advice when their kid ended up with a video games system that he could play his freind's borrowed GTA game on...the game that i told them NOT to buy for their kid that was busy beating up the dog while mom called WALMART right in fucking front of me in the fucking store to check their fucking "rooled-back prices"!!!
*breathe...breathe*
[/rant]
Sorry. |
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| lowryder99 |
Ahh you worked at microplay huh? Yea I miss that place...shit was SO good.
I ALWAYS came in with my girlfriend haha, id always ask the dude behind the counter what was good and he never failed me, I always ended up with a good game...and if I wasn't sure he would find a copy and let me play it...even if the game was brand new :)
I havn't bought that many games since :( |
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| shorti |
quote:
Originally posted by Prudz_lude
you have no clue who i am. I have worked at 3 dealerships :lol: same goes for cars.
Why do you sell cheap cell phones when you used to sell thousand dollar cars? Wouldn't you make more money selling cars?
quote:
The sales men that stay sales men are the ones that are completely honest.
Bullshit. There are slimey salesmen out there that have perfected their art for years.
quote:
Also, when did this become about cars? The guy was talking about a home theatre, not a car....
Even if this isn't about cars you're still comparing cheap phones to expensive audio equipment. Not much of a monetary commitment with solo phones than with home audio.
quote:
Even if i was selling home theatre systems i would sell like 3 and 4 because guess what, that is what everyone wants.
This doesn't even make sense. |
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| BB6SE |
quote:
Originally posted by Prudz_lude
you have no clue who i am. I have worked at 3 dealerships :lol: same goes for cars. The sales men that stay sales men are the ones that are completely honest. Have you ever wondered why the turn around is so fast at a dealership? Also, when did this become about cars? The guy was talking about a home theatre, not a car.... Even if i was selling home theatre systems i would sell like 3 and 4 because guess what, that is what everyone wants.
You know what.. you're right, I don't wanna argue with you.
Because I agree with you, if I was in your position and I couldn't make a living selling cars wheather they were 5g's or 30g's I would go to something like selling phones between 100-500 dollars. But I think that if you keep going the way you're going and succeed at phone sales then maybe one day you'll consider stepping it up a notch and go into home theater sales. Or maybe one day you'll come full circle and maybe go back into car sales but make sure that you don't quit the second time around. |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by shorti
If your looking for a GOOD set of headphones I hope you're not buying them at a retail store.
I bought a set of Sernnheiser HD650's off of ebay for around $300 when the retail price in Canada is above $600. And they fucking rock.
Yeah I was recommended (and tried) AKGs & Grados.
Comfort is a big point for me, especially if a set of headphones are going to be on for a good amount of time. Doesn't really matter that they sound great if I don't even want to wear them, you know?
Which is another "comment" The Gramophone made when I brought up the comfort issue...that comfort isn't important, sound quality is.
Well buddy, if my head were as numb as yours....yeah maybe but fortunately my requirements are different from yours and so my money will be going to a shop/salesman who can match my needs with an appropriate product. |
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| shorti |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
Yeah I was recommended (and tried) AKGs & Grados.
Comfort is a big point for me, especially if a set of headphones are going to be on for a good amount of time. Doesn't really matter that they sound great if I don't even want to wear them, you know?
I hear that Grados are very nice as well.
If you have a small head HD650s are comfy, but my older Senn hd575's were like wearing a pillow on my head. I could wear those all day and it was very hard to notice them. |
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| bananaboat |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
I wasn't saying it's right to be rude. I agree with you how you're there to be helpful and assist the client. But sometimes when u get booted around so much you're negative towards the next guy. Do u see what I mean?
Not everyone can be extremely nice to EVERY customer that walks through the door.
Why don't you tell us where you work so we can all avoid you and your shitty attitude? |
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| Twigs_Dee |
He's comparing phone sales to home theater sales.
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
you're comparing phone sales to car sales.
Sure you're in sales, but your showing off your closing ratio of 90% when the commitment is a couple hundred bucks when the average car is 20-30g's. I guarantee you won't have a 90% closing ratio in car sales.
and yes, u should always be honest and listen to the clients when u're in sales.
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| BB6SE |
quote:
Originally posted by Twigs_Dee
He's comparing phone sales to home theater sales.
oops my bad. |
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| BB6SE |
quote:
Originally posted by bananaboat
Why don't you tell us where you work so we can all avoid you and your shitty attitude?
why is my attitude shitty? i said that i AGREED with how you should treat a client well.
Where did i say that I was rude to clients?
Only thing i was trying to say earlier was that when sales guys get a lot of ppl that waste their time it puts them in a cautious mood.
Did you forget how to read? |
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| turbojono |
I think in sales, it's more about selling yourself than the product. Especially this day and age where anyone can research cost pricing, product comparisions, reviews etc on the internet. Hell, customers can even forgo salesmen altogether if they wanted to.
If people believe they were taken care of, their peace of mind will have them sending you repeat business left and right. For every chump unhappy with their shitty Nuance speakers, there's probably hundreds of perfectly happy people around the city braggin' about them in their living rooms. |
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| turbojono |
quote:
Originally posted by bananaboat
Why don't you tell us where you work so we can all avoid you and your shitty attitude?
He owns Fort Road Massage and Passions Spa. The guy is literally a flesh salesman! errrr! I was interested in buying one of his cars once, and he made me meet him at one of his "offices" to view it. Bulky asian dude....told me if I bought his car, I could also pick any girl I wanted to..on him. I just told him i didn't have enough cash and got the hell outta there. No joke! It was quite fucked up, but his customer service skills seemed pretty top notch, to tell you the truth. hahaha |
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| TrevorK |
quote:
Originally posted by turbojono
He owns Fort Road Massage and Passions Spa. The guy is literally a flesh salesman! errrr! I was interested in buying one of his cars once, and he made me meet him at one of his "offices" to view it. Bulky asian dude....told me if I bought his car, I could also pick any girl I wanted to..on him. I just told him i didn't have enough cash and got the hell outta there. No joke! It was quite fucked up, but his customer service skills seemed pretty top notch, to tell you the truth. hahaha
Boy, did I get ripped off. I bought a car off of him and didn't even get that kind of offer. I guess I should have haggled him better? :lol: |
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| Nissan Fanboy |
The Gramophone is ok if you want to buy Grado headphones locally they are ok price wise (since Grado don't really do discounts on their phones). I think the guy there (Bryan) is a douchebag though.
I'm an audiophile. For headphones you can spend a lot of $$$ if you buy retail. I always try to eBay it or buying used off of a forum like Head-fi.
My best deal I've gotten was a mint pair (20hrs, not even broken in) set of AKG K701s for $200. Normally those would run you $400 retail on the web and something like $600 at a place like Gramophone. |
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| REFLUX |
quote:
Originally posted by Nissan Fanboy
I think the guy there (Bryan) is a douchebag though.
This is exactly who I dealt with. |
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| Mustard |
quote:
Originally posted by lowryder99
Ahh you worked at microplay huh? Yea I miss that place...shit was SO good.
I ALWAYS came in with my girlfriend haha, id always ask the dude behind the counter what was good and he never failed me, I always ended up with a good game...and if I wasn't sure he would find a copy and let me play it...even if the game was brand new :)
I havn't bought that many games since :(
thanx man, glad to hear someone appreciated it.
I was probably "that dude," btw....
unless it was a big black guy, in that case it was Jay...and i was not that dude.
I havn't played much since either (in comparison, of course).... I just can't bring myself to whore myself out to the corporate masses :( |
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| Godzilla |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
you're comparing phone sales to car sales.
Sure you're in sales, but your showing off your closing ratio of 90% when the commitment is a couple hundred bucks when the average car is 20-30g's. I guarantee you won't have a 90% closing ratio in car sales.
and yes, u should always be honest and listen to the clients when u're in sales.
you want to talk car sales? i sell cars p/t and broker vehicles that people want. when people are looking for a car that i don't have in stock its about a 1/10 chance that that i make a sale off of them (i'm not the greatest salesmen). I don't weed out the 9/10 as though they are wasting my time. I treat every customer the same way because if i make one sale out of ten thats about $1000. by that logic i make $100 off of every customer i help wether they buy a car off of me or not. not to mention that the customers i treat well and dont buy cars off of me have recomended me to others who have bought cars off of me. you've got the wrong mindframe behind commision based sales imo. |
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| REFLUX |
| I believe BB6SE works at a dealership ;) |
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| Spoonin |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
I believe BB6SE works at a dealership ;)
he used to Terry no anymore tho......im not sure what he is doing these days...last time i seen him was in the summer |
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| bananaboat |
quote:
Originally posted by BB6SE
why is my attitude shitty? i said that i AGREED with how you should treat a client well.
Where did i say that I was rude to clients?
Only thing i was trying to say earlier was that when sales guys get a lot of ppl that waste their time it puts them in a cautious mood.
Did you forget how to read?
Way to sidestep the question bitch. If you're so proud of your sales skill, then why don't you back it up by telling us where you work?
Oh wait, someone else already called you out on being skeezy flesh salesman. Nice. |
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| turbojono |
quote:
Originally posted by bananaboat
Way to sidestep the question bitch. If you're so proud of your sales skill, then why don't you back it up by telling us where you work?
Oh wait, someone else already called you out on being skeezy flesh salesman. Nice.
hahaha Hey man, leave me outta this. I wasn't calling him out on anything but that was just what happened. You wanted to know where he worked so I just thought I'd mention my experience with him. |
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| BB6SE |
Reflux: I apologize for cluttering your thread.
My main point was to pretty much say that I can see why some sales guys seem rude. Doesn't mean I would treat ppl that way or that ppl should be treated that way. I'm just biased cuz I used to be in sales and it's stressing at times with certain clients out there. |
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| REFLUX |
Eh no worries, let's try to keep it on topic then?
:thumbup: |
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| Mustard |
quote:
Originally posted by REFLUX
Eh no worries, let's try to keep it on topic then?
:thumbup:
umm, What's off topic?
...the title of the thread is "Whats worse than a used car salesman? Home Theater/Hi-Fi salesmen."
The car salesmen are just arguing to try and to their title as being the worst.
easy on the censorship button there chief ;) |
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| Spoonin |
quote:
Originally posted by bananaboat
Way to sidestep the question bitch. If you're so proud of your sales skill, then why don't you back it up by telling us where you work?
Oh wait, someone else already called you out on being skeezy flesh salesman. Nice.
wow Jeff is that all you do with ur time man....sit on ur computer and try to start shit with ppl? |
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| AudiInProgress |
| BB6SE still works at a dealership, far as I know. |
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