| Too much cardio? - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| s2oooR |
I just bladed from 149st to Rundle park and back and yesterday I went from Rundle park to 149st and back.......my legs feel alittle sore but not so sore that i wont be able to do it again tommorow if i wanted to......but i also feel like im getting thinner? anyways, im still working out with weights regularly but they dont seem to have as much effect as it used to.
Anyways, i figure that i may be doing too much cardio? and not taking enough carbs and protein to maintain my weight? .....is there any other possiblilities?
What can i do to maintain or gain more muscle mass without giving up cardio because its way more fun to blade than to lift weights..... :P |
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| TheNeonEdge |
Eat lots.... i suggest olive garden and edo japan's sukiyaki beef.
--ThE EdGe |
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| Insomniac |
Nah man, East Side Mario's chicken and ribs or 1/2 rotissery chicken :P
Supposedly if you do lots of cardio without eating much, you will lose muscle. Just think of b. builders in the bulking phase. They eat lots.
Off topic:
I saw the freakiest chick yesterday at the gym. The 3 of us came to the conclusion that she was 5'5", 185-190lbs, maybe 12% body fat. She was huge! Caught her doing dumbell shoulder press' with 45 in each arm. No sweat. Face looked like that of a man. I was scared. :tear: |
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| badger |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac@Jul 15 2003, 07:23 AM
Supposedly if you do lots of cardio without eating much, you will lose muscle.
Not not "supposedly" it's absolutely true. It's common sense too:
food = fuel (source of energy)
excess food = storage
so,
Doing CV work without food means that your body needs to draw its fuel from some source, where? your storage, hence that is the principle behind weight lose, and furthermore, muscle depletion (but that is excessive and highly unlikely unless your are an endurance athelete or anorexic). |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
This definately depends more so on diet than duration/amount of the CV exercise. Do not shy away from CV work because of fear of lossing muscle. Only excessive amounts of cardio would cause you to lose muscle. Extreme amounts of aerobic work, such as the type of training done by competitive endurance athletes, could be considered over-training, as already said above
Muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during CV exercise. However, you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover." Your body is constantly alternating back and forth between anabolic (building) and catabolic (breaking down) cycles, that is what metabolism is, normal part of life!!
Your goal is simply to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side uh, make sense?
Lets think about it, sigh this will take awhile now:
Losing muscle has more to do with inadequate diet than with excessive CV. You seem to be on the right track thinkin about :
1. Not eating enough protein. Protein is the only nutrient that can be used to build muscle. To stay on the anabolic side you must lots o' protein!
Quote: "Research has proven that if you are physically active, you need a minimum of .8 grams to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. Bodybuilders may need even more."
2. Carbohydrates are too low. Low carb diets are often used for fat loss, but it is a mistake to cut your carbs too drastically. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, so even if you are eating large amounts of protein, you can still lose muscle if your carbs are too low. When you start to exercise CV'lly, you need to draw energy up somewhere, if it's not carbs, it'll be from fats. This will hinder you muscle mass growth, and coupled with the lack or insufficient protein, muscle will deplete. So carbs act as what I like to call an "inhibitor" for lack of a better word, allowing you to do the CV you enjoy without worry of uhh..drainage.
3. NOW, the most probable cause of muscle loss. You are not eating enough calories to support muscle growth. When your calories are too low, your body goes into "starvation mode" or as I call it "survival mode". Your metabolism slows down and your body actually burns muscle tissue to conserve energy. Muscle is metabolically active tissue, requiring a great deal of caloric energy just to maintain it. That's why your body will shed muscle if it thinks you are starving hence, that why anorexics harm themselves so much, in oh so many ways.
You need more calories to gain weight and mass with just weightlifting, by doing extra/excessive cardio you are increasing the number of calories needed by the body, since you'll be burning off more - ya need to eat and increase caloric intake
2 steps forward and 3 steps back
The only way to maintain your lean mass while losing fat is to feed the muscles with plenty of protein and nutritious calories while at the same time, burning the fat off with lots of cardio, if the case is that you are fat, for those tubbies out there.
Cardio work is excellent for muscle growth as it increases the oxygen levels in your blood pumped to your muscles (aerobicicity).
Just to hammer this point away one more time:
CARDIOVASCULAR ACTIVITIES WILL NOT CAUSE MUSCLE LOSS. In fact, it supports the pathways that help you build muscle.
I hope that helps!! That took a long time to write, and while I am no nutritionist or personal trainer, I'm just using my own reasoning, and backround knowledge. hence - DISCLIAMER |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
| Oh yeah, I could have just told you the 3 things about, but what fun is that? Besides, with reasoning, you won't dismiss what I have to say more readily! |
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| s2oooR |
thanks guys....!
Nikki, It sure sounds like u know what your talking about....maybe u SHOULD be a personal trainer or a nutritionist? lol
Ok, i dont think im starving myself, far from it......I find myslef hungry all the time now! like i mean i'll be munching on something at least every hour and a half! lol.....
Anyways, i figure that if your body needs the "fuel/carbs/protein" it'll let u know by telling you your hungry, no? All u have to do is make sure you dont ignore that and grab something to eat, right?
I say that but i still seem to be losing weight lol....go figure.... :wacko: ...let me go weigh myself right now and let me see what i am right now lol.. ok scratch that last comment, im within 3lbs of what i was before.....lol....i ate lots in the past 24hrs....lol |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
quote:
Originally posted by s2oooR@Jul 15 2003, 03:15 PM
Nikki, It sure sounds like u know what your talking about....maybe u SHOULD be a personal trainer or a nutritionist? lol
Yeah, lol, that would be quite the sight. A 5'0, 88lbs girl telling some beefcake how to properly eat and workout. I don't think that would sell all too well!! |
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| CYA |
| it's good to see some useful info being posted. :) |
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| s2oooR |
quote:
Originally posted by Miss Nikki Sixx@Jul 16 2003, 06:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by s2oooR@Jul 15 2003, 03:15 PM
Nikki, It sure sounds like u know what your talking about....maybe u SHOULD be a personal trainer or a nutritionist? lol
Yeah, lol, that would be quite the sight. A 5'0, 88lbs girl telling some beefcake how to properly eat and workout. I don't think that would sell all too well!!
maybe u should take some of your own advice and put down those calories and carbs and proteins :P lol
hey, i thoguht u were a guy? .....i remember u trying to sell some mags before and i coulda sworn u were a guy?
Anyways, thanks for the advice! |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
I thought the "Miss" would be the dead give away, I guess not! :P
As for my own advice, I'm "cursed" with very good metabolism. I eat often and am unfortunately seditary now, but just can't put on a single pound! |
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| s2oooR |
Weird, i coulda sworn it was your bf or someone that was selling those wheels/mags? anyways, i musta been talking to you then? Sorry for thinking your a guy :P lol
Well, your not the only one "cursed" with great metabolism.....u should see what i eat.....lol....but then again i do DO alota cardio stuff and do weights 3 times a week? not for very long though, 30min only. |
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| mazda929s_urbanImports |
| yes there is such a thing as 2 much cardio after 1/2 an hour of cardio your body has use up all of the "energy" that it has somwhat stored for your rregular activities. so after that 1/2 hour is done you can go a bout a hour befoure the effectivness of the cardio starts to deminish, i always do my hour of strength ttraining before my cardio so that way i cdan do abotu 45 min and then i am done. |
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| s2oooR |
| so whats this? the most cardio u should be doing is 30min? :wacko: |
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| mazda929s_urbanImports |
| no the most that i woulkd recomend doing is about 45 mion to an hour after that it is just a waste of time, but tht thing is you have to go hard. |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
| care to elaborate a bit more mazda929s_urbanImports? |
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| mazda929s_urbanImports |
| as i said before, your body only store about a half hour of " energy " for extream activity, so after that half hour you body starts to burn fat as an energy source. your body does this for about an hour at top efficiency, after that your body will lose its effiency to burn the fat. so in reality there is no reason to do cardio more then an hour, unless youi do it before you do weights the you could do it for about an hour and a half. but that is all i relly know on the subject. but also the thing is the more you do cardio the more stuff that you are going to need to take in order to help your body recover, for example if ytou are going to do serious " workouts " you should have about on gram of protein to every pound tat you weigh, and you should also take glutamine, because for one it is something that your body makes its self but also your body cant keep up with its consumption and that is why some people start to get really sore. but like i said that is all i relly know. |
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| JustinL |
Ok first things first. The hormone cortisol is thought to be the main catabolic hormone that degrades protein from aerobic training. If you are training hard, you are producing more cortisol and this is tipping the balance from anabolic to catabolic. So yes if you are training really hard aerobically, it will be much more difficult to put on muscle mass, because of energy requirements, and mostly because of you r little friend cortisol.
I'm sorry mazda929, but most of what you said is wrong. I don't really want to get into an excercise physiology lesson... unless you really want me to. But the fuel you are burning is directly related to the intensity, not duration. The higher the intensity, the more you shift toward carbohydrate consumption. Lower intensity is fat consumption. Glutamine has been shown to have little effect on bolstering the immune system (which was why people were taking it)... and your muscles get sore from microscopic tears. Stretching after a workout has been shown to help.
I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to correct some basic principles.
Justin |
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| Miss Nikki Sixx |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL@Aug 12 2003, 12:53 PM
I'm sorry mazda929, but most of what you said is wrong.
I'm not trying to be an ass, just trying to correct some basic principles.
haha, I'm glad you said it, cause I just didn't have the guts.
Mazda929, you are unbelievably WRONG |
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| s2oooR |
| so dont work out as hard to burn fat? ....and work out harder if u wanna burn carbs? and if u wanna put on muscle, its better to workout anaerobically?...at least tahts what justin said... correct me if im wrong... :wacko: |
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| JustinL |
Absolutely right S200R. But the fuel you are burning is not nearly as important as how many calories you burn. You could walk for 6 hours and only burn 10% of the calories (almost all fat) that you would burn in a one hour higher intensity excercise (fat and carbs). And yes all weightlifting should be anaerobic, and for maximum results in terms of muscle mass, you should stay away from high volumes of cardio.
Justin |
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| s2oooR |
this maybe a stupid question but what's anaerobic again? From my understanding, it's when your muscles are deprived of oxygen and your muscles recieve less ATP (2 i think, vs 36 in aerobic).....now my question is.....how do u get to that state of anaerobic respiration? :blink: ....do u just get yourself really tired at first and THEN do your work out or do u just hold your breath when u work out? lol ^_^
.......so how much faster do u think you'll see results vs. doing your workouts aerobically?
...and i suppose when u say to refrain from doing high vol. of cardio, u mean high intensity cardio? I figure if u do very light cardio, you'll burn off fat (like u said), which in turn will make u look leaner (well, u WILL BE leaner). If that's the case, how much of "light" cardio do u suggest?
Thanks again :) |
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| JustinL |
Anaerobic does mean "without oxygen". You never completely shut off an energy system either, so you are always using your aerobic system a little bit. When you lift weights, you are burning the ATP-CP system which stores ATP inside your muscles. you don't need oxygen to use this system hence it is an anaerobic system. You do use oxygen to replentish your ATP however. (CP incidently is creatine phosphate... but thats a whole different thread)
To get to steady state aerobic it takes about three minutes, so you would have to be doing reps for three minutes before your muscles would start to work aerobically... These are also your type 1 muscle fibres, which aren't as strong and don't grow as much, but can work for a long time. Most weightlifters goal is to work the type 2 fibres which are more anaerobic in nature and see the greatest growth.
Absolutely right on with the cardio. high intensity interval training will seriously reduce the ammount of muscle mass you can put on. But long slow distance will burn fat without producing that nasty cortisol stuff.
Justin |
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| s2oooR |
quote:
Originally posted by JustinL@Aug 13 2003, 04:11 PM
To get to steady state aerobic it takes about three minutes, so you would have to be doing reps for three minutes before your muscles would start to work aerobically...
i think their is an error somewhere in there....do u mean to say, "anaerobic" instead of aerobic? |
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| s2oooR |
| the way it sounds, is that when your not 'tired' thats when u make the most gains? .....and then once u get tired....your muscles get more oxygen that way, hence the aerobic state u suggest? Doesnt make sense....I thoguht u start off with aerobic and then it turns to anaerobic? |
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| JustinL |
Ok here we go...
ATP-CP system: This system stores ATP in your muscles and uses phosphocreatine to turn ADP back into ATP. This system lasts for a maximum of about 9 seconds. (100m sprint)
Anaerobic glycolysis system (Lactic acid system): breaks down sugar into lactic acid and ATP. This system starts up quickly but after about 45 seconds you start to feel the burn of lactic acid build up. This system also does not require oxygen to create energy. 400-800m events
Aerobic glycolysis: This system is much more effecient as it does not produce lactic acid and yields much more ATP vs. anaerobic metabolism. Also using carbohydrates here. It takes about 3 minutes before this becomes the primary source of energy and swings into full gear (steady state) (1km + events).
Aerobic fat metabolism: Fat can only be metabolized in the presence of oxygen through Beta-Oxidation and the Krebs cycle (I'm not going into the krebs cycle though). This system is more efficient even than aerobic glycolysis in that it is almost 4 times as effiecient, but requires O2 to work.
Now lets say you take off on a bike full power for as long as you can... the first 9 seconds or so will be ATP-CP system. You could do this holding your breath and feel no effects with a power output around 1000W. Then this system runs out of fuel... now you start using anaerobic glycolysis and you still arent breathing hard, but after about 45 seconds the lactic acid in your muscles is unbearable and hampering contractions (400W). You keep riding but slow down to clear the lactic acid and in this time you notice that you are starting to breathe hard, this is because you are now switching over to aerobic metabolism. But remember no system ever just cuts out, they are always working, just in different proportions. So you are riding at this steady state and decide to up the intensity. O2 becomes the limiting factor again and fat burning is maxed out... this required energy is now going to come from anaerobic systems mainly anaerobic glycolisys and lactic acid will start to build again... but lucky for you that your blood can buffer this and turn it into CO2 which is easy to breathe out. So the harder that you go the more oxygen is the limiting agent and thus limiting your potential to burn fat.
What does this have to do with weight lifting for muscle mass gains? Your goal is to get the most quality contractions you can out of a set, and because lactic acid inhibits muscle contraction, your goal is to avoid this. So excercises of longer than 6-8 reps will be a more endurance excercise than a strength excercise.
Muscle fibre types: Type 1 (slow twitch)-- primarily aerobic muscle fibres that dont see much hypertrophy (growth) but can work forever.
Type 2a-- these are faster twitch fibres that are primarily aerobic, but can work anaerobically too. Weight training helps these guys grow.
Type 2b-- Fast twitch fibres. These are the ones you are trying to build. They respond very well to weight training and are primarily anaerobic in nature. (ATP-CP muscles)
Every muscle has a combination of these fibres in them and current research says that you cant change the type of a muscle fibre, and you cant grow new fibres.
Wow that was long, hope it clears things up a bit.
Justin |
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| s2oooR |
ok, that makes alot more sense! THank you!
So i guess i'll up the weight a bit? lol
So basically, since in anaerobic glycolysis, u dont "feel it" yet (lactic acid build up), that's when u make the most gains? .....and its when you DO start feeling it, is when your actually making less gains than when u werent tired?
.....so if u start getting tired due to the build up of lactic acid, u should wait till that feeling goes away to do your next set? Otherwise you wont be maximizing the gains because your using aerobic gylcolysis?
I hope i got that all right :wacko: |
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| JustinL |
| Bingo! :bigthumbup: |
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| s2oooR |
| So much for the no pain no gain attitude...lol now its "if u feel pain, there's no gain" :P |
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| laserawd94 |
I run for a living. I do track and field. I run everyday. All types of runs.
Every morning I do 10 miles maybe more. Then atnight after work I do 2-3 hours of Running. Tempo, slow pace or, extreme running ( all hills).
Except the weekend I run 3 to 4 times. I run about 150 miles a week.
Then I work in twice a week of weights low weights like doing squats of just the bar about 100 times. Stuff like that.
Then once a week get on the bike and do 2min hard then 2 min easy for 30 mins.
Well thats what do every week.
I do over train but it will pay out in a couple of years when I'm at the starting line in the olympics Games 2008.. |
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| JustinL |
Laser, What kind of race are you training for? We'll keep an eye out for you in 2008!
"Over training" will not pay off though. But it doesn't sound like you are. If you find yourself losing endurance and getting colds all the time, then you are over training and it's time to lighten the load a little.
Justin |
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| laserawd94 |
Hey justin I havent been sick for 8 years now. Not even a cold, Im traing for the 3000 Meter steeple chase and the Marathon.
I know guy who over train, and i only do half of what they do. |
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