| wong |
| Just checking you opinions.... |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
| Of course I said turbo <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> |
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| test |
| I'm not out to break land speed records so I went with SC. City driving and gotta luv the SC whine. |
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| CYA |
| my vote goes for turbo. but that's not to say others don't perform well. |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
Yep, I love the sound of gear driven SC's on the street, then again, I love the sound of a BOV on the street too <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
For a quick boot or tooling around town, SC is by far the easiest setup and less complicated than the turbo.
Just a matter of preference I guess. |
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| CYA |
| you can have the bov on both sc and turbo. |
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| CYA |
| i don't understand why people tend to think sc's are less complicated? <!--emo&???--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo--> |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
Well, it terms of just getting started... I look at it this way:
I've finished with all of the bolt-ons, header, cams, CAI, exhaust.
If I want to go with turbo, I need to turf the header, chances are, the CAI too. Design a completely new IC piping, intercooler + end tanks, BOV (Yes, these can be on SC's too), probably a 3" exhaust too, may or may not be compatable with cams, find some way of plumbing the water and oil lines to the turbo, fab some mounts for the IC, buy/build a new manifold.
If I go with a SC, I can keep my headers, CAI (may be a close fit), maybe exhaust, maybe cams. Bolt it on, throw on the belt, maybe an intercooler, BOV.
It's just that your NA mods can adapt to the SC mod much more easily than the Turbo setup.
But that's how I look at it. |
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| circle |
SC are way more less hassle. Most SC kits go in less than a day. Turbo charger's are a pain because of dealing with rusty Exhaust components.
I'd rather deal with belts than Exhaust parts. |
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| CYA |
but then that would be because you started off wrong. not because of turbo / supercharger design. the points brought up are in their own "category" shall we say. intercooler design and plumbing is inherent to both power adders... not just turbos alone. the addition of an intercooler to a supercharged motor would introduce the same "difficulties". just because one decides that 3" exhaust would be beneficial to the turbo powered motor doesn't mean that another individual couldn't decide on the same thing for their supercharged motor. the exhaust upgrade is it's own "category". not just because it's a turbo powered car. same with the cam. the n/a cam(s) would be swapped out for a turbo grind for better performance just the same as the n/a cam(s) being swapped out for better supercharged performance. again... not just inherent to turbo motors.
rusty exhaust components are not inherent to turbos... it's it's own "category"... besides... there's wd40. that's not so "difficult". if a rusty bolt is a problem for you... then you're in way over your head with a supercharger / turbo install. |
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| circle |
That's exactly what I'm arguing. Turbo Charger installs are more complicated, and in most poeple's cases, over their heads!
No install is touble free, but when dealing with exhaust components, most parts are seized because of heat. Now if you were looking for mild gains both of which a SC and TC work, why not go the path of least resistance???
- Less chance of seized bolts
- easier access to install. Most TC installs I've seen require work from under the car b/c of the downpipe. |
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| CYA |
you're not seeing my point(s). let me put it this way.
ask yourself this... do rusty / seized exhaust bolts come with every turbo kit? |
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| REFLUX |
bleh, no lag on SC's
i know SC's can have lag too but i assume some ppl like SC's cuz of lag related issues
i also like the "off the line" power, low end power rules hehe <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> |
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| CYA |
| i've said this time and time again but i will say it again... turbo's do not have lag if sized properly. best example i can think of is the mustang. haha. i wonder why? anyways... with a number incon turbo kits being finished up over the past few years many have confirmed there is NO turbo lag with this kit. the system was designed and engineered by a well known individual in the turbo performance market. turbo's were sized properly for the motor and owner's have put the "turbo lag" to the test. putting along in traffic at 2000rpm you cannot floor the throttle and let go fast enough to not produce boost. with most owners running about 10-12psi peak... at approximately 3000 rpm WOT boost is around 6psi. much more than what i see with my supercharger at that same rpm. and no... i don't have my pulley's set up incorrectly. mathematically with no belt slippage (impossible i know) i see max supercharger impeller rpm at about 6300rpm. ok, so maybe some of you are saying that my supercharger isn't enough to feed my car? the same s-trim vortech's on other cars have made as much as just under 600rwhp. i'm about 100rwhp shy of that. ok, so some of you might say boost is nothing but a number... yes... i agree... but... my dyno numbers and curve is similar to those incon turbo'd 302ci mustangs. mine is a supercharged 351ci. ok, some might say those incon kits probably have small turbos? nope... same turbo kits on other mustangs have gone about 150mph in the quarter mile. what's the point of all this? point is... turbo lag is a thing of the past with today's research and developement. |
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| VR666 |
| I used to have a vortech supercharger on my car. I thought installing a SC would give me instant power, but I was wrong. I have to wait until about 3700RPM to feel a significant amout of power increase. So my point is that SC don't always give instant power. Lag can occur in both SC and turbos. But I do like the whine of the supercharger. Plus it is alot easier to install. Most of the work can be done on top of the car. |
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| CYA |
| i do agree that in installing a supercharger most work will be above the car but... you'll still need to tap that pan. that is not any different than the typical turbo install. so while tapping the pan why not put in the down pipe etc? i still don't see why people think turbo's are so much more difficult to install. |
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| mitsuman |
Duh... Man's trying to vote and its saying I've already voted... Freaking super sensitive buttons or just old age in the hands and fingers..... <!--emo&:angry:--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'><!--endemo--> _<!--emo&:angry:--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'><!--endemo-->
Anyways, _I prefer the turbo with nitrous on top <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> _hehe _
The installation of a turbo or a supercharger into a NA car maybe equally difficult specifically when a pre-manufactured kit does not exist for your vehicle. _Its a little easier when dealing with a pre-manufactured kit where custom pieces are made and hardware that you have not thought off is included. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Dealing with broken nuts and bolts is quite common around exhaust components especially in older cars. _Broken nuts and bolts also originate from improper torque applications, or when inexperienced people screw in instead of out. _Seen it a few times.
CYA is right, properly sizing a turbo for the motor can eliminate LAG. _As an example Mitsubishi has managed to get full torque out of their 2 liter 4G63 motor just around 3000 rpm at 14 psi or so. _ My car has a big turbo on it and when doing some lag testing, 3 rd gear starting at 2000 rpm, I got full boost (set) just after 4000 rpm. _Between 3000 and 4000 the boost rises moderately until full boost is reached. _
I suspect that with a positive displacement SC, the low rpm torque may be a little better than that of a centrifugal type. _What do you say CYA? _ This might explain that VR666 is getting power a little higher in the rpm band. _Just my thoughts.
M
<!--EDIT|mitsuman|Feb. 05 2002,20:59--> |
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| Loose |
Sam, I think you're kind of missing the point. _At least with the power/lag thing.
Look at it from an import perspective. _Take James' Rabbit for instance. He has a big turbo, that can make 800hp @ 30psi on a good flowing 3 liter motor. _There is now way around lag, at that power level, even if it's sized right. _I expect his power curve (the shape at least) to look like this:
<a href="http://store5.yimg.com/I/supra_1673_33572987[/img" target="_blank">]http://store5.yimg.com/I/supra_1673_33572987[/img]</a>
(turbo is about the same size, on a 3L motor also).
Is it sized right? _Yes, if you want to be able to make 800hp. _Does it lag? _Yes. _This is just a trade off that comes with a turbo. _Power vs. lag. _Fact of life you could say. _That being said, new technology, especially in blade and bearing design has vastly improved turbo performance in the last 10 years.
I suppose that when you have small block V8 with around twice the displacement of most imports, lag is less of an issue.
Edit: This graph says it all: 650hp Corvette vs a Supra (bit more powerful). Both turbos are "sized right", but displacement wins in the drivability dept:
<a href="http://store5.yimg.com/I/supra_1673_47079126" target="_blank">http://store5.yimg.com/I/supra_1673_47079126</a>
And for those of you who think that superchargers don't have lag, listen to VR666. _I hate to say it, but take a turbo and centrifugal suprecharger with the same boost, both sized to make 300hp on a Vr6 lets say... and floored them both on the higway in 5th, the supercharged car would get walked.
Roots chargers are a different story, but their efficiency sucks, so who cares about those anyway <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
<!--EDIT|Loose|Feb. 05 2002,22:31--> |
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| CYA |
yup... roots style / positive displacement sc's are known for a bit better low end power. but... let's stop another misconception before it even starts here. they can and do make good power on the top end as well. two examples that i can think of right now. larry widmer's sohc civic which runs 123 or was it 127 mph through the traps. all around good street and strip performer. the other example is more of a "blanket" example... top fuel dragsters. yup... roots style.
now as for jame's rabbit... let's compare apples to apples here. yes... the "turbo" will have some lag... but... like i say... apples to apples. think if james was going for 800hp on a 3.0l n/a or supercharged. where is the power going to be? yes... upper rpms. see where i'm going with this one? it's not that the turbo motor won't make decent power down low just because it's a turbo motor... it's because it's displacement challenged and has to make 800 hp by power adder and / or rpm. but if you compare say a 400hp 3.0L and an 800hp 3.0L then yes... "power band" will be higher in the 800hp version but that's not just inherent to a turbo application. |
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| CYA |
| hahaha... who voted for the big block? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> for the record... it wasn't me. like i said... my vote goes for turbos. <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo--> |
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| Loose |
A roots blower will make way more lowend than a centrifugal blower. Off idle it would make full boost, in my friend's Vortech'ed VR6 (not VR666's), it made 0 psi. The thing didn't really make any good boost until 4000rpm. As far as power potential, a good turbo can have a max efficiency of 75%+. A good positive displacement blower would have what? 55%?? Not a problem if your running methanol or nitro I guess, ala NHRA.
Anyway, good discussion, TTYL. |
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| BlueTurboEGG |
Wow, lots of new posts here since yesterday <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Well in terms complicated stuff, you don't always have to go with a intercooler right away with a SC.
True, smaller turbo kits don't require this either, but c'mon, who here is running a turbokit and not wanting to make a snotload of power?. |
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| CYA |
you don't have to go with an intercooler with a big turbo either andy. just like you don't have to go with an intercooler with a big supercharger. people make a "snotload" of power with unintercooled supercharged cars. why would you think that only small turbo's can run with no intercooler?
i know this is yet another mustang example but hey... this is what i know. haha.
disclaimer: in no way am i saying only mustangs can pull this off... <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://asianet.ca/images/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->
perfect example of big power with no intercooler is the NMRA real street class. no intercoolers permitted and these guys were running 10's last year and this year many predict 9's for 2002. doesn't sound like stupid fast cars but you should see the rules in this class. NO porting of anything. and the crazy thing about this class... STOCK cams only. lol. and superchargers are limited to the likes of mine... with pulleys which spin them slower than what i spin mine to. vehicle weights are limited to 3300lbs supercharged or 3200 nitrous assited. which is basically your showroom stock weights.
sooooo... point is you don't have to have the intercooler to make good power. of course if i had a choice i would run an intercooler. |
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