| Dan_Gyoba |
How far is it LEGAL to go in preventing some scumbag from getting into your car, or, more accurately, in preventing them from taking your property away once they do.
Let's face it. All the alarm system goodies in the world won't stop some waste of skin from smashing your window. Unlike James Bond cars, real cars can't take a hammer blow to the window and bounce it off.
So, hypothetically, it's 3:00 AM, and my car alarm goes off. Since my car alarm doesn't false on me, I get out of bed and look. Some piece of garbage is in my car. I grab something handy by the door to go deter the thief.
Depending on the day, what's handy to grab could be any of several things, from my big screwdriver (2.5 lbs of steel) to a practice sword (115cm of red oak) to a 6' quarterstaff. The point being here that I am going to be capable of potentially doing a lot of harm to someone.
As I am at the moment, calm and collected, I realise that I could be bringing the proverbial knife to a gunfight, however past experience has shown me that I will NOT be so calm if this happens.
Assuming that I stop hitting the guy when he goes down, how likely would I be to wind up on assault charges? It's probably safe to assume that there will be at least a broken bone or two at this point, though any head injuries would be most likely from falling. |
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| ron1 |
Assuming that I stop hitting the guy when he goes down, how likely would I be to wind up on assault charges? It's probably safe to assume that there will be at least a broken bone or two at this point, though any head injuries would be most likely from falling.
why stop. beat the fucker till he's dead
tell the cops it was self defense
the guy is dead he's not gonna say it wasn't
he didnt ask you if it was ok to steal your car
why would you wonder if its ok to beat him to death for trying to steal it
to most guys on here their car is a part of them if some one tries to steal it that makes them feel violated
if we dont kill these guys and their first attempt backfires
they are just gonna move on to the next VICTIM |
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| BigTrucker |
why would you hang around for the cops to show up after you beat the shit out of him?
Do your thing, leave his broken battered body by your car, go back to your house/apartment, call the cops, play stupid about your bloody hands and baseball bat in the closet. |
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| BLOCKER |
Under section 494 of the criminal code you have the power to arrest this person as you have found him commiting a criminal offence.
you are further protected under the criminal code by using as much force as is reasonably neccessary to affect that arrest. This can only be determined on a case by case basis and your ability to articualate the circumstances surounding the arrest.
Once detained, the subject needs to be turned over to the police as soon as practicable. |
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| Mr_Chandler |
| So if he says he will kill me then I can smash his fucking skull flat with a hammer? I feel that is practical force under a death threat. |
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| DivineRight |
Do what you need to do, make sure you can back up why you needed to do it.
Chopping off limbs and curb stomping would be a bit excessive though ;) |
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| Mr_Chandler |
| Ya. True but watching his head turn to mush would make me smile if I had to replace a window on my car. Insurance is not always practical when shit like this happens. |
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| HEWSINATOR |
Do not rely on any of the following, it may very well be wrong:
Seeing as this has taken a turn more to self-defence, it is practical to look at those sections of the code (may not be accurate):
• S 34(1) Everyone who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses in not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.
• S 34(2) Everyone who is unlawfully assaulted and who [intends and causes] causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if
(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and
(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm
Courts have found that excessive force negatives the defence wholly; Murder not reduced to manslaughter for example. |
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| ron1 |
Once detained, the subject needs to be turned over to the police as soon as practicable
even if he's in a body bag
or does the coroner take over |
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| Mr_Chandler |
Nice ron1. I agree. What is procedure once in a body bag?
Also, why are there so many laws protecting the assholes that roam the streets fucking up cars? |
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| DivineRight |
Mr. Chandler, I ask the same question every day I go to work. Does anyone know why inmates get cable TV, specific diets and foods that adhere to their religion and beliefs, brand new gyms, all the medications they want and the right to vote.
30 years ago for theft under $250, people spent 4 months in jail. Nowadays for theft under $5000, we are lucky if they even see 1 day in jail.
The police catch the bad guys but the Judges are the ones that release them. Always remember that. |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by DivineRight
Mr. Chandler, I ask the same question every day I go to work. Does anyone know why inmates get cable TV, specific diets and foods that adhere to their religion and beliefs, brand new gyms, all the medications they want and the right to vote.
30 years ago for theft under $250, people spent 4 months in jail. Nowadays for theft under $5000, we are lucky if they even see 1 day in jail.
The police catch the bad guys but the Judges are the ones that release them. Always remember that.
Simple answer.
You can thank all the bleeding hearts out there. |
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| euro777 |
just make sure if you catch someone in the act that they are actually in the car.......or were in the car before you yanked them out.....
after a break in a few years ago i asked the cop frankly what i could do, he said the same reasonable force spiel, which i completely understand and would live by.
***but*** he also said if the guy was TRYING to break in and you catch him, proceed to beat the shit out of him (within reason) it would be in your "good citizen" interest to make sure a window is broken or the door is forced open before the cops show up- of course this is only applicable if you catch the fuckhead before they gain entry-
so if you catch someone prying your door open, duct tape them to the nearest tree, punch/kick/pee/cricket practice/roll of pennies in sock/crab apple slow death from tennis ball tosser/honey and ants......but make sure the window is broken before the fuzz show up (and give yourself a bloody lip for effect) |
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| Dan_Gyoba |
As far as them being in the act, my car alarm is unlikely to go off before there's actual damage to the car. I despise false alarms, and feel that they're worse than the alarm failing to go off. If the blinking light didn't deter the vandal/thief, I'm not going to let them smack the car with a newspaper enough times that I don't bother getting up to even look out the window, and the neighbors call in a nuisance report on me.
When my car alarm goes off, it'll mean that something has hit the car fairly hard, a window is broken, or a door/hoot/hatch is open. At that point, it's a matter of making sure that the car or contents of the car stay in my posession.
@Blocker: Thank you for the clarification, that's pretty much the info that I wanted.
To summarise though, I can do whatever I need to do to make sure that the guy is still around when the police arrive, but doing more than that is maybe not so good. Use of "weapons" isn't going to make the difference so much as what I do with them then.
Another somewhat related question: Martial arts training. At one point in time, being trained in martial arts (To a certain level) was -- or so I've been told -- qualified as having a weapon if you were to be charged with assault. Is this or was this ever actually the case? |
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| Inzane |
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Gyoba
Another somewhat related question: Martial arts training. At one point in time, being trained in martial arts (To a certain level) was -- or so I've been told -- qualified as having a weapon if you were to be charged with assault. Is this or was this ever actually the case?
I can remember hearing stories about this ever since being a kid on the playground in grade school. Its always sounded like an urban myth to me. :dunno: |
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| AudiInProgress |
Here's what I found with a quick google search;
Does military training render you considered a "deadly weapon" in the eyes of the law?
No of course it doesn't. I haven't heard that rumor in a long time. There used to be another one where people would tell me that they were black belts and they had to register their hands as deadly weapons with the police office.
What you are talking about comes from an old court case that is sometimes referenced. In court cases involving violent confrontations, lawyers and judges may advise the jury to bear in mind a person's martial arts, boxing or military training when evaluating the facts of the case, as in the Matter of the Welfare of DSF, 416 N.W.2d 772 (Minn. App. 1988), where the Minnesota Court of Appeals concluded that the defendant, who had substantial experience in karate, was aware enough of the potential of his blows to deliberately break the plaintiffs jaw. But that is a lot different from legally stating that the person in question is a registered and/or licensed deadly weapon. |
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| Dan_Gyoba |
quote:
Originally posted by Inzane
I can remember hearing stories about this ever since being a kid on the playground in grade school. Its always sounded like an urban myth to me. :dunno:
Of course, but hey, can't hurt to ask.
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
Here's what I found with a quick google search;
Well, I tend to take most info found on the Internet with a grain of salt, and such things are not always pertinent to local laws in any event. I figured that it wouldn't hurt to ask, y'know?
I do know that there was no such "registration" required, implied or otherwise at the time that I got my black belt, though I have been advised that in the event of a court battle, it would be best not to hurt someone more than would be strictly necessary, even if it is self defence. |
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| DivineRight |
| It is all CON-AIR and Nick Cage's fault! |
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| shortie |
so... chuck norris is then NOT considered to be a leathal weapon :confused:
I beg to differ
:beer:
have the right lawyer, and in those situations with the beating of criminals in the theft circumstance, it will be no problem to get away with it. sad but true. |
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| ReasonOne |
I've been in this situation. Years ago I caught someone trying to steal my car and I would up instinctively kicking the door shut and crushing the crook's hand. He was pinned and couldn't move until the cops arrived.
I won't get into the details but long story short - I had a lot of questions to answer but in the end, the cops let me go and prosecuted the crook to the fullest extent of the law.
WARNING: Be prepared to justify your actions !!!!!! Be prepared for a lot of hassle and a lot of red tape!!!!!!!! Be prepared to be asked the same questions OVER and OVER and OVER (it would be to your benefit to answer them CONSISTENTLY)!!!!
But then again, I had several things going for me:
1) I was a minor at the time.
2) The crook was armed.
3) The crook had an outstanding warrant.... :blue:
4) I had witnesses.
Whatever you do, have a story and stick to it. Write down everything that happened as soon as you have the opportunity (details may get lost in the heat of the moment or if you're adrenaline's still pumping). |
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| BLOCKER |
quote:
Originally posted by shortie
so... chuck norris is then NOT considered to be a leathal weapon :confused:
Chuck Norris is the only exception |
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| Beagles |
quote:
Originally posted by BLOCKER
Chuck Norris is the only exception
When are they gonna put that in the law books?
I wouldnt wanna mix that up... |
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| DivineRight |
| ReasonOne, I bet that bad guy won't be sneaking around any of your vehicles anytime soon ;) Good work. |
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| dtjohnst |
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Chandler
Ya. True but watching his head turn to mush would make me smile if I had to replace a window on my car. Insurance is not always practical when shit like this happens.
You might want to seek professional help if watching a human skull turn into pink mist and bone chips would make you smile. |
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| SilverNeonRacer |
quote:
Originally posted by dtjohnst
You might want to seek professional help if watching a human skull turn into pink mist and bone chips would make you smile.
Sorry gotta say it, HE LIVES!
On a side note, my bro is like that... he wants to buy a fresh cadaver and shove it through a wood chipper just to watch the spray... but he is messed in the head, knows it, saw a shrink, shrink told him to off him self or keep living in my parent's basement. |
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| Mr_Chandler |
The only one that needs help is the piece of shit who decided that my car was open for him to take or destroy.
I believe that I have the right to protect my property and ya smiling about it is normal when you have been ripped off a few times and one day you catch the little fuck. Cant say Im jumping for joy about my insurance going up due to some low life wrecking my shit. A claim is a claim and we all know how the insurance agents play that card during a renewal.
What do you suggest. Turn him over to the authorities.
I feel better already. |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Chandler
The only one that needs help is the piece of shit who decided that my car was open for him to take or destroy.
I believe that I have the right to protect my property and ya smiling about it is normal when you have been ripped off a few times and one day you catch the little fuck. Cant say Im jumping for joy about my insurance going up due to some low life wrecking my shit. A claim is a claim and we all know how the insurance agents play that card during a renewal.
What do you suggest. Turn him over to the authorities.
I feel better already.
I vote turn'em into shark chum and go shark hunting. Remember to take a video and send it to his family along side with a picute of you holding some chum along side your prize shark! :D |
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| XtraX |
| I cannot find the article today but in this weekends Edmonton Sun I read an story of a man being charged when he punched a man who was breaking into his car in an alley while he was making out with a lady. I believe the B&E perp died after falling in the alley. If anyone can find the article post it up. |
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| Mr_Chandler |
| Shark Chum! Thats the greatest thing I've heard all week!:thumbup: |
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| euro777 |
http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstar...95-c6a08356a338
here is the BandE monster punch story link.
if this guy gets off it may set a precedence for being able to protect out property with furious fists.
It sounds like if he stuck around and called an ambulance he would have a better chance of getting away with the punch of death- instead he just left....we willhave to see what the courts say. |
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| AudiInProgress |
Sounds to me like he did a little more than punch the guy and walk away...
This 22 year old punk was probably banging his girlfriend in the car, the hobo wandered up, and tried to get in on the action... So the college kid bootfucked him in the head and then drove off. The bum later dies from injury...
Hrm...
Strange case. |
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| euro777 |
^ thats kinda what i thought, I doubt 1 punch could do this.
but he could have punched the guy out and then he hit is head while falling.
fuck i have had my rides broken into many times over the years, but never while i was in it, first reaction would be to destroy the guy too. |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
Sounds to me like he did a little more than punch the guy and walk away...
This 22 year old punk was probably banging his girlfriend in the car, the hobo wandered up, and tried to get in on the action... So the college kid bootfucked him in the head and then drove off. The bum later dies from injury...
Hrm...
Strange case.
I actually do not care. The guy deserved what he got. He ends up face down drowning in a pool of his own blood because he got caught while trying to bust into someone’s car…well….he gets zero sympathy from me.
I guess I will never win a bleeding heart or humanitarian award.
Anyways,
I am sure the person busting into someone’s car is not going to go to the Police and file an assault charge. :lol:
Think about it…. |
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| AudiInProgress |
quote:
Originally posted by GOT BOOST
I actually do not care. The guy deserved what he got. He ends up face down drowning in a pool of his own blood because he got caught while trying to bust into someone’s car…well….he gets zero sympathy from me.
I guess I will never win a bleeding heart or humanitarian award.
Anyways,
I am sure the person busting into someone’s car is not going to go to the Police and file an assault charge. :lol:
Think about it….
The thing is, the car was unlocked, and there were occupants inside... What part of that is considering "busting into someone's car?" |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
The thing is, the car was unlocked, and there were occupants inside... What part of that is considering "busting into someone's car?"
Well Rob,
Why would you go around a parking lot crouched between cars checking to see if the doors are unlocked?
Perhaps I should rephrase my statement to... "suspiciously crouched between cars looking to gently open the doors and remove valuable contents." :rolleyes:
Give your head a shake man. |
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| euro777 |
if a stranger walked into your house while you are banging your wife/gf/wife's sister/gf's sister... the first thing that should be done is an attack, then ask questions- doors locked or wide open.
same diff if you are catchin some trim in the backseat, this guy caught a car thief and peeping tom- two birds one stone (fist) |
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| AudiInProgress |
We only have one side of the story, because unfortunately, the other man is fucking DEAD...
You're so quick to take the word of some 22 year old punk college kid as gospel?
Bullshit. There's no way his representation is 100% accurate... Obviously he's done something wrong, otherwise he wouldn't be facing charges and $20K bail. |
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| GOT BOOST |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
We only have one side of the story, because unfortunately, the other man is fucking DEAD...
You're so quick to take the word of some 22 year old punk college kid as gospel?
Bullshit. There's no way his representation is 100% accurate... Obviously he's done something wrong, otherwise he wouldn't be facing charges and $20K bail.
So what who cares. |
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| AudiInProgress |
quote:
Originally posted by GOT BOOST
So what who cares.
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| Dan_Gyoba |
quote:
Originally posted by AudiInProgress
Bullshit. There's no way his representation is 100% accurate... Obviously he's done something wrong, otherwise he wouldn't be facing charges and $20K bail.
'Common sense' agrees with the first part of this. In any story there's 3 sides, My side, Your side, and the truth.
However I find the second part of this statement personally kind of scary. By this reasoning, if the police lay charges, then the guy must be guilty. Sounds too much like "guilty until proven innocent" for my tastes.
Now, that being said, there are several different things happening here. It's one thing to defend your car, it's quite another to leave an injured person. Disregard for life, I think it is.
I would likely hit someone to defend my car, in fact, I started this thread on the premise that I would. I would not, however, leave the scumbag to his fate. I'd much rather call police/ambulance.
Chances are that he would be able to get up eventually. A couple of broken bones aren't usually fatal. Then the guy takes off, and my car is still damaged. No, I'd rather that he be in custody. |
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| AudiInProgress |
| What I'm saying is, the police obviously have probably grounds to press charges against this individual, therefore I think it's more than likely that the news story is not divulging all the fact... At least not accurately. |
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