| K20A2, K20Z3, or K24A2 - Click HERE for Original Thread |
| type_r_project |
I've pretty much abandoned the idea of boosting my POS D17A1, or getting the type r K20A. The only dilemma now is deciding between the K engines which one would be the most economical vs. performance to swap into my EM2's engine bay. The K20A2, K20Z3, and K24A2 all have similiar hp and torque specs. I'm just wondering which one has more boost potential / reliability. Any Civic owners out there have any suggestions? :dunno:
P.S. I've posted this question on civicforums as well, so don't just refer me to that site lol. I'm just trying to get as much feedback as possible. Thank-you for your attention.
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| kraize |
| K20AR from the RSX type R in japan.... |
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| type_r_project |
quote:
Originally posted by kraize
K20AR from the RSX type R in japan....
K20AR? Never heard of that engine.:dunno: i wasn't aware that there were JDM RSX type Rs, or were you thinking of the Type S ?:confused: |
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| Ayeso |
No its just a K20A thats it.. no R on the end... people just refer to it as that.. its found in the following cars
Found in:
* 2007- Honda Civic Type-R (FD2)
o Displacement: 1998 cc
o Compression: 11.7:1
o Power: 225 bhp (225 PS, 165 kW) @ 8000 rpm
o Torque: 159 ft·lbf (215 N·m) @ 6100 rpm
o Redline: 8600 rpm
* 2001-2006 Honda Civic Type-R (EP3)
o Displacement: 1998 cc
o Compression: 11.5:1
o Power: 212 bhp (218 PS, 158 kW) @ 8000 rpm
o Torque: 149 ft·lbf (202 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
o Redline: 8600 rpm
* 2002-2007 Honda Integra Type-R (DC5)
o Displacement: 1998 cc
o Compression: 11.5:1
o Power: 217 bhp (220 PS, 162 kW) @ 8000 rpm
o Torque: 152 ft·lbf (206 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
o Redline: 8800 rpm
o I-VTEC Engagement: 5600rpm
* 2003-2007 Honda Accord Euro-R
o Displacement: 1998 cc
o Compression: 11.5:1
o Power: 217 bhp (220 PS, 162 kW) @ 8000 rpm
o Torque: 152 f·lbf (206 N·m) @ 7000 rpm
o Redline: 8800 rpm |
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| type_r_project |
| Oh yeah, I've looked into the k20a, :rolleyes: expensive, and tricky to boost. I've pretty much given up on affording it. |
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| Ayeso |
For boost i wouldnt bother....
If you want to boost a stock engine id do a K24A1...
its lower comp 9.6:1 bigger displacement, throw on a 6 speed and its good. much better then a K20A3 or something |
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| project.D. |
If you want boost then listen to Ayeso...don't go with high-comp motors like the k20a, a2 etc... For your project, k24 + six speed is your best choice. Good luck.:thumbup:
BTW, RSX Type S was USDM with the k20a2. |
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| Ayeso |
quote:
Originally posted by project.D.
If you want boost then listen to Ayeso...don't go with high-comp motors like the k20a, a2 etc... For your project, k24 + six speed is your best choice. Good luck.:thumbup:
BTW, RSX Type S was USDM with the k20a2.
If I were you, id just do a K24A2 swap.. with type S head and 6 speed and it would be a fast car... no need for boost and about half the money |
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| project.D. |
quote:
Originally posted by Ayeso
If I were you, id just do a K24A2 swap.. with type S head and 6 speed and it would be a fast car... no need for boost and about half the money
QFT
K24 and K20A2 hybrid ftw. |
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| Ayeso |
quote:
Originally posted by project.D.
QFT
K24 and K20A2 hybrid ftw.
I spent 4 months researching K swaps before i decided it was too much $$$ :( |
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| type_r_project |
| Which engine is less expensive and eqasier to find ? The K20A2, or K24A2?:blink: |
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| Ayeso |
ive never looked into the differences.. but the K24A2 was in production for 4 years
K20A2 is out of the 02-04 RSX type S
K24A2 is out of a 04-08 TSX |
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| friedn00dles |
| thot the k20's off the base rsx is a better option to boost due to the 6spd tranny or clutch(cant remember) burning out quickly due to the shorter shifts in 3rd gear. i cant remember all to well but its something like that |
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| zhao |
both k20a2 and k24 engines are about as easy to find i'd say. not sure on the price difference though, but ur still going to need to find a 6 speed tranny so odds are the k24 is going to cost more all said and done.
i'd still consider the k20a3 for one reason only; no one wants it so its dirt cheap if you can find one for sale and would be a cheap way to get a turbo k series in ur em2.
as far as reliability goes, there is no real difference between the engines, but you definitely do not really want a high compression engine for boost. boosting a k20a2 is pretty common but its still a high compression engine. supercharging it is a easier method compared to turboing it (usually cheaper too), and you can get 260whp out of a supercharged k20a2 if you want, thats about where people usually peak their turbo'ed k20a2s also.
also, put a lot of power in a honda and expect stuff to start breaking like crazy. the trannies are pretty weak and do not hold up well to launching, even if you aren't making too much power. i've known people to blow theirs apart at the 1/4 mile track that aren't even making 200whp on a k20a2.
IMO, if you want a quarter mile car that will still be street legal, start with a better platform. hondas are for corners. |
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| type_r_project |
| Found a K20A2 from a written-off RSX :eek:, what would be a fair price before I go to the guy and start chatting about buying it off him? Also, the transmission on Hondas ARE weak yes, but aren't there aftermarket parts / peices I can use to increase the strength?:dunno: 1/4 Hondas are possible yes, but I don't intend to do a half-assed build. i like doing things right, it's just that EM2s aren't expected to do well (it seems) and I like surprising other people ;) BTW, thanx for all the replies so far. I really appreciate it. I look forward to the meeting on the 25th, if it's not cancelled...:blue: |
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| zhao |
you can get aftermarket trannies, there are a number of companies that build them (spoon would be one), but while they are pretty cheap for a honda, they are still not that cheap.
from what u are describing of 'doing it right' ur bill is probably going to be closer to 10g all said and done, and ur car probably will be in the high 13s and having traction issues.
financially it would make more sense to buy a better car because even after doing all that work to ur em2, its not going to be worth that much more, maybe even worth less if it starts to have problems. all said and done, its still going to be a em2 and probably an unreliable one at that (regardless of using all high end parts or not, its still going to have issues).
here is what honda owners generally do, they buy a honda, they drop retarded amounts of money into modding it, it never gets that much faster, they sell it and buy something thats turbo.
so my advice is instead of spending 10g on modding ur em2, 10g will get you into a good condition jdm mr-2 or wrx or a number of other cars that can run high 13s/low 14s stock with a good driver. you will still have the em2, and the other car will still be worth close what u paid to it provided u do not destroy it. or you could sell your em2 and buy a used STI in the low 30s.
but if u still decide to mod ur honda, go for it, there are far worse cars to mod and if it blows up, its usually cheap enough to fix. |
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| Holset Hatch |
zhao i agree with the most of what you are saying, i just want to stick my .02 in here;
"here is what honda owners generally do, they buy a honda, they drop retarded amounts of money into modding it, it never gets that much faster, they sell it and buy something thats turbo".
i can tell you that 90% of the time that happens because of a poor tune. there are tons of very quick, stock/built motor honda's that are very reliable. the problem lies in the fact that most honda owners dont get a proper tune or run proper management on their cars, they run like crap, and make poor power.
they end up selling for a stock turbo car, because that is whats easy to do.
now to the original poster, if you just want a reliable "no touch" daily driver. sell your car and buy a factory turbo car. if you dont mind learning, working, fighting with your car on occasion. as any non-factory turbo car will be like that, then i say turbo your em2. just be prepared for it to cost way more $ than you intended, and for it to be a lot of work on your part, if you dont have reliable people that can do it for you. |
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| uncle ben |
| I would suggest getting a k20a3, hondata, and turbo kit. It will give you decent power and keep the cost as low as possible becasue the engines usually come with the 5 spd transmission. If you can pick and choose go with the A3 from the civic sir, not the rsx base, the base rsx has a plastic intake manifold. Then after running this set up for a while and getting rid of any bugs you can always turn up the boost till it grenades and upgrade to a k24 with an rsx type s head. The k24 is your best bet for high hp numbers on boost because of its bigger displacement, but the transmission it comes with will not work in a swap, so you'll need a transmission anyways, and the 5 speed would not nescessarily hold you back, seeing as the 6 speed is geared for high revs, not the k24s low 7600 redline. |
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| type_r_project |
| I don't mind extra work. I don't inted to treat my vehicle like crap.:) if i turbo my engine, I'd take care of it.:thumbup: And I'd definately garage it during the winter. I'll just by a POS for next winter. But I think I want to get a K24A2 for the swap. The lower compression would make it less tricky to boost. Anyone have any sugestions for a reputable shop that can tune it good? Speedtech pr AFI perhaps? |
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| Silverbane |
There are multiple people running the k20z3 with turbos and superchargers over on 8th civic.
Seems like a solid engine even if the compression ratio is 11.0:1 |
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| SpeedwayRacing |
Speedway is actually involved in a build on a purpose built turbo K20R road racing car at the moment. We have found that with proper tuning the K20A2 will actually take a lot of boost without major issues. We are talking 15+ psi on a 100% stock engine. But then again the engine is tuned on the safe side to ensure it can run for hours at wide open throttle with no problems.
Personally I would recommend the K24 because of its lower costs and the fact you can rebuild the head using a aftermarket valvetrain and end up with a engine pushing well over 230whp. |
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| Jayturbo |
SINCE WHEN ARE HONDA TRANNY"S WEAK?
WTF
Instead of putting a k20/k24 in your car why don't you just put a bullet in your head and save yourself all the stress and financial headaches now? |
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| SpeedwayRacing |
| The Syncros are a little weak for people that have no clue how to drive a manual tranny. Aside from that its all good. GM syncromesh FTMFW :p |
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| zhao |
a lot of people have popped honda trannys that know how to drive. no idea how anyone can say they are strong.... maybe compared to a hyundai's tranny or something... but seriously, there are so many better built trannys out there its not even funny.
if you're dragging a honda, you are also probably going to be launching it pretty hard on slicks to make the most of the vehicle's potential. thats really not a good combo, weak components, hard launches...... pretty much guaranteed to break stuff even without really having any mods done.
as i've said before, i've seen a tranny popped at the track in a dc5 making under 200whp. there has been more then one tranny popped in dc5ab, and the cars weren't really that heavily modified, still NA. there has also been a 2-3 misshifts too that have cratered the engines. 4th gear shifts ending up in 2nd have happened more the once. not sure if thats a tranny fault, but its happened enough to make me wonder. just off the top of my head i know 2 engines died to that, one guy that caught his in time before it over reved.
so ya, there are worse trannys, but seriously, no idea how anyone can say they are strong or really well made or whatever. remember 3rd gear grind? thats a problem spanning 15+ years. |
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| SpeedwayRacing |
| Thats really more of a D series problem, and the only reason you see it is because people fail to rev match down shifts over a long period of time. I guess I don't follow drag racing and thats where you see all of these tranny failures. likely on cars with aftermarket axels and drag slicks. I personally have yet to have a issue with any of my transmissions. Who knows, maybe both me and the guys that I race with are all just really lucky for some reason. |
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| zhao |
k series have the same issue with gear grind, I don't think it matters how people drive it either since people have complained about it right off the bat when they bought their dc5 new. Acura actually admitted to a fault with it and did have a fix for it in the rsx, i forget the details of it since i never had to have it done, but i believe it involved replacing some of the gears and a few other parts. this was after years of giving people print out directions for how to shift a manual car when they complained about 3rd gear grind lol (thx acura). honda canada has never admitted a fault to my knowledge with any honda badged product, just k series acura's.
i also personally couldn't care less about drag racing, but i know enough people that do and follow their experiences and its what most people seem to care about so its probably more relative to talk about drag experiences then track in this thread about modding hondas. its also easily more stressful on a tranny to drag then track race. |
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| 95IntegraRS |
| My C5 transmission is pretty bullet proof. |
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| type_r_project |
| :drama: Wow this thread is producing a lot of different opinions. Thanx for all your input. This has been both informative and educational. As for the trannys, people have been telling me that Honda trannys are weak, maybe I'm one of those lucky people. My car's bone stock right now so I won't find out about any tranny malfunctions until I take it to the track after the mods are finished (est time 2 years, saving money and labour). As for daily driving, I haven't experienced or heard any problems with my EM2's tranny. The spoon tranny idea might be something worth looking into though. Cheers:beer: hope to hear more from you. |
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| 95IntegraRS |
I don't think Honda transmissions are weak in any sense of the word. If you were to compare the transmission in my ITR vs. the one in my FD, I think the one in my Honda is far superior in terms of build design and power capacity.
I've heard much the same about the S2K transmission and the K series transmission. |
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| type_r_project |
quote:
Originally posted by Jayturbo
SINCE WHEN ARE HONDA TRANNY"S WEAK?
WTF
Instead of putting a k20/k24 in your car why don't you just put a bullet in your head and save yourself all the stress and financial headaches now?
:lol: :lol: :lol: You need a :beer: |
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| Jayturbo |
I have seen my fair share of honda trannys develope some issues going from 2-3. You wont have any tranny problems as long as you A) use synchromesh and B) drive like a white person
Considering that midtown is snapping axles in half like its going out of fashion and still haven't had a tranny failure...
Nevermind the thread on honda tech about this subject where the general outcome was that there is dozens of people running 400-600whp on stock honda b series tranny's, without any issues.
I'm the Honda guru, I'm always right, this is something that has been discussed elsewhere much more in depth. |
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| Holset Hatch |
the b-series trans is the best manual trans honda made. lots of guy's are having problems with the k stuff, and even the h stuff is not so hot. thats one of the reasons that h/f2b kits are gaining popularity(well that and gear ratio's)
most high hp honda guys are saying that around the 7-800hp mark the factory b trans are done. there's a few gear options for both k and b. b being liberty trans and mfactory is working on a affordable set thats in the testing stages. k i am not too sure of what's out there, but there's some.
if the spoon tranny is anything like their crate motors, it's not worth the $. |
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| SpeedwayRacing |
| Nothing Spoon is really worth the money IMO. I can find a better version of everything for half the price. |
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| 2ndgenlude |
| h trannys had a tsb out on them for the shift fork. they all grind into 5th eventually. some worse then others. my k tranny is notchy too. honda trannys can take a beating, but they arn't the nicest to drive. |
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| Silverbane |
quote:
Originally posted by 2ndgenlude
h trannys had a tsb out on them for the shift fork. they all grind into 5th eventually. some worse then others. my k tranny is notchy too. honda trannys can take a beating, but they arn't the nicest to drive.
Honda just released the TSB for the 3rd gear issue on the K series tranny. Supposed to take care of the 2nd and 3rd gear notchyness.
Still wish they got rid of the rev hang associated with the DBW! |
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| 2ndgenlude |
ya, for the 3rd gear pop out on the si's. supposely they made a new 3rd gear synchro that actually works lol. they fixed it on the 08's i guess since they weren't included in the tsb.
and god do i ever hate rev hang. |
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| Silverbane |
quote:
Originally posted by 2ndgenlude
ya, for the 3rd gear pop out on the si's. supposely they made a new 3rd gear synchro that actually works lol. they fixed it on the 08's i guess since they weren't included in the tsb.
and god do i ever hate rev hang.
Yes, so do I. This is by far one of the most difficult standards I have driven to get the hang of. Maybe i-pro or whatever it is called will help us out.
What color is your FG? |
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| 2ndgenlude |
| mines black. i wanted FBP but they had none on the lot. and hondata said they arn't touching the rev hang issue for some reason. at least i think i saw something saying that on 8thcivic. im sure some company will come out with something though as enough people are complaining about it. |
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