| probetunerforlife |
| i believe that the horsepower number is not as useful since torque is what moves you and horse power is a math formula calculated from your torque. what is everyones opion on this one. |
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| ChromeDragon |
All depends on how you're tuning your car. I've always been on the torque bandwagon myself though, if you don't have useable torque I don't give a shit if you have 2000hp, you're not going to move!
Chromey |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by probetunerforlife
i believe that the horsepower number is not as useful since torque is what moves you and horse power is a math formula calculated from your torque. what is everyones opion on this one.
Torque is indeed what you drive. Torque is what sinks you in your seat off the line. Torque is fun. :bigthumbup:
Horsepower = (Torque x RPM) / 5250
Without decent torque you are behind the eight ball when it comes to making horsepower. |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
How does the saying go?
" Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. " |
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| vr6T |
| HP = (Torque*RPM)/5252) |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by lude_boy93
How does the saying go?
" Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. "
Hey, I always say that! But it was getting a little old.....so go ahead, I'm gonna stick with "High Rev Torque is for Bitches".
Chromey |
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| Loose |
HP is what maters, along with torque curve.
The actual torque peak amount is just a number. |
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| SlowAzzPorsche911T |
| low rev torque is for people who want a REAL car, none of this peak torque at 7-9 grand bullshit, the peak torque on a hemi charger from the factory is 4400ish and the peak h.p is 5400ish, the porsche 911 turbo's peak torque is around the 3 grand range and the h.p peak at about 6 grand, when your torque is more then your h.p you know you have a REAL car :bigthumbup: |
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| REFLUX |
so what is the PURPOSE of horsepower???
Torque is what gets you going...what does HP do?? KEEP you going? |
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| SupraTTBlitz |
| Torque is wat gets you moving, horsepower is wat pulls you once you start to move, with out horsepower you wouldn't be able to gain any speed. |
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| Insomniac |
you guys have it all wrong...
Torque allows you to pull a horse trailer, Horse Power wins races :bigthumbup: |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
you guys have it all wrong...
Torque allows you to pull a horse trailer, Horse Power wins races :bigthumbup:
Well looking at those trucks out at the BOI, apparently torque enables you to do both. 12 seconds in a god damn 1 ton!!! I would love to build up an old turbo diesel jetta or something for huge numbers. Throw on a little propane injection, bigger turbo, 50psi and BAM, your hitting single digits in the 1/4. |
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| SlowAzzPorsche911T |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Insomniac
you guys have it all wrong...
Torque allows you to pull a horse trailer, Horse Power wins races :bigthumbup:
Well looking at those trucks out at the BOI, apparently torque enables you to do both. 12 seconds in a god damn 1 ton!!! I would love to build up an old turbo diesel jetta or something for huge numbers. Throw on a little propane injection, bigger turbo, 50psi and BAM, your hitting single digits in the 1/4.
i'll help :bigthumbup: |
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| colossus |
| 235 pounds torque :bigthumbup: |
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| LowTEC |
| 350+ ft/lbs of torque, but I want more :bigthumbup: |
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| shorti |
quote:
"Grape Ape Racing"
Horsepower
The definition of 1 horsepower is the ability to do 33,000 pounds-feet of work in one minute. So horsepower is a measurement of torque over time. The measurement of horsepower was invented by James Watt when he replaced horses turning a water pump with a steam engine and wanted to know how many horses the engine could replace in order to rate the engines power. He figured that a horse could pull with 180 lbs. of force. The horse traveled in a circle with a 12 ft. radius, and could make 144 complete revolutions in 1 hour. This means that the horse traveled 181 feet per minute. 180 lbs. of force times 181 feet equals 32,580 pounds-feet of work in 1 minute. Watt rounded that up to 33,000 pounds-feet of work in 1 minute.
Figuring Engine Horsepower
Watt's definition of horsepower is a horse pulling on lever, so the power was applied to the lever. An engine does not work like this, the power is made at the crankshaft. So to know the horsepower of an engine you will need to imagine a 1 ft. lever at the crankshaft and figure the circumference of that one ft. lever and how many rotations per minute it is traveling. A 1 ft lever will have a circumference of 6.2831853 ft., so the formula for hp would look like this:
HP = (6.2831853 × RPM × Torque) ÷ 33,000
And can be simplified to:
HP = (rpm × Torque) ÷ 5252
By using this formula you can see that HP and Torque curves will always cross at 5252 rpm. To help put horsepower into perspective, imagine two engine that both make 300 ft. lbs. of torque One engine makes it at 3000 rpm and the other makes it at 6000 rpm. Which one makes more power? The one revving at 6000, because the same amount of torque is being used twice as fast. Gearing the engine down to the the same 3000 rpm will double the torque at the final drive making it 600 ft. lbs. If both engines had the same final drive, they would be able to do the exact same amount of work (300 ft. lbs. worth), but the 6000 rpm engine will do it in 1/2 the time.
Torque
Torque is simple, imagine a 1 ft. lever with 1 lb. of force pushing on it. That is 1 pound ft. of torque. The formula to figure torque from a known HP is:
Torque = (5252 × HP) ÷ rpm
Brake Horsepower and Torque
Dynamometers measure torque by use of a brake. Brake torque is simply a measurement of how much resistance is needed to hold the engine at a steady rate of speed. This is commonly referred to as a step test, usually taken in 250 rpm increments. Brake Horsepower (BHP) is then figured using the above formula. The problem with brake torque is that it is not effected a measurable amount by the inertia of the engines rotating and reciprocating parts. For an acceleration engine, there is a better way.
Acceleration Horsepower
For an acceleration engine, you want to measure power as the engine is accelerating. You don't only care how much HP the engine has, you also want to know how fast it can rev up. This will take into account all of the inertia of the rotating and reciprocating parts. So instead of a brake holding the engine at a steady speed, the brake holds the engine at a steady acceleration rate, 300 rpm per second and 600 rpm per second are commonly used. Hp and Torque readings will be lower, due to less braking force required, but the mass of all the moving parts will be better measured. You could have two engines put out the exact same brake power readings, but if one has much lighter pistons crank and rods, it have more acceleration power and be quicker at the track. To put this into perspective, it is easy to lose 6 lbs. from a stock small-block Chevy crankshaft and actually make it stronger in the process. My Camaro has a 3.27:1 1st gear ratio and a 3.50:1 rear gear ratio making a total ratio of 11.445:1. Losing 6 lbs. rotating weight is like losing over 68 lbs. off the car in 1st gear. That's just the crank, using lighter pistons, rods, pins, and aluminum flywheel can get the rotating and reciprocating mass over 20 lbs. lighter. Now 229 lbs. lighter in 1st gear is a big difference. You see why people get crazy to loose a few lbs.
Building Power
Many engine builders will say that torque is what wins races and too much emphasis is put on horsepower. It is true that torque is what actually pushes the car, but torque and horsepower are directly related, you can't have one without the other. The chart below shows how you can increase the rpm range of an engine to get more horsepower, at the cost of torque, but still make more rear wheel torque.
Engine Horsepower @ RPM Flywheel ft. lbs. @ Peak Horsepower Final Drive Ratio Rear Wheel ft. lbs. @ 1000 RPM
First 500 @ 6000 437.6 6:1 2625.6
Second 550 @ 8000 361.1 8:1 2888.8
In this example, both engine have the same rear wheel speed, but the higher rpm engine, which makes less flywheel torque, makes more rear wheel torque. Torque does win races, but you need horsepower to put it to use, so saying torque is more important than horsepower is really a contradiction. For a street car, an 8000 rpm engine and steep gears are not practical, but for all out drag racing, build as much horsepower as you can and just gear it to suit. If you build the horsepower, the torque will be there through gearing. The engine with the most average hp for the rpm range used will have more average power, period.
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| IH8V8S |
:blink: I think one of the easiest ways to explain this, other than the novel above, is like this; torque is the twisting force created by the engine and horsepower is how quickly that twisting force can be applied. So a diesel making 500lb ft of torque and 225hp is a very powerful truck. However a Turbo honda making 600hp and 430ft lb makes almost the same twisting force but can apply it a lot more quickly. That's why Diesels tend not to be a "rev-happy" engine; because they have low horsepower compared to their torque. :wacko: Anybody follow?
Krazy Karl :wacko: |
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| SlowAzzPorsche911T |
quote:
Originally posted by LowTEC
350+ ft/lbs of torque, but I want more :bigthumbup:
:bigthumbup: :bigthumbup: |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by IH8V8S
:blink: I think one of the easiest ways to explain this, other than the novel above, is like this; torque is the twisting force created by the engine and horsepower is how quickly that twisting force can be applied. So a diesel making 500lb ft of torque and 225hp is a very powerful truck. However a Turbo honda making 600hp and 430ft lb makes almost the same twisting force but can apply it a lot more quickly. That's why Diesels tend not to be a "rev-happy" engine; because they have low horsepower compared to their torque. :wacko: Anybody follow?
Krazy Karl :wacko:
Well they also aren't high revving because of the fact that they run at 15:1 compression and up. They are built much MUCH stronger and are capable of taking alot more boost than 99% of gas jobs out there. The guy putting down 12's in the Dodge 1 ton was most likely running 50+psi of boost, I know he had propane injection, other than that I'm not too sure, I wish I'd had an opportunity to see under the hood of that beast! Anyone happen to see that Cummins N14 sitting at NADP's booth at the BOI(it was the huge black engine with orange cylinder heads on it. I tore one of those down in class back at NAIT, once we put it back together and slapped it onto the water brake dyno we found it putting out 463hp and 1980lb-ft of torque(running slightly higher boost than stock thanks to a tip from a fellow students dad). So that means this engine was running as much torque as about 20 SOHC 1.6L Civics, not too shabby huh? Sadly the engine weighs more than a Civic so it's not feasible to put in passenger vehicle.
Anyhow, I'm not sure what I was talking about, but I just wanted to tell that story. Tearing that engine down was FUN!
Chromey |
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| MightyMidget |
its very simple....if you don't want, need, or like torque, and it isnt important to you buy a HONDA!!!!! Torqueless wonders of the world...
S |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by schlong69
its very simple....if you don't want, need, or like torque, and it isnt important to you buy a HONDA!!!!! Torqueless wonders of the world...
S
Ouch.... Not quite a knockout but a solid standing 8 count. :blink: |
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| ChromeDragon |
LoL, well he's speaking from experience of his family being ALL Honda back about 5 years ago. Now, well there isn't a Honda to be found on the premises! hehehe
Chromey :blink: |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
| I'd choose my torqueless Honda over a Grand Am any day! :D ........I could prob get more for my 93 than a new Grand Am anyways!! :bigthumbup: |
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| ChromeDragon |
quote:
Originally posted by lude_boy93
I'd choose my torqueless Honda over a Grand Am any day! :D ........I could prob get more for my 93 than a new Grand Am anyways!! :bigthumbup:
Sadly it's probably true....Honda owners are such dupes....LMAO j/k
It's actually just the Honda buyers. :bigthumbup: :crying: :angry: |
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| SlowAzzPorsche911T |
| they hold their value sure but why pay more... for less? :thefinger: heehe |
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| Magnum |
quote:
Originally posted by ChromeDragon
quote:
Originally posted by lude_boy93
How does the saying go?
" Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. "
Hey, I always say that! But it was getting a little old.....so go ahead, I'm gonna stick with "High Rev Torque is for Bitches".
Chromey
so i'm at 145lbs of torque at 6200rpms..... you calling me a bitch chromey :mellow:
Torque is the measurement of the strength of the rotational movement and determines how fast a car accelerates up to a required speed... if you have a car that weighs 4000lbs, then your going to need the extra torque to get your car moving... but if you have a civic.... your car only weighs like 1800lbs, your not going to really 'need' the extra torque because its not required to move that car up to the required speed, so best bet is to focus on hp because it will give you more speed at higher rpms.... but then again, it depends on what your looking for in the vehicle, if you want off the line power, go all torque.. but if your looking at 1/4 mile... hp wins the race..
thats my opinion anyways. :wacko: |
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| scooby_dooby |
don't worry man. it's just that honda-bashing is in around here, it's cause they know they're kick ass solid cars, that make more HP/litre than anyone else, they're cheap, well built and run forever.
and they also know that they would all have to kiss major ass, and take back everything they've ever said, if honda ever decided to turbo-charge one of it's cars.
i don't know why people can't get over that fact. like so what, Honda doesn't have a turbocharged car in it's line-up -- therefore they suck??? that's so weak, give credit where credit's due, good technology is good technology. |
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| SHIFT_AT_9000_RPMS |
| Yeah, what is up with the Honda bashing up in here? |
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| drastik |
I ain't even worried about it.
ppl can bash honda all they want.
the people who buy 'em, stick with 'em.
people who have owned one, know. |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by drastik
the people who buy 'em, stick with 'em.
people who have owned one, know.
werd |
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| Pro Drag |
quote:
Originally posted by drastik
I ain't even worried about it.
ppl can bash honda all they want.
the people who buy 'em, stick with 'em.
people who have owned one, know.
Kinda like DSM owners. :bigthumbup:
F0ck all the haters. |
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| scooby_dooby |
quote:
Originally posted by Pro Drag
F0ck all the haters.
double WERD! |
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